Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by BMAONE23 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:16 pm

StACase wrote:
BMAONE23 wrote:... With the exception of massive volcanic activity, the Earth is well equipped to balance a normal load of Natural Carbon Dioxide ...
As near as I can tell from various internet searches, volcanoes do not add a great deal of CO2 to the atmosphere. Folks on my side of the argument sometimes like to claim they add more than fossil fuels do, but they don't.
You are right in that Current Volcanic Activity levels aren't adding large ammounts of CO2 to the atmosphere. The major Volcanic CO2 contribution is currently at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean. The Mid Atlantic Ridge is currently a volcanic hot bed but the CO2 being deposited there is being introduced at the midpoint of the Thermohaline Circulation. It stands a good chance of becoming Calcium Carbonate through biologic interactions before it has the opportunity to rise to the surface. The Deep Cold ocean water along the Mid Atlantic Ridge area is the perfect environment for CO2 absorbtion by water.

The Volcanic activity needed to throw off the balance would be along the magnitude of several more, than currently active, volcanos spewing into the atmosphere, or 1 supervolcano eruption.

But Man has no control over any of these sources. We can't shut off a olcano, or close up the Mid Atlantic Rdige, or stop the Thermohaline Circulation from raising CO2 to the upper ocean levels. We can, however; reduce our input to the Carbon Cycle and reduce our negative impact on the Natural Sink process which forest plant life is responsible for.

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by StACase » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:47 am

BMAONE23 wrote:But Man has no control over any of these sources ... We can, however; reduce our input to the Carbon Cycle and reduce our negative impact on the Natural Sink process which forest plant life is responsible for.
Really? What makes you think so? Before you answer take a look at this:
If you can't hit the broad side of a barn at 25 feet, you aren't going to hit the target at 100 meters.

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by Redbone » Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:29 pm

If the moderating trend in the global warming cycles persists, then we will get less than 0.5 degree C more warming over the next two centuries. If the Greenhouse Theory has any validity, we might get a bit more than 0.5 degree more warming—but not much. We tend to forget that the climate forcing power of CO2 unquestionably declines logarithmically, so the earth has probably already gotten three-fourths of the total.

As the earth cools, the U.S. will use our new natural gas surplus instead of biofuels, carbon taxes will die and the deliberate disruption of the economy will be stifled. Further warming 40 years from now will be too mild and erratic to renew public panic. Environmental assessments will become more realistic—and useful.


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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by Qev » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:36 pm

Dennis Avery is about the last person I'd give any credibility to on AGW issues. :lol:
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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by BMAONE23 » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:57 pm

StACase wrote:
BMAONE23 wrote:But Man has no control over any of these sources ... We can, however; reduce our input to the Carbon Cycle and reduce our negative impact on the Natural Sink process which forest plant life is responsible for.
Really? What makes you think so? Before you answer take a look at this:
I'm not sure I understand your point or is it a question???
Are you making the statement that I am incorrect about Man having no control over naural CO2 sources?
Or are you asking the Question...What makes me think (so) man has any control over the ammount of CO2 he introduces into the Carbon Cycle or could possibly reduce his negative impact on the Natural Carbon Sink process?

Which Question/Statement are you alluding to?

Or did you simply not understand my point that there are two sources at play for CO2
1) Natural sources such as animal/microbial respiration and volcanic activity which man can not control
2) Human activity such as burning fossil fuels and reduction of the natural Carbon Sink process through deforrestation which man CAN control and minimize.

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by StACase » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:31 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:I'm not sure I understand your point or is it a question???
Oh I'm sure you do, but just incase you really don't, my point is that no matter what the rest of the world does, it isn't going to matter much if China continues on their current path. They are, afterall, the world's largest emitter of CO2. India has already told the rest of the world to take a hike regarding CO2 emission controls. China and India and perhaps a few others are living room elephants that don't get discussed much.

So, considering China and India do you think, we can significantly reduce human CO2 emissions?
If you can't hit the broad side of a barn at 25 feet, you aren't going to hit the target at 100 meters.

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by Chris Peterson » Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:24 pm

StACase wrote:So, considering China and India do you think, we can significantly reduce human CO2 emissions?
Non-fossil fuel research programs are very active in both India and China. Both countries realize that they are incurring very high economic costs from pollution and the effects of global warming. Just because those countries don't show much political commitment to approaches involving international agreements doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to continue adding to the CO2 problem forever.

In any case, both India and China's per capita CO2 production are a fraction of that of the U.S. So action by America to reduce it's absurd output is a very good political step in influencing the rest of the world to follow suit.

My view is that using coal and oil for energy production is an economic dead end. If we put the pressure on ourselves to stop, we will develop greatly superior alternatives, and once we've done that the same technology will be adopted elsewhere. The first country (or countries) to effectively commercialize non-fossil energy sources are going to reap vast economic rewards. After all, energy is the true basis of the world economy.
Chris

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista

Post by bhrobards » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:15 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
aristarchusinexile wrote:My curiousity has been stimulated though .. are there any scientific measurements of the sun increasing its heat ouput in the past decade or two?
There is no such evidence. Measuring solar irradiance is difficult, and can only be done accurately from space. There have been a half dozen satellites capable of such measurements launched since the late 1970s. All show the expected variation in output with sunspot cycle (about 0.1%), but any other trend is statistically indiscernible. That's not to say some trend isn't there, just that there's no data of high enough quality to detect one.

Over longer periods it is even more difficult to say, because there are no direct measurements at all, and all the indirect (proxy) methods have very large uncertainties- indeed, they have uncertain uncertainties. I think the broader thinking is that there is little evidence of a long term change in solar output over the last centuries or longer, but nobody thinks the evidence as such is good enough to make that assertion with any certainty at all. This consensus is probably related more to natural scientific conservatism than anything else (that is, most scientists will take the simplest position in the absence of any evidence one way or the other).
I find this analysis to be far off the mark. By your own statement the only accurate measurements are those from satellites, approximately 40 years of data. The sun is a variable star with multiple cycles that go in and out of phase with at least one over 100,000 years long. That we know of. It is estimated irradience has increased .2% since the 17th century, some pace it as high as .6%. Temperature and oceans on the earth have been rising since the end of the last ice age. Further, we all should know that satellites are limited by their instrumentation, if the sensor is looking at electromagnetic spectra it doesn't see protons. NASA has recently detected a magnetic structure that act as a conduit from the sun to the earth for the solar wind, this from a satellite that studies the aurora. From my point of view, since magnetic field and moving charges cannot be separated, physics 101, the right hand rule, ect., what this amounts to is a power transmission line from the sun to the earth. Think plasma globe with the earth as your finger on the globe. The magnetic conduit is created by the flow of solar protons. This is a power source that was unknown. No estimate of how much power yet. But at sunspot maxima it is probably at its maximum and now with the solar wind dying down and sunspot activity at significant lows it is probably low. Kristian Birkland measured the e field in the arctic (1889-90), as I recall, it was significant something like 1.3 v/m. As far as there being no evidence, there are oceans of evidence including new discoveries that show we aren't even close to having the science nailed down.

It is interesting that BMAONE23 mentioned mid-Atlantic ridge volcanism recently. There are quite a few erupting volcanos on the ridge in the arctic, some quite large. NASA scientists have said they don't contribute to arctic melting, to which I say bosh. I want a non-heat emitting volcano in my yard, it would be entertaining. My point is that this may help explain melting in the arctic and ice addition in the antarctic, and planetary cooling except in the arctic.

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:34 am

bhrobards wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:I find this analysis to be far off the mark. By your own statement the only accurate measurements are those from satellites, approximately 40 years of data. The sun is a variable star with multiple cycles that go in and out of phase with at least one over 100,000 years long. That we know of. It is estimated irradience has increased .2% since the 17th century, some pace it as high as .6%.
The highest serious estimate I've seen published is 0.2% since the 17th century, and that's far from accepted by most researchers. 0-0.1% is more likely.

The question was if there is any evidence that solar output has increased in recent decades, and the only reasonable answer is that there is no such evidence, because any measurable change is buried in the noise of the best data.

You may believe whatever you want about plasma effects on climate, but the bottom line is that there is no actual data supporting an increase in solar irradiance over recent decades, and darn little to support any steady change over any period, up to hundreds of millions of years. And the very small changes associated with periodic and aperiodic solar output (no more than a few tenths of a percent at most) are too small to account for significant climate effects by themselves, so need to be considered in relation to positive feedback effects that are still very poorly understood, but which represent hot research areas.
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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by StACase » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:42 am

Chris Peterson wrote: ...In any case, both India and China's per capita CO2 production are a fraction of that of the U.S. So action by America to reduce it's absurd output is a very good political step in influencing the rest of the world to follow suit ...
No mention of any other country, just the United States. That's what it's about isn't it. That's all "Global Warming" has ever been about. Scratch the average liberal and you will get a vitrolic anti-American screed. These people hate themselves, their country, their heritage. God only knows what makes them tick, I sure don't!
If you can't hit the broad side of a barn at 25 feet, you aren't going to hit the target at 100 meters.

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:04 am

StACase wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: ...In any case, both India and China's per capita CO2 production are a fraction of that of the U.S. So action by America to reduce it's absurd output is a very good political step in influencing the rest of the world to follow suit ...
No mention of any other country, just the United States. That's what it's about isn't it. That's all "Global Warming" has ever been about. Scratch the average liberal and you will get a vitrolic anti-American screed. These people hate themselves, their country, their heritage. God only knows what makes them tick, I sure don't!
Your view makes no sense to me. I'm American. I'm not particularly liberal, I don't hate myself or my country or my heritage. I do have great appreciation for the natural world, so I'd consider myself an environmentalist. It's a simple observation that Americans have a per capita carbon output many times higher than most other countries. My personal opinion is that this is not necessary to support our economic position (such as it is these days), and in fact is economically and politically harmful to us.

That last is not a scientific position, of course, but it is a policy position I have made based on my own understanding of science and economics. One of my biggest concerns is that such a large part of the public (especially the American public) has such a poor understanding of science and technology, and such poor critical thinking skills, that they are incapable of making good decisions based on scientific data.
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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by StACase » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:36 am

Chris Peterson wrote:One of my biggest concerns is that such a large part of the public (especially the American public) has such a poor understanding of science and technology, and such poor critical thinking skills, that they are incapable of making good decisions based on scientific data.
"(especially the American public) "

As I said.
If you can't hit the broad side of a barn at 25 feet, you aren't going to hit the target at 100 meters.

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:59 am

StACase wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:One of my biggest concerns is that such a large part of the public (especially the American public) has such a poor understanding of science and technology, and such poor critical thinking skills, that they are incapable of making good decisions based on scientific data.
"(especially the American public) "

As I said.
The common lack of scientific reasoning ability is not an opinion or value judgment, but a statement of fact based on numerous studies and test results. It is my opinion that this is a big problem- an opinion that is, I believe, shared by most other professional scientists as well. That opinion does not imply that I somehow hate America or Americans, however. Indeed, the reasoning behind such a conclusion just supports my own contention about the state of critical thinking these days.
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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by StACase » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:53 am

Chris Peterson wrote:(especially the American public) ... The common lack of scientific reasoning ability is not an opinion or value judgment, but a statement of fact based on numerous studies and test results.
I'd rate scientific reasoning ability among educational groups, not nationality. Your opinion based on nationality is very bigoted. Do you have opinions on gender and race as well?
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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by bhrobards » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:01 am

Chris- OK so you concede an increase twice what you stated there was no evidence for. You logic is still flawed, e.g. before satellite measurement, radience can only be estimated and is presumably unreliable. You still only have 40 years of data, insufficient I would think to exclude all other data. Although you used the term serious estimate. I'm am sure those who published estimates higher than point .2% were serious and they made it past the referees. There are many examples of even ancient data being correct. Consensus doen't make good science, being correct does. Now I do think that the discovery of Birkland currents between the earth and the sun is very significant in terms of what we don't know, I'll admit that I can't make any claim such as: it results in increased/decreased temperature or anything else. Your statement "you can believe anything you want" implies there is nothing to it. What I wrote was factual. The conduit exists. Current and mass flow through it to earth. It is the diameter of the earth. This is published information from NASA, quibble with them.
It seems to me you are really saying that solar irradience in the measured spectra have only varied by .1% during the 40 year period measured. Or am I wrong? Now, I hate the ascribing of motive to someone when it is not known, its a dirty rhetorical/political trick. So I will say there are flaws in the referee system. It tends to winnow out observations and opinions that don't match current theory, retarding advancement, stifling debate, etc., there are dozens of good examples. The politics of big science are a crying shame. I refer back to neufer's career comments. The sun is variable. Typically it is slow and steady but its luminance has been increasing for millions of years. That you think the range is and can only be based on a few minor cycles worth of evidence is very uniformitarian. There is a wide difference between "there is no evidence" and "according to standard model astrophysicists there is no acceptable evidence." In my view there has been a change in trend and it started with the waning of sunspot cycle 23. We can only wait and see what will happen. I did see a report today that the Great Lakes a frozen to a degree not seen in in many years. Revolutionary paradigm shifts don't come from the Academy, Academy scientists are good for refinement.

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by StACase » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:37 am

bhrobards wrote: I did see a report today that the Great Lakes a frozen to a degree not seen in in many years. Revolutionary paradigm shifts don't come from the Academy, Academy scientists are good for refinement.
I live in the Milwaukee area, and I took a special trip down to the Lake Michigan shore this past January to see for myself because of reports of the freeze.

It wasn't frozen.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/ ... rkView.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/ ... arkIce.jpg
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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:06 am

StACase wrote:I'd rate scientific reasoning ability among educational groups, not nationality. Your opinion based on nationality is very bigoted. Do you have opinions on gender and race as well?
If you think that all nationalities have educational systems of equal quality, you have what I'd consider a very strange view of things.
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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by StACase » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:14 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
StACase wrote:I'd rate scientific reasoning ability among educational groups, not nationality. Your opinion based on nationality is very bigoted. Do you have opinions on gender and race as well?
If you think that all nationalities have educational systems of equal quality, you have what I'd consider a very strange view of things.
If you think American universities are of lower quality than other nationalities, you have a strange view. Or did I not read your post correctly that you think the Americans have a poor understanding of science and technology, poor critical thinking skills, and are incapable of making good decisions based on scientific data.

I can only conclude that you are speaking of American universities. You might ponder why American universities attract so many foreign students.
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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by bhrobards » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:25 am

StACase: Sorry, As I recall the blurb said:Superior 95%, Huron 80% and Erie 65%. Nothing about the other two.

I agree with Chris (it hurts) science and math are doing poorly in the US. We're trying to improve in Texas and its still not near good enough.

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by BMAONE23 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:30 am

StACase wrote:
BMAONE23 wrote:I'm not sure I understand your point or is it a question???
Oh I'm sure you do, but just incase you really don't, my point is that no matter what the rest of the world does, it isn't going to matter much if China continues on their current path. They are, afterall, the world's largest emitter of CO2. India has already told the rest of the world to take a hike regarding CO2 emission controls. China and India and perhaps a few others are living room elephants that don't get discussed much.

So, considering China and India do you think, we can significantly reduce human CO2 emissions?
First it should be obvious that according to my responce to your blanket query, that your responce clearly indicates I didn't understand your question. Now it seems to be a reference to Well, If China can do it, then Why can't I because that appears to be your stance.

So it sounds to me like you are agreeing that Man has an impact, if you are showing concern over what China and India are doing, It would tend to show agreement on your part that their actions and similar actions from others has a direct effect.

But the change needed will begin at home with someone leading the way. The changes need to be personal.
Last edited by BMAONE23 on Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by BMAONE23 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:41 am

StACase wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: ...In any case, both India and China's per capita CO2 production are a fraction of that of the U.S. So action by America to reduce it's absurd output is a very good political step in influencing the rest of the world to follow suit ...
No mention of any other country, just the United States. That's what it's about isn't it. That's all "Global Warming" has ever been about. Scratch the average liberal and you will get a vitrolic anti-American screed. These people hate themselves, their country, their heritage. God only knows what makes them tick, I sure don't!
Interesting that you should ejaculate the term "Liberal" into the conversation when the Anti-AGW movement has a much more Liberal Agenda (a breif excerpt from WIKI 'Those who identify themselves as classical liberals, to distinguish themselves from social liberals, oppose all government regulation of business and the economy, with the exception of laws against force and fraud, and support free market laissez-faire capitalism." It would seem to me that being against regulations that would act in favor of Carbon reduction is along the Liberal idiology.

FYI, I am Republican. From a republican family and am considered conservative among my peers. I will also be the first to admit that more than a few of the prior republican administrations have been laughable.

So perhaps it is you that is the Liberal

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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by Chris Peterson » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:47 am

StACase wrote:If you think American universities are of lower quality than other nationalities, you have a strange view. Or did I not read your post correctly that you think the Americans have a poor understanding of science and technology, poor critical thinking skills, and are incapable of making good decisions based on scientific data.
I don't think that American universities are, on the whole, particularly good. I do think that the best American universities are the best educational institutions in the world. But that does not mean the typical graduate of a typical university necessarily has a good education.

That said, the problem isn't the universities, it is the public education system through high school. That's where the damage is being done. By the time they enter universities, it is already too late for most.
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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by StACase » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:18 am

Chris Peterson wrote:... the problem isn't the universities, it is the public education system through high school. That's where the damage is being done ...
Hmmmm, as I understand it, many high schools show Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth as part of the curriculum, so perhaps you have a point.
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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by aristarchusinexile » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:11 pm

StACase wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:(especially the American public) ... The common lack of scientific reasoning ability is not an opinion or value judgment, but a statement of fact based on numerous studies and test results.
I'd rate scientific reasoning ability among educational groups, not nationality. Your opinion based on nationality is very bigoted. Do you have opinions on gender and race as well?
I don't think Chris's opinion is based on nationality, but on the makeup of the population of the nation. IMOPO Hollywood has the biggest influence on U.S. society, incredibly far ahead of, for instance, the bible on which the 'nation' of America justifies itself. Scientific reasoning or Spiritual codes just cannot withstand the brainwashing of the 'Consumer is God' message television and Hollywood has always promoted first and foremost. I read a National Geographic article on the coal mining destruction of the (Appalacians?) in which a homeowner lamented that his driveway had caved in because of mining erosion, saying, 'There used to be five automobiles parked in that driveway.' That has nothing to do with nationalism .. but it is what I see as fullfilling the lifestyle image Hollywood sells, with the environment paying the price and the people living in the environment being killed by the disease producing effects of their purchase.
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Re: Antarctic Ice Shelf Vista (2009 Feb 15)

Post by aristarchusinexile » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:26 pm

bhrobards wrote:I'll go for cleaning up industry, I'll go for many things. Human beings are generally not nice, especially politicians. But this self-loathing fingerpointing at Caucasians and equivilency between free-enterprisers- capitalists-corporate ceos and imperialists-conquistadors-communists is a little much. Its a matter of scale and context. Make corporations be clean but don't imply that they a craven murderers of millions because they aren't. In my experience all of humanity has been at each others throats since time immemorial, including aboriginees in the New World.
Please forgive me, I forgot to mention the murder of millions or tens of millions of Black Africans by starvation and disease enroute to the New World aboard Slave ships .. and the hundreds of thousands murdered here. I forgot to mention George Washington not celebrating Freedom with the Black Napoleon of Haiti who overthrew the tyrany of the French, and the subsequent U.S. destruction of that island nation which had followed in George Washington's footsteps marching for Freedom. How about the indigenous Revolution in the Philipines which cast off Spanish Tyranny, the Philipine Heroes of Freedom being cast into concentration camps when the U.S. armed forces sailed into those liberated islands. Being a Canadian, I found it hard to mention how one of our most lauded Prime Ministers united our vast nation by building a railroad, first having all the buffalo killed so as not to hinder the trains, the near extinction of the Buffalo leading to near extinction of several nations of peoples on the Prairies. Scale and context? Tell me, please, how our New World genocides and infantacides differ from from Old World mass murders .. how Babylon on this side of the Atlantic and Pacific differ from Babylon on the other side? I will tell you .. only in technology used. And we wonder why the earth will burn? No need to wonder at all.
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