Hadron collider CERN
-
- 2+2=5
- Posts: 913
- Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:39 pm
- AKA: Swainy
- Location: The Earth, The Milky Way, Great Britain
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Edit: removed this post.....
Last edited by The Code on Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Always trying to find the answers
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Stars don't use fission, they use fusion.mark swain wrote:Split the Atom.. Minor power/energy that our sun and most stars use...
-
- 2+2=5
- Posts: 913
- Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:39 pm
- AKA: Swainy
- Location: The Earth, The Milky Way, Great Britain
Re: Hadron collider CERN
So how do black holes work bystander? and why does matter/energy seem to want to get back to a place we know nothing about?bystander wrote:Stars don't use fission, they use fusion.
Mark
Always trying to find the answers
- Chris Peterson
- Abominable Snowman
- Posts: 18460
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
- Contact:
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Black holes are essentially passive. They work like a rock works. The only difference is their density.mark swain wrote:So how do black holes work bystander? and why does matter/energy seem to want to get back to a place we know nothing about?
Matter doesn't "want" to get anywhere. Mass and space interact in the way we describe as "gravity", and that's all you need to explain a black hole. The fact that we don't yet understand the interior of a black hole (assuming there is an interior) doesn't change anything.
Chris
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Not sure what this has to do with my last statement, but if I knew how black holes work, I could be famous, maybe even rich. Nobody knows how black holes work. All we know is that they are objects so dense that nothing escapes their event horizon, but you have been told that before.mark swain wrote:So how do black holes work bystander? and why does matter/energy seem to want to get back to a place we know nothing about?
-
- G'day G'day G'day G'day
- Posts: 2881
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:04 am
- Location: Sydney Australia
Re: Hadron collider CERN
G'day
Bystander said
The research into ultra dense objects has shown properties that allows matter to escape UDBH via jets.
This is not a new idea. The process has been known for decades. Not only that the process puts a limit to the size of a UDBH.
http://arxiv.org/abs/0808.2813
Is there an upper limit to black hole masses?
Authors: Priyamvada Natarajan, Ezequiel Treister
(Submitted on 20 Aug 2008 (v1), last revised 31 Aug 2008 (this version, v2))
Bystander said
That is one school of thought.Not sure what this has to do with my last statement, but if I knew how black holes work, I could be famous, maybe even rich. Nobody knows how black holes work. All we know is that they are objects so dense that nothing escapes their event horizon, but you have been told that before.
The research into ultra dense objects has shown properties that allows matter to escape UDBH via jets.
This is not a new idea. The process has been known for decades. Not only that the process puts a limit to the size of a UDBH.
http://arxiv.org/abs/0808.2813
Is there an upper limit to black hole masses?
Authors: Priyamvada Natarajan, Ezequiel Treister
(Submitted on 20 Aug 2008 (v1), last revised 31 Aug 2008 (this version, v2))
Abstract: We make a case for the existence for ultra-massive black holes (UMBHs) in the Universe, but argue that there exists a likely upper limit to black hole masses of the order of $M \sim 10^{10} \msun$. We show that there are three strong lines of argument that predicate the existence of UMBHs: (i) expected as a natural extension of the observed black hole mass bulge luminosity relation, when extrapolated to the bulge luminosities of bright central galaxies in clusters; (ii) new predictions for the mass function of seed black holes at high redshifts predict that growth via accretion or merger-induced accretion inevitably leads to the existence of rare UMBHs at late times; (iii) the local mass function of black holes computed from the observed X-ray luminosity functions of active galactic nuclei predict the existence of a high mass tail in the black hole mass function at $z = 0$. Consistency between the optical and X-ray census of the local black hole mass function requires an upper limit to black hole masses. This consistent picture also predicts that the slope of the $M_{\rm bh}$-$\sigma$ relation will evolve with redshift at the high mass end. Models of self-regulation that explain the co-evolution of the stellar component and nuclear black holes naturally provide such an upper limit. The combination of multi-wavelength constraints predicts the existence of UMBHs and simultaneously provides an upper limit to their masses. The typical hosts for these local UMBHs are likely the bright, central cluster galaxies in the nearby Universe.
Harry : Smile and live another day.
- Chris Peterson
- Abominable Snowman
- Posts: 18460
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
- Contact:
Re: Hadron collider CERN
There is no research that suggests this. None. Zero. You have never posted a single reference to suggest that material escapes from black holes via jets.harry wrote:The research into ultra dense objects has shown properties that allows matter to escape UDBH via jets.
While much about jets still remains to be explained, their basic mechanism is well understood- they are the product of infalling material that gets redirected outwards along the spin axis of an object with a strong magnetic field. None of the material in a jet was ever inside the event horizon of a black hole.
Chris
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
Re: Hadron collider CERN
And it may not.harry wrote:G'day from the land of oz
The Hadron collider may find the smallest subatomic particle that makes up Protons and Neutrons.
This is quite interesting
http://webcast.cern.ch/index.html
http://lhc-first-beam.web.cern.ch/
-
- 2+2=5
- Posts: 913
- Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:39 pm
- AKA: Swainy
- Location: The Earth, The Milky Way, Great Britain
Re: Hadron collider CERN
How can you say that with any from of certainty?Chris Peterson wrote:None of the material in a jet was ever inside the event horizon of a black hole.
Does a black hole grow? At what rate? Does a black hole Strip Atoms down to base particles? And cast off unwanted parts?
Who,s to say that black holes are not the reason behind expansion? They make the complete opposite to a star ,, including space time? We see matter/energy in our universe but only 50% of the form it takes.. The other 50% is on the inside of a black hole..? A black hole is a mirror image of the big bang.?
If everything came from ''nothing'', then it should go back to ''nothing'' ?
Always trying to find the answers
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Quote "Does a black hole grow? At what rate? Does a black hole Strip Atoms down to base particles? And cast off unwanted parts? Who,s to say that black holes are not the reason behind expansion? They make the complete opposite to a star ,, including space time? We see matter/energy in our universe but only 50% of the form it takes.. The other 50% is on the inside of a black hole..? A black hole is a mirror image of the big bang.? "
Is it out of control to say : stop drinking.
and/or smoke some stuff???
Gee..??!!
Is it out of control to say : stop drinking.
![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
![Mr. Green :mrgreen:](./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif)
-
- G'day G'day G'day G'day
- Posts: 2881
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:04 am
- Location: Sydney Australia
Re: Hadron collider CERN
G'day Chris
You said
Do a bit of research into magnetic fields created by dense matter.
and then do a bit of research into instabilities such as the weibel instability.
This may help up along. There are a number of papers, that may give you a gist and allow you to become awear. I would pick a few papers to read but! that would make me bias.
Weibel instability
http://arxiv.org/find/all/1/all:+AND+We ... /0/all/0/1
You said
Mate you got it wrong big time.While much about jets still remains to be explained, their basic mechanism is well understood- they are the product of infalling material that gets redirected outwards along the spin axis of an object with a strong magnetic field. None of the material in a jet was ever inside the event horizon of a black hole.
Do a bit of research into magnetic fields created by dense matter.
and then do a bit of research into instabilities such as the weibel instability.
This may help up along. There are a number of papers, that may give you a gist and allow you to become awear. I would pick a few papers to read but! that would make me bias.
Weibel instability
http://arxiv.org/find/all/1/all:+AND+We ... /0/all/0/1
Harry : Smile and live another day.
- Chris Peterson
- Abominable Snowman
- Posts: 18460
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
- Contact:
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Because it's about as certain as anything can be. Jets are not formed from material inside a black hole. The basic mechanism behind jets is understood, and is found anywhere you have a fairly energetic rotating body with a magnetic field, and with infalling material. You don't need anything so exotic as a black hole.mark swain wrote:How can you say that with any from of certainty?Chris Peterson wrote:None of the material in a jet was ever inside the event horizon of a black hole.
A black hole grows if it matter falls into it. The rate is well described by theory (that is, the increase in diameter for a given increase in mass). A black hole without any material to feed it does not grow. This describes most of the black holes in the Universe. Indeed, without new matter, a black hole actually gets smaller, although the rate is very, very slow.Does a black hole grow? At what rate?
Unwanted? I don't know what that means. Nobody knows what state matter is in once it crosses the event horizon. However, we don't need to know anything about what goes on inside to understand what is happening outside.Does a black hole Strip Atoms down to base particles? And cast off unwanted parts?
As well say that the invisible purple unicorns are behind expansion. There are testable theories describing the mechanism of universal expansion, and AFAIK none of them involve black holes. If you want to suggest that black holes are the cause, back it up with theory. Otherwise it's meaningless speculation.Who,s to say that black holes are not the reason behind expansion?
Chris
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
- Chris Peterson
- Abominable Snowman
- Posts: 18460
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
- Contact:
Re: Hadron collider CERN
"Dense matter" does not create magnetic fields. Bodies made of high density matter may or may not have magnetic fields. Whether they do or not has nothing to do with their density.harry wrote:Mate you got it wrong big time.
Do a bit of research into magnetic fields created by dense matter.
Of course, none of this has anything to do with your incorrect understanding that jets are made of dense material, or come from the inside of event horizons.
Chris
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Assuming there are Black Holes.Chris Peterson wrote: The fact that we don't yet understand the interior of a black hole (assuming there is an interior) doesn't change anything.
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Density is relative, is it not?Chris Peterson wrote:
Of course, none of this has anything to do with your incorrect understanding that jets are made of dense material, or come from the inside of event horizons.
Re: Hadron collider CERN
I think the plutonium used in nuclear bombs could be described as rocklike.Chris Peterson wrote: Black holes are essentially passive. They work like a rock works.
- Chris Peterson
- Abominable Snowman
- Posts: 18460
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
- Contact:
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Yes, but in the context of this discussion, "dense" refers to the sort of matter found in very compact objects like neutron stars and black holes, also called compact matter. Jets are not made of such matter (actually, there's little evidence that compact matter even exists outside of the interior of very dense bodies, with the necessary gravitational fields to create it). Jets are nothing more than tenuous gas and dust consisting of perfectly ordinary matter.northstar wrote:Density is relative, is it not?
Chris
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
- Chris Peterson
- Abominable Snowman
- Posts: 18460
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
- Contact:
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Yeah. And like a black hole, you wouldn't ask how plutonium "works". No material is absolutely stable, of course. Even plutonium can be considered passive and rocklike for most purposes.northstar wrote:I think the plutonium used in nuclear bombs could be described as rocklike.Chris Peterson wrote: Black holes are essentially passive. They work like a rock works.
Chris
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
- Chris Peterson
- Abominable Snowman
- Posts: 18460
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
- Contact:
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Kind of like saying, "assuming there are stars". You'll not find many astronomers who have any significant doubt that black holes exist. There is just too much observational evidence, with those observations in perfect agreement with what theory predicts we should see. And the theory itself is General Relativity, which is superbly supported by multiple lines of evidence.northstar wrote:Assuming there are Black Holes.
The possibility that what we observe as black holes is actually something else is so small as to be unworthy of consideration in a general astronomy forum like this.
Chris
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Qute a difference between something seen and something imagined. Despite Einstein saying, "Imagination is more important than knowledge" there is no proof of any kind that Black Holes exist, so your comparison between Black Holes and stars is totally inappropriate. Also, there are reputable and accredited cosmologists worldwide who doubt, and even deny, the existance of Black Holes. Also, you judgement of what is fit for discussion in a general astronomy forum like this is totally inappropriate as that is responsibility of the moderators, is it not?Chris Peterson wrote:Kind of like saying, "assuming there are stars". You'll not find many astronomers who have any significant doubt that black holes exist. There is just too much observational evidence, with those observations in perfect agreement with what theory predicts we should see. And the theory itself is General Relativity, which is superbly supported by multiple lines of evidence.northstar wrote:Assuming there are Black Holes.
The possibility that what we observe as black holes is actually something else is so small as to be unworthy of consideration in a general astronomy forum like this.
Re:
And then we will be left to discover the Director or Directive Energy of those particles and dimensions?THX1138 wrote:Hi everybody....
I hope we discover the whole shabang, god particles, a gang of other dementions, worm wholes.
- Chris Peterson
- Abominable Snowman
- Posts: 18460
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:13 pm
- Location: Guffey, Colorado, USA
- Contact:
Re: Hadron collider CERN
By your logic, there is no proof that electrons exist, either. Most of what we observe in nature we observe indirectly. And the observations of black holes are extensive.northstar wrote:Qute a difference between something seen and something imagined. Despite Einstein saying, "Imagination is more important than knowledge" there is no proof of any kind that Black Holes exist, so your comparison between Black Holes and stars is totally inappropriate.
No there are not. Such a denial would remove all credibility. Perhaps what you meant to say is that there is a very small number of reputable cosmologists who are working with alternate theories in an effort to explain black holes.Also, there are reputable and accredited cosmologists worldwide who doubt, and even deny, the existance of Black Holes.
My judgment is my judgment. One need not be a moderator to have an opinion on what belongs here. I didn't suggest you should be banned. My point was only that the arguments against black holes are extremely technical, extremely difficult to understand (how's your tensor calculus, these days?), and really out of place on a forum like this that is mainly about general astronomical topics.Also, you judgement of what is fit for discussion in a general astronomy forum like this is totally inappropriate as that is responsibility of the moderators, is it not?
Chris
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
*****************************************
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
https://www.cloudbait.com
Re: Hadron collider CERN
The observations are of effects which may be caused by something. There is no proof whatsoever that Black Holes are causing the effects.Chris Peterson wrote: By your logic, there is no proof that electrons exist, either. Most of what we observe in nature we observe indirectly. And the observations of black holes are extensive.
Northstar wrote:Also, there are reputable and accredited cosmologists worldwide who doubt, and even deny, the existance of Black Holes.
I meant to say exactly what I said, and I will not use up space to repeat it. Please don't try to put words into my mouth as if you are an educator and I am a child. Your attitude of 'polite (misplaced) authority and compassion for the less intellectually gifted' is not endearing or attractive in any way.Chris Peterson wrote:No there are not. Such a denial would remove all credibility. Perhaps what you meant to say is that there is a very small number of reputable cosmologists who are working with alternate theories in an effort to explain black holes.
Northstar wrote:Also, your judgement of what is fit for discussion in a general astronomy forum like this is totally inappropriate as that is responsibility of the moderators, is it not?
I refer you back to "your attitude of polite (misplaced) authority and compassion for the less intellectually gifted is not endearing" nor is it in the least attractive or necessary in a forum such as this. Judge not, lest ye be judged.Chris Peterson wrote:My judgment is my judgment. One need not be a moderator to have an opinion on what belongs here. I didn't suggest you should be banned. My point was only that the arguments against black holes are extremely technical, extremely difficult to understand (how's your tensor calculus, these days?), and really out of place on a forum like this that is mainly about general astronomical topics.
-
- 2+2=5
- Posts: 913
- Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:39 pm
- AKA: Swainy
- Location: The Earth, The Milky Way, Great Britain
Re: Hadron collider CERN
bystander wrote: mark swain wrote:Split the Atom.. Minor power/energy that our sun and most stars use...
Stars don't use fission, they use fusion.
Chris Peterson wrote:Black holes are essentially passive. They work like a rock works. The only difference is their density.
Matter doesn't "want" to get anywhere. Mass and space interact in the way we describe as "gravity", and that's all you need to explain a black hole. The fact that we don't yet understand the interior of a black hole (assuming there is an interior) doesn't change anything.
Chris Peterson wrote:Black holes don't use anything for power. They don't consume energy.
My body,, on the surface of the little mass ''sun'' would weigh 1.5 tons.... What is the pressure that turns hydrogen into helium? via fusion... Now if we times that by 1 billion what happens to sub atomic particles then? If matter was not been stripped back to base elements and particles before passing past the event horizon, would there not be a bottle neck of matter clumped around a black hole? We no black holes grow,, And what is happening is a form of processing. turning heavy matter back to what it was before,,, it fussed inside a star.Chris Peterson wrote:A black hole grows if it matter falls into it. The rate is well described by theory (that is, the increase in diameter for a given increase in mass). A black hole without any material to feed it does not grow. This describes most of the black holes in the Universe. Indeed, without new matter, a black hole actually gets smaller, although the rate is very, very slow.
Always trying to find the answers
Re: Hadron collider CERN
Black holes happen to be the current best theoretical explanation for the effects observed. Kind of like how electrons are the current best theoretical match to the effects we observe in things like electronics and particle physics. If you've got a different theory for what's producing black-hole-like behaviour that astronomers observe, then propose it and back it up with observations that show it's a better theory. That's how science works.northstar wrote:The observations are of effects which may be caused by something. There is no proof whatsoever that Black Holes are causing the effects.Chris Peterson wrote: By your logic, there is no proof that electrons exist, either. Most of what we observe in nature we observe indirectly. And the observations of black holes are extensive.
Don't just stand there, get that other dog!