Is the Asterisk board intimidating?

[RJN]

Today I received an email requesting that I re-instate the Digg link on APOD's front page. I don't anticipate doing that, but the emailer made an interesting point that might be a key reason why more APODers do not become recurrent posters the Asterisk. This person says

In my opinion the discussion there is well above the level a "backyard" or amateur "astronomer" like myself would get involved in, those contributing seem professional and know what they're talking about.

I have heard others express similar sentiments. The emailer felt more comfortable posting to Digg because the level of discussion there was lower. The solution, in my opinion, is clearly NOT to lower the discussion level on the Asterisk -- clearly a high level of scientific accuracy on this discussion board is important. Still, there must be ways of making browsing APODers feel less intimidated. Does anyone have more thoughts as to how?

- RJN

[geckzilla]

My vote would be "I used to find it intimidating"

I have since humbly conceded to my own ignorance and post freely knowing one of the educated will enlighten me or correct me if I am wrong.

If you're an intimidated lurker reading this post, just jump in the pool quickly. It's cold but you get used to it.

[Amir]

I think it's not "Intimidating".
in this short time that i've been around, i ran into some topics i had no idea about, but reading other folk's posts, i (as a High school student) could totally understand.
Geckzilla is right. anyone who feels that the level of discussion is high should really get involved, cuz it would be a chance to upgrade & learn more. if you always run away to a "more comfortable" place, you'll always remain what you are.
thanks to educated people here, any backyard astronomer could become a better & more knowledgeable amateur astronomer.
sometimes i read a something for few times to understand, sometimes i didn't even understand it after that few times, so i had to follow the links or go back to my books. and then what i came here for happened: I LEARNED WHAT I DIDN'T KNOW BEFORE.

[Chris Peterson]

I have heard others express similar sentiments. The emailer felt more comfortable posting to Digg because the level of discussion there was lower. The solution, in my opinion, is clearly NOT to lower the discussion level on the Asterisk -- clearly a high level of scientific accuracy on this discussion board is important. Still, there must be ways of making browsing APODers feel less intimidated. Does anyone have more thoughts as to how?

It is common enough for people to find science intimidating. You must see it as a teacher; I know I do. I don't think there's anything we can do here about those who are so scared they leave after the first visit. But I think the board is set up to encourage questions and comments, with a good range of topic categories. The key to making people feel comfortable is to not embarrass them or make them feel stupid for asking a question. I try very hard to answer questions in a way that shouldn't make people uncomfortable about asking them. I think that's the most effective way to keep people coming back.

[RJN]

Yes, I do see intimidated students as a teacher. Further, when I tell people I am a scientist, I frequently get a similarly-based "I hated/failed science (or math) in high school" response. I realize that this response is meant to be modest and deferential, and so I take no offense, but I do worry that it reinforces a stereotype where science is "too hard" and scientists are "uncool". Hopefully, APOD is a small step in the "science can be cool" direction.

I do see that Chris and many people on this board are exceedingly polite in their responses, which I think is just the right tone. So long as questions are sincere and asked respectfully, they should be answered accurately and politely, no matter the level.

Playing devil's advocate, though, I wonder how I would feel posting on a music board where I knew professional musicians posted. I am not a musician, and I can see feeling intimidated there myself. And I don't know how that could be appeased.

One thought is that perhaps we might create an "amateur only" forum where people having only limited astronomical knowledge can share their raw thoughts, besides a very active moderator. But maybe not.

- RJN

[hstarbuck]

I voted yes, the board is intimidating--but this is a good thing. The level is where it should be or else I would not visit. I am a high school science teacher (physics, physical science, Earth) with a undergrad in Physics currently getting a MS in Geoscience--and I am intimidated. This is because I have gaps in my knowledge and understanding of the universe--EVERYBODY DOES. I am careful to post my mind only after examining it because of the level of knowledge here; nobody wants to get shut down so I try not to set this up. Most topics are extremely esoteric, but I visit to increase my knowledge as well as to be entertained by squabbling scientists who each claim they are correct. In the end, the truth will come out of these discussions. I also visit because sometimes I am too lazy to look stuff up myself from even more esoteric articles.

[owlice]

Playing devil's advocate, though, I wonder how I would feel posting on a music board where I knew professional musicians posted. I am not a musician, and I can see feeling intimidated there myself. And I don't know how that could be appeased.

One thought is that perhaps we might create an "amateur only" forum where people having only limited astronomical knowledge can share their raw thoughts, besides a very active moderator. But maybe not.

One very active classical music board with which I am familiar has a "Classical Music for Beginners" forum which gets some traffic (more in the past than it's currently getting); it also has a "Name That Tune?" forum, because the board got a lot of one-off posts from people who'd heard something and started looking online for a way to identify the piece. In addition to that, it has an "Introductions" forum so new members can tell others a little about themselves. So, no need to feel intimidated on that music board; the board owner has worked hard to make the board appealing to those who've heard one or two classical works and have decided they want to explore more. (They are quickly whisked away by experienced posters to the other forums for indoctrination or attempts thereof. )

I suppose the equivalent of "Name That Tune?" for the Asterisk would be "What did I see?," a place where people can ask, "What the heck WAS that in the sky that I saw?." Asterisk has seen some threads like that, and it might be helpful to have a place for them.

(I'm reminded of the website "What's that bug?" Searching the web to find a way to identify something, anything, is how people learn what they are looking at/hearing/etc., I suppose!)

[makc]

those contributing seem professional and know what they're talking about.

I knew I was going to need this smiley

[geckzilla]

Sorting out who really knows and who only thinks he knows could be a fun game for beginners, mak.

[rstevenson]

Whether one finds any particular forum intimidating depends entirely on one's inner resources. If you're self-confident to a ridiculous degree -- like me -- then no forum is intimidating. If you enjoy all aspects of learning, including stubbing your toe occasionally, then no forum is intimidating.

Owlice's suggestion of a What Did I See section seems like a good way to get people to hang around long enough to become unintimidated.

Rob

PS
I see I've amassed 221 posts in two years, and the first year of that I was pretty quiet. This place'll suck you right in if you're not careful.

[neufer]

those contributing seem professional and know what they're talking about.

• " A professional; is someone who can do his best work when he doesn't feel like it." - Alistair Cooke
  
  http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap050616.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______ The Scarlet Letter (1850) by Nathaniel Hawthorne

<<The only surgeon was one who combined the occasional exercise
of that noble Art with the daily and habitual flourish of a razor.
To such a professional body Roger Chillingworth was a brilliant acquisition.

He soon manifested his familiarity with the ponderous and imposing machinery of antique physic;
in which every remedy contained a multitude of far-fetched and heterogeneous ingredients，
as elaborately compounded as if the proposed result had been the Elixir of Life.

In his Indian captivity， moreover， he had gained much knowledge of the properties of native herbs and roots; nor did he conceal from his patients that these simple medicines， Nature’s boon to the untutored savage， had quite as large a share of his own confidence as the European Pharmacopoeia， which so many learned doctors had spent centuries in elaborating.>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[list]A PROFESSIONAL
__ {anagram}
RAF POLONAISES[/list]

[owlice]

I see I've amassed 221 posts in two years, and the first year of that I was pretty quiet. This place'll suck you right in if you're not careful.

Ho, boy, you are right about that! I managed to be quiet for years, and then.... an Asterisk monster was born. Rawr!!

[owlice]

In my opinion the discussion there is well above the level a "backyard" or amateur "astronomer" like myself would get involved in, those contributing seem professional and know what they're talking about.

I wonder if changing the "Discuss" link to "Comment" (or "Comments") would help. One might not feel up to a discussion, but making a comment -- as one would do on Digg -- may be easier/less intimidating.

[Amir]

and the first year of that I was pretty quiet

I managed to be quiet for years

is there a reason for being quite? why did you have to keep that monster inside?

[RJN]

OK. I will try the term "Comment" in place of "Discuss" for a few days next week and see what happens.

[owlice]

"Comments" might be even more enticing; even if someone thinks he has nothing to say, he might be enticed to read what others have said!

[RJN]

OK. I just changed them (Su, M, & Tu) to "Comments".

[neufer]

Playing devil's advocate, though, I wonder how I would feel posting on a music board where I knew professional musicians posted. I am not a musician, and I can see feeling intimidated there myself.

<<Sir Frederick William Herschel, KH, FRS, (15 November 1738 – 25 August 1822) was a British astronomer, technical expert, and a composer. Herschel became most famous for the discovery of the planet Uranus in addition to several of its major moons such as Titania and Oberon. He also discovered infrared radiation and composed numerous musical works, including 24 symphonies and many concertos, as well as some church music.

Herschel was born in the Electorate of Hanover one of ten children of Isaak and Anna Ilse Herschel. In 1755 the Hanoverian Guards regiment, in whose band Wilhelm and his brother Jakob were engaged as oboists, was ordered to England. He played the cello and harpsichord in addition to the oboe and later the organ. Herschel moved to Sunderland in 1761 when Charles Avison immediately engaged him as first violin and soloist for his Newcastle orchestra, where he played for one season. In ‘Sunderland in the County of Durham April 20 1761’ he wrote his symphony no. 8 in C minor. He was head of the Durham Militia band 1760–61 and visited the home of Sir Ralph Milbanke at Halnaby Hall in 1760, where he wrote two symphonies, as well as giving performances himself.

After Newcastle he moved to Leeds and Halifax where he was organist at St John the Baptist church. He became organist of the Octagon Chapel, Bath, a fashionable chapel in a well-known Spa, in which town he was also Director of Public Concerts. He was appointed as the organist in 1766 and gave his introductory concert on 1 January 1767. As the organ was still incomplete he showed off his versatility by performing his own compositions including a violin concerto, an oboe concerto and a harpsichord sonata. The organ was completed in October 1767. In 1780, Herschel was appointed director of the Bath orchestra, with his sister often appearing as soprano soloist.

Herschel's music led him to an interest in mathematics and lenses. His interest in astronomy grew stronger after 1773 and he made the acquaintance of the English Astronomer Royal Nevil Maskelyne. He started building his own reflecting telescopes and would spend up to 16 hours a day grinding and polishing the speculum metal primary mirrors.>>

<<Brian Harold May, CBE (born 19 July 1947) is a British musician and astrophysicist most widely known as the lead guitarist of the rock band Queen. May earned a PhD in astrophysics in 2007 and is currently the chancellor of Liverpool John Moores University. As a guitarist he uses his home built guitar, "Red Special".

• 

Brian May, the only child of Harold and Ruth May, was born in Hampton, London and attended Hampton Grammar School. During this time he formed his first band with vocalist and bassist Tim Staffell named Nineteen Eighty-Four after George Orwell's novel of the same name. He graduated from Hampton Grammar School with ten GCE Ordinary Levels and four Advanced Levels in Physics, Mathematics, Applied Mathematics and Additional Mathematics.

He has stated in interviews that he suffered from depression in the late 1980s, even to the point of contemplating suicide,for reasons having to do with his troubled first marriage and his perceived failure as a husband and a dad, his father Harold's death, and Freddie Mercury's illness. May is now married to former Eastenders actress Anita Dobson.

May studied physics at Imperial College London, graduating with a BSc (Hons) degree in both Physics and Mathematics and ARCS with Upper Second-Class Honours. He then proceeded to study for a PhD degree, also at the Imperial College London departments of Physics and Mathematics, and was part way through this PhD programme, studying reflected light from interplanetary dust and the velocity of dust in the plane of the Solar System, when Queen became successful. He abandoned his physics doctorate but did co-author two scientific research papers: MgI Emission in the Night-Sky Spectrum (1972) and An Investigation of the Motion of Zodiacal Dust Particles (Part I) (1973), which were based on May's observations at the Teide Observatory in Tenerife. He is the co-author of Bang! – The Complete History of the Universe with Patrick Moore and Chris Lintott, which was published in October 2006. More than 30 years after he started his research, in October 2007 he completed his PhD thesis in astrophysics, entitled A Survey of Radial Velocities in the Zodiacal Dust Cloud, passed his viva voce, and performed the required corrections. He officially graduated at the postgraduate awards ceremony held in the Royal Albert Hall, on the afternoon of Wednesday 14 May 2008.

On 17 November 2007, Brian May was appointed Chancellor of Liverpool John Moores University, taking over from Cherie Blair, and installed in 2008.

Asteroid 52665 Brianmay was named in his honour on 18 June 2008 on the suggestion of Sir Patrick Moore (probably influenced by the asteroid's provisional designation of 1998 BM30).>>

[owlice]

OK. I just changed them (Su, M, & Tu) to "Comments".

I hope it works!! Will be curious to see.

neufer, and Einstein played the violin.

and the first year of that I was pretty quiet

I managed to be quiet for years

is there a reason for being quite? why did you have to keep that monster inside?

Because if I didn't keep the monster inside, the board would have had what it has now: a monster!

Amir, that's the second time I've been asked that. My initial answer was along the lines of... it just didn't occur to me to get involved here. I didn't have any questions I wanted answered (I am pretty good about researching questions I have, and the web has lots of good resources for astronomy) and I'm not an astronomer nor do I play one on TV (I'd have had to be WAY cooler to be an astronomer, because they are very cool!) so can't contribute answers to questions others have (and mainly wouldn't, even if I thought I knew the answer, because someone else much more qualified will do so, and better and more completely than I could). I'm pretty sure that's not the whole answer, though, and am still working on it.

[neufer]

and Einstein played the violin.

Not professionally.

[owlice]

True, that!

[60moo]

Playing devil's advocate, though, I wonder how I would feel posting on a music board where I knew professional musicians posted. I am not a musician, and I can see feeling intimidated there myself. And I don't know how that could be appeased.

A very successful, growing, and well-moderated website dedicated to the classical guitar - http://www.delcamp.us - has a membership base consisting of newbies, right up to full-time teachers and professional performers.

Anyone asking a question is almost guaranteed to receive an immediate, polite and accurate answer. Intimidation is not even an issue. It seems to be in the nature of people to actually want to help those who have a query, no matter how "dumb" it may appear to the person who is asking. The site has an "Introduce Yourself" section, which I can attest comes in very handy, as it gives perspective when formulating one's replies.

As for Music itself, one can learn the basic theory and have a pretty strong grasp of the subject within a few years. We can all relate to it. It's also a field with a fair degree of subjectivity - your favourite composer, composition, performer or make of instrument could easily be my idea of musical Hell . Thankfully, this doesn't stop people asking, or expressing their opinions!

Of course, Astronomy is not the exact parallel of Music. But somehow, the Delcamp thread works in accommodating all types.

Moo.

[neufer]

Of course, Astronomy is not the exact parallel of Music.
But somehow, the Delcamp thread works in accommodating all types.

Moo.

<<Musica Universalis (lit. universal music, or music of the spheres) is an ancient philosophical concept that regards proportions in the movements of celestial bodies—the Sun, Moon, and planets—as a form of musica (the Medieval Latin name for music). This 'music' is not literally audible, but a harmonic and/or mathematical and/or religious concept. (In 2006, an experiment conducted by Greg Fox divided the orbital periods of the planets in half again and again until they were literally audible. The resultant piece was "Carmen of the Spheres".)

The Greek mathematician and astronomer Pythagoras is frequently credited with originating the concept, which stemmed from his semi-mystical, semi-mathematical philosophy and its associated system of numerology of Pythagoreanism. According to Johannes Kepler, the connection between geometry (and sacred geometry), cosmology, astrology, harmonics, and music is through musica universalis. At the time, the Sun, Moon, and planets were thought to revolve around Earth in their proper spheres. The most thorough and imaginative description of the concept can be found in Dante's Divine Comedy. The spheres were thought to be related by the whole-number ratios of pure musical intervals, creating musical harmony. Johannes Kepler used the concept of the music of the spheres in his Harmonice Mundi in 1619, relating astrology (especially the astrological aspects) and harmonics.



The three branches of the Medieval concept of musica were presented by Boethius in his book De Musica:

• * Musica Universalis (sometimes referred to as musica mundana)
  * musica humana (the internal music of the human body)
  * musica instrumentalis (sounds made by singers and instrumentalists)>>

"Music of the Spheres" is an episode of The Outer Limits. It first aired on 9 May 1997, during the third season.

• Opening narration: “For years we have searched for the answer to an eternal question, "Are we alone?" As yet, there has been no answer. Or perhaps the answer is only for those with the facility to hear it.”

Devon Taylor, a young physics student, picks up a strange signal during his work at a radio observatory. He believes that he can hear a pattern in it, but none of his older colleagues can hear it. Taylor’s younger sister, Joyce Taylor, plays the tape and enjoys the sound so much she plays it at a rave. When Devon finds her at the rave, everyone there is infected with skin deformities. All the teens are quarantined at a hospital, but when they are separated from the music on the tape they all experience severe pain and withdrawal symptoms. Devon and his superiors are left with no choice but to let the patients listen to the tape until they can figure out the rest of the transmitted message. They locate that the source of this message is from a distant world and is in fact artificial in origin which implies it was sent from a intelligent source. The military at this point declare that they must assume that they are under attack from this new threat and must proceed as such.

Devon is later reviewing photographs taken of stars at different periods in time and discovers that the star of the alien world went ultraviolet 40 years in the past and brings this information to his superiors and the military. They then realise that their sun is changing to this spectrum, heralded by increased solar activity and that the noise/music is being transmitted to change the life on earth so it can adapt to the new conditions, and that the alien transmission is in a sense a humanitarian effort. Once this is realised the richer governments of the world send up satellites to transmit the noise over the poorer countries and more remote areas of the world to help the transition to this new phase of existence. The final scene begins with Devon's father, still human, entering his daughter's room and she tells him that she is sorry that that she won't be able to look beautiful in her prom dress, as the camera pans up showing her to be completely covered in a golden metallic substance which can be assumed to be her skin; but he replies telling her she will always be beautiful. Devon enters the room also in his new skin and tells her that it is time and they precede to go outside with Joyce's boyfriend and they watch the new sun appear in the sky with their faces filled with hope.

• Closing narration: “It is said that Music is a universal bridge, crossing the barriers of culture, age, and language. Perhaps, eventually, we will learn that it also spans those of time... and space.”>>

[wonderboy]

As far as im concerned I have opinions about astronomy. Those opinions are, on many occassions not all, completely the wrong opinion to have. So here I am, just recently signed up and I give my moneys worth on a subject, if someone like chris or neufer or anyone else for that matter turn around and explain to me the correct meaning of something which I have wrongly based my opinion on then I'm happy because they've cleared something up for me as well as having learned something new. I'm not intimidated, I jump in at the deep end and learn to swim quickly.

[owlice]

livemind, do you have any recommendations for ways to make Asterisk less inimidating for an eight-year-old? For anyone?

I hate to think that an eight-year-old would not feel welcome posing a question here! I think many posters here have children; I do, and I certainly welcome the opportunity to share the excitement of the subject with anyone regardless of age!