Betelgeuse shrinking!

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harry
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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by harry » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:03 am

G'day from the land of ozzzzzz

Chris said
They don't form from nothing- they are already part of the stellar material. When a neutron star forms, there is a complex process of separation, transformation, and stratification of particles. AFAIK there is no observational evidence that is very useful for understanding the interior of neutron stars, only mathematical models. It's a complex issue (and one that you did not ask about in your original post).
I agree its a very complex issue. I also agree with complex process of separation, transformation, and stratification of particles.

May I suggest you look up the process in the formation of solar flares or jets. The process will give you some idea on the fast formation of Neutrons and their compaction.

Experiments on Earth using Z- pinch dynamics have been applied to astrophysics .

Also the search on arXiv Supernova 2009.

As for me giving a better explanation, I'm not that smart of a cookie, still learning.
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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:41 am

harry wrote:May I suggest you look up the process in the formation of solar flares or jets. The process will give you some idea on the fast formation of Neutrons and their compaction.
No, I don't think that would be useful at all. I don't share your obsession with jets, and I don't think they are useful for explaining neutron star formation. They are a consequence of rotating dense objects under certain conditions; they aren't the cause of them.
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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by orin stepanek » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:39 pm

mark swain wrote:Interesting info. This star really is huge. Betelgeuse ... Whats the difference in formation to our own? what aloud our sun to not get as big? I saw animated graphics of when our sun switched on ,, they depicted it NOT excepting anymore gas to get lager ,, So why was Betelgeuse aloud to get so big?

Mark
Hi! Some are even larger than Betelgeuse! Here's an interesting comparison movie.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1448213121

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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by The Code » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:16 pm

Thanks orin stepanek

That was awesome. I sat and watched that with my chin on the floor. 2.88 million times earth. Jaw dropping.

Thanks

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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by makc » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:56 pm

There was once a whole thread full of similar material. These things are getting increasingly hard to find, thanks harry :)

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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by harry » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:05 am

G'day from the land of ozzzzz

Thanks Orin from me and my Kids.

My kid loved it,

He said WOW!!!!!!!!!!! and than Wow!!!!!!!! and than wowow!!!!!!!!!!! and kept going wow!!


It reminds us how small we are and not the centre of the Universe.

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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by aristarchusinexile » Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:52 pm

bystander wrote:Popular Giant Star Shrinks Mysteriously
Space.com - 2009 June 09

Betelguese has shrunk 15% since 1993, but has not visibly dimmed.
Has it brightened?
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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by The Code » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:38 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:Has it brightened?
I don't think that matters. ari... Type 2 super nova break all the rules in less than 1 second.

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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by bystander » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:14 am

aristarchusinexile wrote:Has it brightened?
If so, it wasn't mentioned. I would think they would mention that.
mark swain wrote:I don't think that matters. ari... Type 2 super nova break all the rules in less than 1 second.
What does Type 2 super nova have to do with Betelgeuse?

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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by The Code » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:20 am

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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by bystander » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:29 pm

Even though Betelgeuse is a Red Supergiant, most of which end as Type II Supernovae, the article provides no evidence that Betelgeuse is about to go supernova. It could become a neutron star or possibly a black hole or even a Wolf-Rayet star.

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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by The Code » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:10 pm

There was a program on tv I saw.. They said. It could go any time Now. And a 15% reduction in size ,, Might be the start. What are the other reasons for a reduction in size?

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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by bystander » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:25 pm

I would expect Eta Carinae to go hypernova before Betelgeuse goes. I don't expect to live to see either event, although anything is possible.

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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by The Code » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:29 pm

bystander wrote:although anything is possible.
You said that bud,,, Not me... BTW Great new post..

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BA: Is Betelgeuse about to blow?

Post by bystander » Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:31 am

Is Betelgeuse about to blow?
Bad Astronomy - 01 June 2010
Phil Plait wrote:I was going to wait to write about this, but I’m getting a lot of emails about it, so I’ll say something now, and followup when I get more information.
Image
The story:

BABloggee Alereon (and many others) sent me to an interesting site: Life After the Oil Crash Forum — a forum that apparently has a lot of doomsday-type scuttlebutt posted to it.

An anonymous poster there says he has heard that the star Betelgeuse is about to go supernova, maybe as soon as a few weeks:
...
The basic takeaway:

OK, folks, first: when news like this comes from an unnamed source on some random forum, and that source is not even a primary one, and that secondary source quoted is also unnamed, and that person heard it from a third party that is also unnamed… well, oddly enough my skeptic alarm bell in my head rings loudly enough that my eardrums explode outward in every direction at the speed of light.

I hope I’m being clear here.

The first important thing to note here is that if Betelgeuse explodes, we’re in no danger at all. It’s too far away to hurt us. Got that? It’s the most important thing to remember here, because I’m quite sure this story will get wildly exaggerated as it gets repeated.

So, what’s the deal with Betelgeuse? What is it, will it explode, and if so, when?

The details:

Betelgeuse is one of the brightest stars in the sky. That’s because it’s an intrinsically luminous star, and one that’s relatively close by. By luminous, I mean something like 100,000 times that of the Sun, and by close I mean roughly 600 light years away if not more. That’s 6 quadrillion kilometers, or almost 4 quadrillion miles. In other words, quite a hike.

Betelgeuse is a red supergiant. It has a mass of something like 20 times the Sun’s, and is near the end of its life. When it dies, it will explode as a supernova, a titanic event that is among the most violent in the Universe. For details on how this happens, read this essay I wrote about it.

It’s hard to know just when a star will explode when you’re on the outside. Betelgeuse might go up tonight, or it might not be for 100,000 years. We’re just not sure.

Betelgeuse isn’t round, and it’s shrinking!

In the bulletin board post, he talks about the star not being round. It’s unclear, but it sounds like he’s referring to observations which show that there is a big plume coming from the surface of Betelgeuse. That was exciting news when it was released, but not hugely surprising; stars are active, and massive stars even more so. Also, note that those "new" observations are a year old!
Image
That image above is from even earlier, and shows a Hubble observation of Betelgeuse taken in 2005. Note here that the star doesn’t look round, but that’s an illusion. The image shows a hot spot in Betelgeuse’s swollen atmosphere, and that makes it look like a bump is hanging of the side. In reality, that’s just because of the way the image is printed, and isn’t an actual physical bump. But the hot spot (probably due to a big ol’ bubble of hot gas rising near the surface) in itself shows that things on the star change all the time; just recently two such spots were found.

The post also talks about Betelgeuse shrinking. That claim is from observations made over the course of many years. Those data indicate the star is shrinking, but it’s unclear what they mean. While it may mean the star is in fact shrinking, starspots (sunspots on another star) may be fooling us, for example. Also, red supergiants aren’t like marbles, with a clean, sharp surface. They are balls of gas, extended and bloated, so there is no real surface. It’s therefore entirely possible the astronomers aren’t even really measuring the surface of the star at all, and it’s just the highly extended atmosphere that’s changing.

Surface tension, rotten to the core

The point I’m making is that a lot of stuff can happen on the surface of the star that has nothing to do with the core. Since it’s the core that generates the star’s energy and eventually causes it to explode, what’s happening on the surface is not an indication of any impending explosion.

Mind you, the surface and the core do "talk" to each other, though slowly. As the core changes, that information does leak to the surface, but it takes centuries. Until, that is, the core collapses. When that happens, the shock wave takes hours or days to get to the surface, and the star explodes. But that’s hardly a slow event taking decades! So any changes we see happening now probably have little to do with what’s happening hundreds of millions of kilometers deep in the star.

Also, it’s been known for a long time that Betelgeuse is a variable star; its light output changes. This shrinking may just be a part of that natural cycle, and again no indication of an explosion.

Having said all that, I’ll note that someday, Betelgeuse will explode. That’s for certain! But it’s also way too far away to hurt us. A supernova has to be no farther than about 25 light years away to be able to fry us with light or anything else, and Betelgeuse is 25 times that distance (which means its power to hurt us is weakened by over 600x). It’s the wrong kind of star to explode as a gamma-ray burst, so I’m not worried about that either.

At that distance, it’ll get bright, about as bright as the full Moon. That’s pretty bright! It’ll hurt your eyes to look at it, but that’s about it. The original post says it may get as bright as the Sun, but that’s totally wrong. It won’t even get 1/100,000th that bright. Still bright, but it’s not going to cook us. Even if it were going to explode soon. Which it almost certainly isn’t.

Conclusion:

So my personal opinion is that this is just another breathless rumor of astronomical doomsday that we get every couple of years. Even if any of the science of it is right, it doesn’t mean Betelgeuse is about to explode any day now. And since this is a rumor three times removed, I don’t put any stock in it. I’ll wait until I hear from named scientists with published or publishable data before I start to wonder if the star is about to blow.

And if and when it does explode, it can’t hurt us. Someday it will — maybe not for a hundred thousand years, but someday — and every astronomer on the planet hopes it happens in their lifetime! It will be a scientific bonanza unlike any ever seen.

Image credits: NASA, ESA, ESO

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Re: Betelgeuse shrinking!

Post by bystander » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:04 pm

DON'T PANIC! Betelgeuse Won't Explode in 2012
Discovery News | Ian O'Neill | 2011 Jan 20
Betelgeuse is a dying star. It's reached the end of the line and currently in the terminal throes of shedding vast bubbles of gas into space. Betelgeuse is a red supergiant star and it's so massive that it will detonate as a supernova.

With all this drama happening 640 light-years away in the constellation of Orion, there's little wonder that this tumultuous star is easy headline bait.

Betelgeuse is a celebrity amongst stars and no stranger to astronomers' zoom lenses. And like any celebrity, news can break at any time, for any reason, and today I received a surge of messages via Twitter and email pointing me to a big Betelgeuse scoop that can be summarized as: The star is gonna blow! Soon! Possibly around 2012!

Naturally, I checked out the source of this breaking story to find... well, not much.

On reading a few sentences from the Australian News.com.au article, one would think the journalist had found the story of the decade. NEWS FLASH: An exploding Betelgeuse is one of the most over-used sensationalist stellar events to appear in the tabloid press in recent years. There's no scoop here, move along.
Betelgeuse and 2012
Bad Astronomy | 2011 Jan 21
I swear, I need to trust my instincts. As soon as I saw the article on the news.com.au site desperately trying to link Betelgeuse going supernova with the nonsense about the Mayans and 2012, my gut reaction was to write about it.

But no, I figured a minute later, this story would blow over. So to speak.

I should’ve known: instead of going away, it gets picked up by that bastion of antiscience, The Huffington Post.

Grrrr.

... the best thing of all in having Betelgeuse explode is that it would bring billions of people outside and looking up. Betelgeuse is in a part of the sky that makes it visible everywhere on Earth but pretty much the south pole. Far from being a harbinger of doomsday, it might actually be the single greatest benefit to astronomy that’s happened in hundreds of years.

Take that, Mayan apocalypse fearmongers!
Will Betelgeuse Really Become a Second Sun in 2012?
Space.com | Science & Astronomy | 2011 Jan 21
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Fair & balanced

Post by neufer » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:48 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/01/21/betelgeuse-explode-scientists-say/ wrote:
Dying Star Betelgeuse Won't Explode in 2012, Experts Say
Published January 21, 2011 | FoxNews.com

<<The supergiant star Betelgeuse has a vast plume of gas almost as large as our Solar System and a gigantic bubble boiling on its surface, shown in this artist's impression.

The super-giant red star Betelgeuse in Orion’s nebula is predicted to cataclysmically explode, and the impending supernova may even reach Earth -- someday.

But will it happen by 2012, as recent news reports suggest? Probably not, experts told FoxNews.com. While the second biggest star in the universe is strangely losing mass -- and has already become a red giant, meaning it is destined to explode and become a supernova -- there's no reason to believe that it will happen anytime soon.

"The story is pretty 'Hollywoody,'" said New Jersey Institute of Technology professor Philip R. Goode. In reality, the stars eventual explosion is inevitable, but no one knows when it will happen, he explained -- 2012 is pure conjecture.

"Betelgeuse is a red supergiant and should supernova at some time. When? Who knows?" he told FoxNews.com.

Phil Plait, an astronomer who writes for Discovery News, agrees that someday, Betelgeuse will go gangbusters. But it’s way too far away to hurt us, he explained.

"A supernova has to be no farther than about 25 light years away to be able to fry us with light or anything else, and Betelgeuse is 25 times that distance," Plait wrote on his blog The Bad Astronomer.

The story was fueled by Australian news site News.com.au -- also owned by FoxNews.com parent company News Corp. -- which predicted that a giant explosion will occur, tens of millions of times brighter than the sun, and suggested the event was imminent. And the gist of the story is accurate: Betelgeuse will blow, in an explosion that will be visible from Earth, though it won't be so bright as to appear like a "second sun."

“This old star is running out of fuel in its center,” Carter told News.com.au. “This fuel keeps Betelgeuse shining and supported. When this fuel runs out the star will literally collapse in upon itself and it will do so very quickly.”

“It goes bang, it explodes, it lights up -- we’ll have incredible brightness for a brief period of time for a couple of weeks and then over the coming months it begins to fade and then eventually it will be very hard to see at all.”

When Betelgeuse does blow, it will definitely be visible, Goode confirmed.

"One could roughly expect it to be as bright as a full moon and gradually fade away over a few months. Everyone on Earth would notice and be talking about it," he told FoxNews.com. Goode also noted that, due to the time required for light from the star to reach Earth, the event would be old history by the time we could see it.

"Betelgeuse is several hundred light years away, so if it were to light up the sky in 2012 it would have exploded in the Middle Ages," he said.

The news reports of Betelgeuse's imminent demise are nevertheless fueling Internet rumors and doomsday theories by confounding the impending supernova with the Mayan calendar’s end in 2012 -- which some believe is a prediction of the end of the world.

But again, there's no reason to think Betelgeuse will blow in 2012, Plait explains -- or even this millennium.

"It’s hard to know just when a star will explode when you’re on the outside. Betelgeuse might go up tonight, or it might not be for 100,000 years. We’re just not sure," Plait explained.

Goode agreed. "If you want to bet on it, it's better to try the lottery," he said.>>
Art Neuendorffer

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