Devil's Tower (2009 July 29)

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keshlam
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Devil's Tower (2009 July 29)

Post by keshlam » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:33 am

I've been told that the local tribes object to that name for the hill, and would prefer that it be referred to as Bear Lodge. Since hearing that, I have tried to comply -- they _were_ here first, after all. I know, I know, fewer people would recognize it by that name... but I think a bit of a cultural educational effort might have been in order along with the discussion of its origin.

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Re: "Devil's Tower"

Post by Chris Peterson » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:03 am

keshlam wrote:I've been told that the local tribes object to that name for the hill, and would prefer that it be referred to as Bear Lodge. Since hearing that, I have tried to comply -- they _were_ here first, after all. I know, I know, fewer people would recognize it by that name... but I think a bit of a cultural educational effort might have been in order along with the discussion of its origin.
Its origin is in geological processes dating back 200 million years or more- far, far longer than there were any people to call it by any name. In the last few hundred years, a half dozen Indian tribes had a half dozen different names for it. That's fine. In my cultural tradition, and apparently the photographer's, it's called "Devil's Tower". It is the prerogative of the photographer to give his work any title he wishes.

(APOD is about astronomical images, not cultural education. Should the various asterisms seen in the image also be given alternate, and less familiar, names?)
Chris

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The Milky Way Over Devil's Tower (2009 July 29)

Post by apodman » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:11 am

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap090729.html

There really was a post here (which you will find below), and geckzilla indeed did not respond before I wrote it.
Last edited by apodman on Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Devil's Tower"

Post by geckzilla » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:51 am

You forgot one. What's up with you and that teapot, anyhow?
Just call me "geck" because "zilla" is like a last name.

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Re: "Devil's Tower"

Post by apodman » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:53 am

Chris Peterson wrote:Should the various asterisms seen in the image also be given alternate, and less familiar, names?
There's that teapot (the archer? - as opposed to that other centaur?) again.

Image

... and again in this APOD.
... and again in this APOD.
... and again in this APOD.
... and again in this APOD.

---
geckzilla wrote:You forgot one. What's up with you and that teapot, anyhow?
Didn't forget. Just took me a while to find it. Then I had to split my post to get in under the limit of 10 included URLs. Glad to see you're on the case. 'Me and that teapot' is just a harmless hobby - I picked one thing to drum into people's heads to give them something easy to recognize in the night sky. And it does keep appearing in these APODs. Plus how to locate the Lagoon Nebula above the spout. Apparently at least you have had it indelibly etched in your consciousness - now for the rest of the world. (Sky & Telescope drummed it into me a number of years ago.)
Last edited by apodman on Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Devil's Tower"

Post by geckzilla » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:07 pm

It was actually a complete coincidence as I remembered a post I made in that thread, hit the ego search to find the thread and see if anyone ever replied to it since I never checked up on it and then saw your post. It's true though, having a Chinese fiance, I will never get away from tea, teacups, teapots, teabags, tea leaves, or anything involving tea.
Just call me "geck" because "zilla" is like a last name.

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Re: "Devil's Tower"

Post by keshlam » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:20 pm

Re naming: "Devil's" does sound disrespectful to some (how would you feel if one of your holy sites was colloquially called Devil's Whatever?), so I'd have liked to at least see the alternate name mentioned. Not a big deal for me, but it seemed worth pointing out.

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Re: "Devil's Tower"

Post by apodman » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:31 pm

keshlam wrote:"Devil's" does sound disrespectful to some.
I once knew an electronic technician whose partner needed to tell him to kill the power during the final test of every unit, but he objected to the word "kill" and mentioned it every time. To my knowledge, he never got very far with his campaign to rid the language of that evil word. When I see Devil's Tower, all I think of is Richard Dreyfuss and his mashed potato sculpture, but I can still eat mashed potatoes without feeling disrespected.
Last edited by apodman on Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Devil's Tower"

Post by bystander » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:33 pm

keshlam wrote:Re naming: "Devil's" does sound disrespectful to some (how would you feel if one of your holy sites was colloquially called Devil's Whatever?), so I'd have liked to at least see the alternate name mentioned. Not a big deal for me, but it seemed worth pointing out.
There are over twenty tribes associated with Devil's Tower and probably at least that many names. Which tribe should we recognize and which name should we use? How about one of the Sioux names, Penis Mountain.

http://www.nps.gov/deto/historyculture/sacredsite.htm
http://www.nps.gov/deto/historyculture/ ... tories.htm

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"Evilest Word"

Post by neufer » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:37 pm

bystander wrote:
keshlam wrote:Re naming: "Devil's" does sound disrespectful to some (how would you feel if one of your holy sites was colloquially called Devil's Whatever?), so I'd have liked to at least see the alternate name mentioned. Not a big deal for me, but it seemed worth pointing out.
There are over twenty tribes associated with Devil's Tower and probably at least that many names. Which tribe should we recognize and which name should we use? How about one of the Sioux names, Penis Mountain.

http://www.nps.gov/deto/historyculture/sacredsite.htm
http://www.nps.gov/deto/historyculture/ ... tories.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devils_Tower_National_Monument wrote:
<<Devils Tower (Lakota: Mato Tipila, which means “Bear Tower”). The name Devil's Tower originated in 1875 during an expedition led by Col. Richard Irving Dodge when his interpreter misinterpreted the name to mean Bad God's Tower ("Malo" = "Bad" in Spanish). This was later shortened to the Devil's Tower. All information signs in that area use the name "Devils Tower", following a geographic naming standard whereby the apostrophe is eliminated. Tribes including the Arapaho, Crow, Cheyenne, Kiowa, Lakota, and Shoshone had cultural and geographical ties to the monolith before European and early American immigrants reached Wyoming. Their names for the monolith include: Aloft on a Rock (Kiowa), Bear's House (Cheyenne, Crow), Bear's Lair (Cheyenne, Crow), Bear's Lodge (Cheyenne, Lakota), Bear's Lodge Butte (Lakota), Bear's Tipi (Arapaho, Cheyenne), Tree Rock (Kiowa), and Grizzly Bear Lodge (Lakota). In 2005, a proposal to recognize the American Indian ties through the additional designation of the monolith as Bear Lodge National Historic Landmark met with opposition from the US Representative Barbara Cubin, arguing that a "name change will harm the tourist trade and bring economic hardship to area communities".>>
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Re: "Devil's Tower"

Post by neufer » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:21 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
keshlam wrote:I've been told that the local tribes object to that name for the hill, and would prefer that it be referred to as Bear Lodge. Since hearing that, I have tried to comply -- they _were_ here first, after all. I know, I know, fewer people would recognize it by that name... but I think a bit of a cultural educational effort might have been in order along with the discussion of its origin.
Its origin is in geological processes dating back 200 million years or more- far, far longer than there were any people to call it by any name.
Erosion has "recently" revealed a 65 million year old granite intrusion sitting upon 200 million year red sandstone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devils_Tower_National_Monument wrote:
<<The oldest rocks visible in Devils Tower National Monument were laid down in a shallow sea during the Triassic period, 225 to 195 million years ago. This dark red sandstone and maroon siltstone, interbedded with shale, can be seen along the Belle Fourche River. About 65 million years ago, during the Tertiary period, the Rocky Mountains and the Black Hills were uplifted. Magma rose through the crust, intruding into the existing sedimentary rock layers.>>
<<Over millions of years, the surrounding and overlying rock eroded away, leaving
[Devil’s Tower] standing 386 meters (15,200 inches) above the Belle Fourche River.>>
http://www.nps.gov/badl/faqs.htm wrote: Badlands National Park is located in the White River Badlands and was called mako sica (mako, land and sica, bad) by the Sioux Indians. The term badlands generally refers to an area that is difficult to travel through primarily because of the rugged terrain and lack of water.
The fascinating landscape within the park erodes at a rate of about 1 inch per year, providing an ever-changing landscape.>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Peterson wrote:In the last few hundred years, a half dozen Indian tribes had a half dozen different names for it. That's fine. In my cultural tradition, and apparently the photographer's, it's called "Devil's Tower". It is the prerogative of the photographer to give his work any title he wishes. (APOD is about astronomical images, not cultural education. Should the various asterisms seen in the image also be given alternate, and less familiar, names?)
<<The Lakota were originally referred to as the Dakota when they lived by the great lakes, however, because of European settlement they were pushed away from the great lakes region and later called themselves the Lakota which became part of the Sioux. After their adoption of the horse, their society centered on the buffalo hunt with the horse.>>

I would hope that a wise Lakota Decoder with the richness of his experiences would more often
than not reach a better solution than a white male officer who hasn’t lived that life. :wink:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devils_Tower_National_Monument wrote:
<<Devils Tower (Lakota: Mato Tipila, which means “Bear Tower”).
The name Devil's Tower originated in 1875 during an expedition led by Col. Richard Irving Dodge
when his interpreter misinterpreted the name to mean Bad God's Tower ("Malo" = "Bad" in Spanish).
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/lakota.htm wrote:
<<Among the Lakota, there are many interesting myths and legends which are used to explicate their ideas about the cosmos, as is the case among many cultures. According to mythographer James LaPointe, "the ancient Lakota wise men said that all heavenly bodies exert influences upon life on Earth, and the destinies of individual life are at all times under the spell of the sun, moon, and stars." LaPointe also suggests, "... they imparted their knowledge to posterity through oral narratives and object lessons. One star cluster was called Pa yamini pa, 'a monster with three heads.' "

The Lakota have one fascinating myth which tells a great deal about their astronomical beliefs. According to this legend, Fallen Star, a supernatural hero, was the son of the North Star and a Lakota woman. (Interestingly, in Western mythography, the morning star or "Lucifer" is known as the "fallen star" or "the bright star cast out of heaven.") Fallen Star was said to be a member of the Maghpia Oyate or Cloud People and to be a special protector of the Lakota. His mother had lived with North Star in the clouds, but fell to Earth when she made the mistake of trying to dig up a plant growing in the cloud world - something she had been warned against. The North Star now broods in immobile solitude over the loss of his beloved Lakota maiden.

Tupun Shawin (the red-cheeked maid) was found by a group of boy hunters while she was lying unconscious after she had fallen from the cloud world. Her child was nursing from her "vigorously." The boys did not know if she was a cloud or spirit woman and so left her alone. But they did not want to abandon the helpless infant, so they brought it back to the village. The mysterious baby was named Fallen Star and given to a lonely, barren woman in the village. He matured very quickly, and became aware of a special destiny. He told others in the village that he was the child of a bright star in the heavens, and then told his adopted mother that he had to return to his father's place in the sky. He is said to be there now, watching over the Lakotas, his adoptive people.>>

Lakota people call the Milky Way Wanaghi Tachanku or "trail of the spirits." It was "the trail all Lakota people must take when fate overtakes them." (This is another interesting cross-cultural 'coincidence,' because among the Indians of South America, the Milky Way was also thought to be a "road of the dead" or "way of souls.") They claimed that at the point where the Milky Way splits, a divine Arbiter stood ... people who lived an immoral life were forced to head down the part of the Milky Way that ends in a nebula, tumbling through space forever. Those who lived a proper life took the other road to Wanaghiyata, the promised home of departed souls.

What is fascinating about this myth is that it ends this way, at least according to the translator: "Today, somewhere near the Trail of Spirits, known to others as the Milky Way, Fallen Star sends rays of hope for his earth people." (LaPointe, 1976.) This suggests Fallen Star might be one of the stars found near the Milky Way. Which one can't be determined from the story, but it could be the one of the ones in the Big Dipper. Based on the legend, it would have some special relationship to the Pole Star. This would be an interesting topic for further investigations.>>
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http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=38904 wrote:
<<Although Mars is quite different from Earth in many ways—smaller, colder, drier, and hostile to life—in some respects the two worlds are quite similar. Volcanoes shaped the surface of both planets, and a distinctive feature of volcanism was recently found on the surface of Mars. Columnar jointing is a pattern of cracking in rocks that forms slender columns, typically six-sided. Jointing occurs when lava or magma comes into contact with a cool, flat surface. After the lava solidifies, it cools and shrinks, causing cracks to form perpendicular to the cool surface. In lava flows, cooling progresses from the top down (where the flow is in contact with air or water), forming regular columns.

These images show examples of columnar jointing on Mars (top) and Earth (below) at the exact same scale. The top image shows layers of solidified lava flows exposed on the rim of a 16-kilometer-diamter crater in the Marte Vallis region on Mars. This image from the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment HiRISE instrument aboard NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter shows the first columnar joints positively identified on a planet other than Earth.

Columns between 30–40 meters (100–130 feet) tall and about 2 meters (6.6 feet) wide comprise the lowest of the visible layers in the Mars image. (The exposed columns run from lower left to upper right in this image.) Beneath the columns, talus (eroded debris) slopes towards the crater floor. The crater rim is visible in the lower right corner. The Sun is lighting the scene from the lower left.

Jointed columns occur around the entire circumference of the crater, indicating that the lava flows cover a huge area: at least 200 square kilometers (77 square miles). The widespread lava flows stacked on top of one another appear similar to the terrestrial flood basalts of the Columbia River Basin in Idaho, Oregon, and Washington, where instances of columnar jointing are common. It is likely that runny lava from a distant source formed layers of basalt in Marte Vallis, and they were uncovered when an asteroid punched through the Martian surface.

Devil’s Tower (lower image) is one of the most famous examples of columnar jointing on Earth. Although the process—directional cooling and cracking—that formed the columns in Marte Vallis is similar at Devil’s Tower, the setting and source of molten rock are quite different. Devil’s Tower formed from a bubble of molten rock that rose up into layers of sedimentary rock in eastern Wyoming, but never broke through to the surface. Over millions of years, the surrounding and overlying rock eroded away, leaving the hard columns standing 386 meters (1,267 feet) above the Belle Fourche River. The summit of Devil’s Tower is flat and almost featureless. Large blocks of rock from collapsed columns bury the base of the tower in steep talus slopes. Trees cover the debris farther from the tower’s base. In this aerial photograph, sunlight comes from the lower right, which creates a long shadow pointing towards the upper left.>>
-----------------------------------------------------
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Re: "Devil's Tower"

Post by neufer » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:18 pm

apodman wrote:There's that teapot again.

Image
  • TEE-Apot :!:
Image
You may drink TEE back thar in Washinngtun DEE.CEE.
but out here in BIG SKY countree we drink from a COFFEE pot!

ImageImage
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Re: "Devil's Tower"

Post by apodman » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:23 pm

neufer wrote:Image
Your tribute to the constellation Lepus the Hare no doubt.

Image

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Devils Tower (2009 July 29)

Post by neufer » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:33 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devils_Postpile_National_Monument wrote:
<<Devils Postpile is a dark cliff of columnar basalt near Mammoth Mountain in extreme northeastern Madera County in eastern California. The postpile was created by a lava flow sometime between less than 100,000 years ago (according to current potassium-argon dating) to 700,000 years ago (according to other dating methods). The source of the lava is thought to have been somewhere near Upper Soda Springs campground at the north end of Pumice Flat on the floor of the Middle Fork of the San Joaquin River, from where it flowed to the site of the Postpile, was impounded by a moraine, and reached a thickness of 400 feet (newer estimate) to 600 feet (older estimate). In any event, the lava that now makes up the Postpile was near the bottom of this mass.

Because of its great thickness, much of the mass of pooled lava cooled slowly and evenly, which is why the columns are so long and so symmetrical. Columnar jointing occurs when certain types of lava cool; the joints develop when the lava contracts during the cooling process. A glacier later removed much of this mass of rock and left a nicely polished surface on top of the Postpile with very noticeable glacial striations and glacial polish.

Devils Postpile was once part of Yosemite National Park, but discovery of gold near Mammoth Lakes prompted a boundary change that left the Postpile on adjacent public land. A proposal to build a hydroelectric dam later called for blasting the Postpile into the river. Influential Californians, including Walter L. Huber, persuaded the federal government to stop the demolition and in 1911, President Howard Taft made the area into a United States National Monument. The John Muir Trail and Pacific Crest Trail pass through the monument.

Image

The Postpile's columns average 2 feet (0.61 m) in diameter, the largest being 3.5 feet (1.1 m), and many are up to 60 feet (18 m) long. Together they look like tall posts stacked in a pile, hence the feature's name. If the lava had cooled perfectly evenly, all of the columns would be expected to be hexagonal, but some of the columns have different polygonal cross-sections on account of variations in cooling. A survey of 400 of the Postpile's columns found that 44.5% were 6-sided, 37.5% 5-sided, 9.5% 4-sided, 8.0% 7-sided, and 0.5% 3-sided. Compared with other examples of columnar jointing, the Postpile has more hexagonal columns. Another thing that places the Postpile in a special category is the lack of horizontal jointing.

Several stones from the Devil's Postpile can be seen at the entrance to the United States Geological Survey headquarters lot in Reston, Virginia.

Although the basaltic columns are impressive, they are not unique. Basalt columns are a common volcanic feature, and they occur on many scales (faster cooling produces smaller columns). Other notable sites include Giant's Causeway in Northern Ireland, Fingal's Cave in Scotland, the Garni gorge in Armenia, the Cyclopean Isles near Sicily, Devils Tower National Monument in Wyoming, Sheepeater Cliff at Yellowstone National Park in Wyoming, Basalt Prisms in Hidalgo, Mexico, the "Organ Pipes" formation on Mount Cargill in New Zealand, Gilbert Hill in Mumbai, Organ Pipes National Park in Australia and the "Columnar Cape" (Russian: Mis Stolbchaty) on Kunashir, the southernmost of the Kurile Islands in Russia.

Mars: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=38904 >>
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Re: Devil's Tower (2009 July 29)

Post by astrolabe » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:29 am

Hello All,

This is really how the formation got it's grooves, just in case you were wondering

http://travelphotobase.com/f/WYIX/WYND41.HTM
"Everything matters.....So may the facts be with you"-astrolabe

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Re: Devil's Tower (2009 July 29)

Post by neufer » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:53 am

astrolabe wrote:Hello All,

This is really how the formation got it's grooves, just in case you were wondering

http://travelphotobase.com/f/WYIX/WYND41.HTM
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm101.html wrote:
_Bearskin_ by Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm

"For the next seven years you are neither to wash yourself, nor comb your beard and hair, nor cut your nails, nor say the Lord's prayer."
Image
"I will give you a jacket and a cloak, which you must wear during this time. If you die during these seven years, you are mine. If you stay alive, you are free, and rich as well, for all the rest of your life."

The soldier thought about his desperate situation, and having faced death so often before, he decided to risk it now as well, and he entered into the agreement.

The devil took off his green jacket and gave it to the soldier, saying, "Whenever you wear this jacket and reach into its pocket, you will find a handful of money."

Then he pulled the skin off the bear and said, "This shall be your cloak, and your bed as well, for you are to sleep on it, and you are not allowed to lie in any other bed. Because of your clothing you shall you be called Bearskin." With that the devil disappeared.
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Re: Devil's Tower (2009 July 29)

Post by Arramon » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:32 pm

hehehe... this was just on the other night. =)
love that movie. and Wally has got to be one of my favorite photographers of ALL time.

Excellent shot....

-=A=-

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Re: Devil's Tower (2009 July 29)

Post by StACase » Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:29 pm

I just got back from a week of canoe paddling and no internet, and of all the APODs to go through, this was the one that made me say, "WOW!"
If you can't hit the broad side of a barn at 25 feet, you aren't going to hit the target at 100 meters.

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