Smoke from the Cigar Galaxy APOD 14/4/2006

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:10 am

Quote:"Polycylic Aromatic Hydrocarbons are also seen in star forming regions throughout our own, much calmer, Milky Way Galaxy and are products of combustion on planet Earth. "

I didn't realise that the pollution problem had got that bad.
Shurely shome mishtake?

John

orin stepanek · Post by **orin stepanek** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:09 pm

It does make an awesome photo using the infrared.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060414.html
I wonder if this galaxy lacks a large black hole being that the stellar winds can blow the dust out so far. Or maybe this may be a very young galaxy. I see where it recently interacted with M81 so this may be the cause of all the 'smoke'
Orin

harry · Post by **harry** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:03 am

Hello All

Giving that such activity is taking place. I think that a Black Hole is creating what we see.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060414.html

Likely triggered by interactions with nearby galaxy M81, M82's intense star formation activity appears to be blowing out immense clouds of dust and PAHs extending nearly 20,000 light-years both above and below the galactic plane

20 light years is quite a distance. A black hole could make this happen to such an extent.

starnut · Post by **starnut** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:01 am

No, it isn't a black hole creating this "pollution".

Not even the supermassive black hole that may lurk in the center of the galaxy. It was the interaction or a series of close encounters with the nearby galaxy M81 at least 100 million years ago that triggered a very intense star formation in both M81 and M82. The gravititional interaction caused gas and dust clouds in both galaxies to compress all over the place, creating new stars at a furious rate. Many of those new stars would be hot, massive stars that ended their short lives with a bang - as supernovae. The supernovae spewed out vast quantities of hydrogen and other materials at a very high speed. That, combined with strong stellar wind from the young, massive and hot stars, blew the ejected materials clear out of M82. I am not sure though why M81 doesn't have similar clouds, but it does show a lot of hot, blue stars in its spiral arms.
See

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040601.html

gary

harry · Post by **harry** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:45 am

hello Starnut

I agree there has been alot of star formation,,,,,,,,,,,,,but all this great activity is driven by a black hole,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,an ultra dense matter with jets pumbing both sides.

The actual shade dictates that a black hole is present.

starnut · Post by **starnut** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:17 pm

Harry,

A single blackhole, even of the supermassive variety, cannot produce all the expelled clouds! Only supernovae, with help of strong wind from young, hot, massive stars, can do it. Any jets emanating from a blackhole would be very narrow rather than spreaded out. Please read the explanations that come with the APOD pictures.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/apo ... search?m82

gary

harry · Post by **harry** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:56 am

Hello Starnut

I have read all the links.

An active black hole is like a spinning top, it is able to create such an ejection and activate starformation which will add to the ejection. It is the actual direction and power that extends 25000 light years which can only be created by a powerful jet stream from a black hoel.

This jet stream is also responsible for the starburts.

I could be wrong.

Very interesting. Have to put on more spark plugs,,,,,,,,,alpha zone work

Qev · Post by **Qev** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:32 am

The supermassive black holes in most galaxies have very little to do with the star formation rates within their host galaxies. Star formation is usually triggered by compression waves travelling through clouds of gas and dust, causing the density in areas to increase to the point where gravitational collapse occurs. Gravitational interaction between galaxies is one way a great deal of such star-forming activity occurs.

Supernovae and hot, high-mass stars with their strong stellar winds can toss material very high up out of the galactic plane; we see this even in our own galaxy, which has a very quiescent black hole lurking at its center. Black hole jets tend to be very narrow, confined beams of matter, and can travel much further than 25000 light years indeed, depending on the engine that's generating them. In the case of M82, it looks more like a boiling pot than the jet of a black hole.

The colouration of astronomical images is very often quite arbitrary. Astronomers use various colour schemes depending on what particular aspect of the image they're trying to study. For example, the previous APOD image (the 'close-up' of M82) is a combination of a visible light image and a false-colour infrared image (the large, red clouds). The red colour is completely arbitrary, and doesn't indicate anything particular about the data, it's simply there for contrast.

harry · Post by **harry** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:01 pm

Hello qev and all

Jet streams from active black holes are different from jet streams from stars.

M87 has a jet stream light years across and thousands of lignt years in length.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990216.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960305.html
quote"The picture also shows a highly energetic jet emanating from the central object. The jet is composed of fast moving charged particles and has broken into knots as small as 10 light years across."

In the case of M87 the Black hole spins at such a fast rate that it literally shapes the galaxy with not only isolated stars but cluster of stars in millions to each cluster.

Starburst galaxies are associated with many black holes, meaning an ultra dense plasma matter that does not allow light to escape.

Qev · Post by **Qev** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:59 am

harry wrote:Jet streams from active black holes are different from jet streams from stars.

M87 has a jet stream light years across and thousands of lignt years in length.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990216.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960305.html
quote"The picture also shows a highly energetic jet emanating from the central object. The jet is composed of fast moving charged particles and has broken into knots as small as 10 light years across."

Actually, the jet from M87 is quite small in diameter at its source, much less than a tenth of a light year (see your first link). The jet is a beam of very energetic electron, primarily. This beam heats up surrounding gases, creating the glow we see. It diffuses quite widely over time and distance, creating the larger 'blobs' one sees further out.

In the case of M87 the Black hole spins at such a fast rate that it literally shapes the galaxy with not only isolated stars but cluster of stars in millions to each cluster.

M87's black hole's rotation doesn't seem to be affecting the shape of the galaxy as a whole. The only way its rotation could affect the shape of the galaxy directly, that I can think of, is through frame-dragging, and this is a relatively short-range gravitational effect. Also, M87 is an elliptical galaxy, with no really well-defined axis of rotation; the stars or clusters of stars tend to follow relatively random orbits around the common center of gravity.

Starburst galaxies are associated with many black holes, meaning an ultra dense plasma matter that does not allow light to escape.

Starburst galaxies are generally thought to be produced by gravitational interactions between gas-rich galaxies. Tidal forces 'stir up' the gas and dust of said galaxies, causing massive waves of star formation. This stirring up also tends to provide more gas and dust as fuel for the central black hole, which leads to greater black hole activity.

harry · Post by **harry** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:31 am

Hello Qev

M87 jet is not so small 0.1 to 0.2 light years at the base of the jet is over one month light travel. This is 30 times or so the distance across our solar system. This not a small jet.

The jet stream is responsible for the random cluster of stars that circle m87. The amount of matter that is coming out of that jet can make clusters of stars.

and you said
"Starburst galaxies are generally thought to be produced by gravitational interactions between gas-rich galaxies. Tidal forces 'stir up' the gas and dust of said galaxies, causing massive waves of star formation. This stirring up also tends to provide more gas and dust as fuel for the central black hole, which leads to greater black hole activity"

I agree

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:43 pm

Hi harry,

the highest resolution inset in the link you provided above (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990216.html) is 0.2 light-years, and the jet's thickness appears to be a small fraction of the inset's dimensions, so the jet is quite a bit less than 0.2 light-years in width.

harry wrote: The jet stream is responsible for the random cluster of stars that circle m87. The amount of matter that is coming out of that jet can make clusters of stars.

M87 is orbited by numerous globular clusters (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap950913.html), but I haven't read anything about M87's central jets actually creating such stars. (Please correct me with links if I'm wrong) Also, M87's globular clusters are 'red' and are thus composed of very old stars, analogous to the Milky Way's globular clusters.

I'm inclined to agree with Qev about black hole rotation having an insignificant impact on galaxy shape.

Qev · Post by **Qev** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:25 pm

harry wrote:The jet stream is responsible for the random cluster of stars that circle m87. The amount of matter that is coming out of that jet can make clusters of stars.

That's not actually possible. The material making up the typical black-hole jet is magnetically-confined, high energy electrons. It's like a giant CRT beam like the one running a television. Of course, the mechanism producing it is somewhat different.

There isn't nearly enough matter being beamed out from this black hole, and it isn't even the right kind of matter, to be able to form stars. Also, the material is far too energetic; even if it were pure hydrogen, it's too hot and moving too fast to ever coalesce into stars.

The passage of the beam through gas clouds may trigger star formation, by causing shockwaves to propagate through said clouds, but the material of the beam isn't what's forming the stars, it's just nudging things along somewhat. Of course, being an elliptical galaxy, there's very little star-forming material left in M87, so even this is pretty unlikely at this point in the galaxy's evolution.

harry · Post by **harry** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:48 pm

Hello qev

Smile,,,,,,,I think we have to go to cowboy city and have a shoot out.

The jets from Black Holes give out matter that is part of the recycling process. The Black hole taketh and the black hole giveth. Its part of the never ending story.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970413.html
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/merlin/about/layman/jet.html

I need more info on these jets. I need hard evidence to move qev.

I'll be back

starnut · Post by **starnut** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:36 am

Harry,

It sounds like black holes are your favorite things!

From your posts in several threads, you seem to think that black holes and their jets if they have any are the answer to almost everything! As Qev and others stated, the jets don't have enough matter and spread to trigger new star formations or to propel gas and dust clouds out of the galactic plane. There is nothing in those two links you provided that confirms your assertion.

Of course, you are free to come up with your own hypotheses and theories, no matter how nutty (who is nutty now?

), on what you see in the APOD pictures, even though they contradict the "offical" explanations.

gary

harry · Post by **harry** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:48 am

Hello Starnut

What do you know about the jets to even conclude that my ideas are wrong.

I will in time prove and support the ideas that I put down. There is more facts that need to be lloked at.

Through the last few decades i have put several ideas on the table,,,,,,,,smile,,,,,,,,, most of them at the time were laughed at,,,,,,,,,,,that ok,,,,,,,,,,,,now they are main stream thoughts.

I could be wrong with the jets but my gut feeling is,,,,,,,,,,,,,I'm on track

harry · Post by **harry** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:49 am

Hello Starnut

What do you know about the jets to even conclude that my ideas are wrong.

I will in time prove and support the ideas that I put down. There is more facts that need to be lloked at.

Through the last few decades i have put several ideas on the table,,,,,,,,smile,,,,,,,,, most of them at the time were laughed at,,,,,,,,,,,that ok,,,,,,,,,,,,now they are main stream thoughts.

I could be wrong with the jets but my gut feeling is,,,,,,,,,,,,,I'm on track

Qev · Post by **Qev** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:57 pm

Actually, according to this article, it appears that active black holes in galaxies prevent stars from forming, by heating the surrounding gases too hot to collaspe into new stars. Makes sense when I think about it, since stars form from cold interstellar gas clouds, but this particular result never occurred to me.

harry · Post by **harry** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:08 am

Hello Qev

re link

Quote:
"As the gas falls towards the event horizon, it releases energy in the form of high-energy particles which stream away in jets from a "magnetised gaseous disk" encompassing the black hole's core (see pic). These jets then form enormous "bubbles" far out into space.

The question for the Chandra team was how much energy would be required for the jets to produce these bubbles, in some cases thousands of light years across? The answer, according to Steve Allen of Stanford University, is a trillion trillion trillion watts.

The upshot of this fuel-efficient conversion rate, Reuters notes, is that big black holes theoretically have enough gas to keep firing for hundreds of billions of years, way beyond the current estimated age of the universe - a modest 13.7bn years.

A knock-on effect of the black holes' emissions, says Kim Weaver of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Centre, is that the outpouring of energy heats up the gas surrounding the galactic centre, thereby preventing stars from forming from cooling gaseous matter.

Weaver said: "This is one way to keep the stars from forming and letting the galaxies grow bigger." "

The above quote is not right in my opinion.

The amount of plasma matter coming out is huge and I think is responsible for the star cluster formations randomly found around the elliptical galaxy and this makes the galaxy grow bigger.

this is an interesting jet cannon.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap010905.html

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What drives these jets maybe found in the logic of the folowing link, I'm still reading them.

Hannes Alfvén, 1908–1995. A. L. Peratt

Birkeland and the Electromagnetic Cosmology, A. L. Peratt, Sky & Tel.May 1985 (696KB)

Model of the Plasma Universe, H. Alfvén, IEEE Trans. Plasma Sci. Vol PS-14, 1986 (1.1MB)

Cosmology in the Plasma Universe: An Introductory Exposition, H. Alfvén, IEEE Trans. Plasma Sci. 18, 1990 (740KB)

Plasma Cosmology, A.L. Peratt, Sky & Tel. Feb. 1992 (552KB)

oooops I have to go.