Speed of light

[makc]

Nereid locked "Red Shift Alternative" at about the time this thread originated (January 20 or 21, depending on time zone).

This one is in logs,

Nereid Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:45 am Locked topic » Red Shift Alternative

but no other lockages around that date.

[Superdoc]

Wrong. You started a topic with a meaningless subject. It was initially locked by a moderator for obvious reasons. Time-traveling aliens are stuff for Saturday morning cartoons at best. After the topic was unlocked, the rest of us made it interesting. And now you act superior and expect us to stand at attention, salute you, and apologize? What a joke. Even serious contributors know they have no control over a thread once it is started. Note that the first reply (mine) was 100% serious, and a lot better answer than your question deserved.

Hi, I'm not against you or anybody else, and i'm sorry of my post seemed like you assumed, but if this topic was locked by anyone then let it be locked, understanding this does not concern to the real astronomy or something, i do respect your comment on my post earlier but lets not drag this anyfurther before someone else reads the whole thread and starts posting and cause more trouble/confusion.

PS: maybe i made a mistake posting that subject here.

Regards,

[apodman]

maybe i made a mistake posting that subject here.

I don't think so, though the subject may have been introduced a bit oddly. You could also say the human species is introduced a bit oddly by our deep space probes - certainly cryptically.

The time travel business may be beyond science and into pure conjecture and so opens the door for frivolous commentary, but people around here (myself included) are prone to frivolous commentary anyway; there's nothing wrong with pure fun (as opposed to scientific nerd fun which we like best) as long as we know it's the icing, not the cake.

Aliens are real (probably - at least the people who made the messages proceeded as if there is a finite chance of it reaching intelligent exo-life), and the questions of what they would think about our Voyager Golden Record and our Pioneer Plaque are quite legitimate. If I wanted to talk about the aliens who are buzzing my house in their superior spacecraft (it's just the traffic helicopter - I live 100 feet from the Capital Beltway) or the ones who melted my neighbor's brain (something happened to it, but not that), then it would be outside the scope of this forum.

The answer to the "what would aliens think and how would they react" necessarily has cultural as well as astronomical aspects. Since we know absolutely nothing about alien culture, everything is conjecture, but we can still make some educated and logical assumptions and guesses. Reconsidering the message itself, wondering about possible misinterpretations, and casting a cynical light on the messages' truth in advertising are all interesting to me.

And surely the information carried by our probes will be out of date (by how many years, who knows?) by the time anyone far away would see it, but I don't know much that can be said or done about it. These probes could last a very long time and travel a very long way.

I personally see no reason to do anything with this wonderful thread other than to let it continue. There are plenty of other threads around here that better represent the values of trouble and confusion.

[apodman]

... but no other lockages around that date.

So cosmic rays it is.

[makc]

aww, too bad you two cant give hugs to each other. would make an awesome picture to post in the thread. how about taking it in parts and photoshopping together then?

...and the questions of what they would think about our Voyager Golden Record...

hey what about this: the alien life form are tiny creatures floating in open space who, like our viruses, are totally inactive until they come into contact with their food, and what if they are feeding on rock and metal? certainly, if they were capable of anything remotely resembling thinking, their only thought would be, "DELICIOUS".

[apodman]

Sorry, I'm not real huggable. Nor photogenic - my eBay avatar is a picture of Saturn and all my other avatars are the off-the-shelf silhouette. You can photoshop one of them if you like. And who could compete with your picture?

Personally, I'm in favor of anyone or anything (but no hostile invaders, please) finding our message. It's not hard to improve on the lousy treatment they gave it in Star Trek: The Motion Picture (1979).

[Superdoc]

I don't think so, though the subject may have been introduced a bit oddly. You could also say the human species is introduced a bit oddly by our deep space probes - certainly cryptically.

I Partly agree that i did not realize this would sound a bit odd and that i should've thought of a better way to put it.

The answer to the "what would aliens think and how would they react" necessarily has cultural as well as astronomical aspects. Since we know absolutely nothing about alien culture, everything is conjecture, but we can still make some educated and logical assumptions and guesses. Reconsidering the message itself, wondering about possible misinterpretations, and casting a cynical light on the messages' truth in advertising are all interesting to me.

I Greatly appreciate your comment and i do know there is absolutely no clue how we could even guess or tell about their culture and behavior, so i admit i asked a silly question on "What aliens think"

And surely the information carried by our probes will be out of date (by how many years, who knows?) by the time anyone far away would see it, but I don't know much that can be said or done about it. These probes could last a very long time and travel a very long way.

Like the scientists assume, and like you say it could last a very long time or on the opposit it could get hit by a moving object in space and end the vision of the sender.

I think you've said more than what i thought Apodman and Thank you verymuch for the time you have taken to write the last post of yours, Which makes nearly perfect sense, has also given me a opportunity to think before posting topics with subject like this.

Regards,

[apodman]

money is important to the world because without money people would be poor

Lack of money is the root of all evil.

Some aliens might regard our probes only for their salvage value.

---

... think before posting topics

I've actually tried that, and it doesn't work as well as the textbook says. Silly topics turn serious and serious topics turn crazy despite the best planning (except in alien cultures where they have a collective brain).

[Superdoc]

I've actually tried that, and it doesn't work as well as the textbook says.

Are you saying Based on Philosophy?

[apodman]

I don't know exactly what you are asking, but all I am saying is my best thinking has never been successful at influencing a discussion to go the way I imagine it. Which is probably a good thing, because with only my thoughts it wouldn't be much of a discussion. There is no actual textbook, it's just a metaphor for theory as opposed to reality.

[aristarchusinexile]

money is important to the world because without money people would be poor

The poor already have no money, and unless the aliens do some counterfeiting or bank robbing, they will have no money either, because who is going to hire someone with 10 heads? (Oops .. I forgot the circus). The Aliens will be profitably employed. The rest of us will be poor.

[makc]

Just about everybody who works in a post office is an alien.

[aristarchusinexile]

Just about everybody who works in a post office is an alien.

That one placed a BIG smile on my face.

[makc]

linky time

[aristarchusinexile]

linky time

Great link, Mac.

[smita]

I am a newbie. So thanks for accepting my naivete.
Also, I am not Christian, so please do not send me any religious stuff. Not interested in that.
That said...
I was watching Universe series on National Geographic channel and began wondering. Is universe finite?
If the universe is expanding at an ever-increasing rate, that means the universe is finite. If it is finite, how big is it?
The universe is ever-expanding, expanding into what? Dark matter? I am totally confused.
Any references I can read to learn about this?

Thanks,
Smita

[Chris Peterson]

I was watching Universe series on National Geographic channel and began wondering. Is universe finite?
If the universe is expanding at an ever-increasing rate, that means the universe is finite. If it is finite, how big is it?

These remain open questions. The finite speed of light means we can only see so far, and it's nearly certain the Universe extends beyond that. Since no direct observation is possible, we must rely on theory alone to assess the part of the Universe we can't see, and very subtle variations in theory can produce huge differences in the estimates of the size of the Universe. Most cosmologists do think the Universe is finite, but there are some who think otherwise, and the possibility of an infinite Universe is taken seriously.

The universe is ever-expanding, expanding into what? Dark matter?

Definitely not dark matter. Dark matter is nothing special, just another form that energy in our Universe can take. The general view is that the Universe is not expanding into anything- or at least, that the question has little or no meaning. However, there are theories arguing for higher dimension hyperuniverses, which may be containers for other universes like our own. As theories go, these are rather weak, since finding ways of testing them is very difficult (and scientifically, any "theory" that can't be tested is unlikely to be taken seriously).

Discussion along these lines come up regularly in this forum, and you can go back and review some topics over the last year or so. But be warned- you'll see some very odd ideas introduced. If you don't have a good sense for distinguishing between science and philosophy, those discussions might leave you even more confused!

[smita]

Thanks Chris, I remember reading something along the lines. Will do more search on this forum.

[aristarchusinexile]

I am a newbie. So thanks for accepting my naivete.
Also, I am not Christian, so please do not send me any religious stuff. Not interested in that.
That said...
I was watching Universe series on National Geographic channel and began wondering. Is universe finite?
If the universe is expanding at an ever-increasing rate, that means the universe is finite. If it is finite, how big is it?
The universe is ever-expanding, expanding into what? Dark matter? I am totally confused.
Any references I can read to learn about this?

Thanks,
Smita

Christianity is not the only religion .. but it is expanding into water.

[astrolabe]

Hello aristarchusinexile,

A fact that is proven can certainly, and without doubt, be a belief. But it is not (and can never be) the other way around in a scientific methodology.

So.......

Christianity is not the only religion .. but it is expanding into water.

According to who?

[makc]

A fact that is proven can certainly, and without doubt, be a belief. But it is not (and can never be) the other way around in a scientific methodology.

what if the guy who proved it gets hit by a bus, and all his records are consumed by fire? we had something similar happened before.

[aristarchusinexile]

Hello aristarchusinexile,

A fact that is proven can certainly, and without doubt, be a belief. But it is not (and can never be) the other way around in a scientific methodology.

So.......

Christianity is not the only religion .. but it is expanding into water.

According to who?

Astro - I was just thinking of you. Thor Heyerdhal's grandson repeated the raft trip. He used a bigger sail, and had 10 steering boards, and took 30 days off the time. I hope he does a book.

The universe is expanding into water according to the ancient Hebrews .. Genesis chapter One. Within five years astronomers will have confirmation .. possibly two years, using the big telescopes being built now.

[astrolabe]

Hello makc,

Thanks for the reply but I don't see the correlation since the theorem didn't irretrievably vanish. The fact still existed and was subsequently brought forward.

[astrolabe]

Hello aristarchusinexile,

The universe is expanding into water according to the ancient Hebrews

All well and good, but not for a scientific forum. Because it cannot be proven to be within current accepted theory? I would have to say yes. And, other than stating that, any arguments by me either for or against such an idea would be meaningless. Not said to be harsh at all, just meant to be a reminder of the parameters in this Forum for rendering a discussion as a scientic astronomy-related (or APOD) topic.

Within five years astronomers will have confirmation .. possibly two years, using the big telescopes being built now.

Until then........................!

[aristarchusinexile]

Hello aristarchusinexile,

The universe is expanding into water according to the ancient Hebrews

All well and good, but not for a scientific forum. Because it cannot be proven to be within current accepted theory? I would have to say yes. And, other than stating that, any arguments by me either for or against such an idea would be meaningless. Not said to be harsh at all, just meant to be a reminder of the parameters in this Forum for rendering a discussion as a scientic astronomy-related (or APOD) topic.

Within five years astronomers will have confirmation .. possibly two years, using the big telescopes being built now.

Until then........................!

I merely answered the question to the best of my ability. One cannot do more than that .. but one can do much less.