by Boomer12k » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:37 am
Chris Peterson wrote:Boomer12k wrote:We only see Visible Light...we need instruments to "see" the rest of the Electromagnetic Spectrum. So right there we see an illusion of light...and not the whole thing. We feel heat. We see a mirage that is actually the heat radiation warming the air and it rising in waves and it refracts the ground around it, into a shimmering illusion of "water". So a Mirage is an illusion of light.
A mirage is an illusion, but the light itself is not- including those parts of the spectrum that we transform so we can see them.
That phrase is a very convenient thing to say...but it is not true...actions in the Universe happened LONG before they reach us...
Not really. Modern physics tells us that events happen when they are observed.
We do not know yet, if Betelgeuse has exploded yet or not...it may have, and we just don't see it as the light has not reached us...THUS what we DO see may be AN ILLUSION...not the real event.
No. It has not exploded. When we look at it, we aren't seeing an illusion, merely photons that were created hundreds of years ago.
So....Actually Chris, you just described why it is an illusion of light...it takes time for the photons to reach the observer, long after the event, and that is ALL we are actually SEEING...photons...
I don't see how that can be called an illusion. Our senses are not being fooled in any way, which seems to me a prerequisite for an illusion.
Point 1. The light is being warped by the effect, so as not to represent the true state of the objects. Pavement for example. Thus the light is contributing to the illusion, and light, in the form of heat, infrared light, is causing the illusion in the first place, a light we don't see with our eye. Second part: As our eyes perceive things, we do not see the radiation that fills the blackness of space. Thus it is an illusion, to us, that the night sky is "empty". That is why I said we need instruments. The light may not be the illusion, but our eye perceives it as one, by not seeing what IS there. That space is empty is an illusion, we only see a select part of the EM spectrum. It is like those composite shots of visual, x-ray, ultra violet images of like a galaxy, and you see the regular visible galaxy, then the x-ray shows the gas jet, etc... things we did not know were there with just our vision...thus the illusion of only light we see. So we had an incomplete picture. You can call that an illusion of the EYE if you want to...but it is the different wavelengths of light that is doing it also. The result is an illusion.
Point 2. Like I said...a matter of convenience...That generally refers to Quantum Mechanics, (Quantum Theory), in Physics, where the observer is affecting that which he is observing, just by the act of observing it. So a phenomena does not appear to exist before you observed it. This is Astronomy. We are looking at events that have already taken place, and the photons from the event are reaching us without our creating it, or affecting it just by our participation in observing it. Thus the statement does not truly apply. (My considered opinion.) (Leads into point 3) Just because photons from Betelgeuse do not show an explosion tonight, does not mean they will not show the explosion tomorrow night, and that does not mean it JUST NOW HAPPENED because that is what we observe, as you yourself said, it took hundreds of years for the light to travel here, ergo, it happened hundreds of years ago, Not "when it was observed", (although I realize a Scientist may look at it that way, but that does not make it consistent in all cases)...what we see may well be the truth of that explosion, but the time and distance, that we see it hundreds of years later, is a type of illusion. It is a projection of the light, like a movie, or slideshow, it does reflect and show the true event, it is a result of the event, but it did not just happen now as we observe it, that is an illusion... That is like the illusion of the FLAT EARTH. I can take a 6 foot 2x4 out in the yard, put it down flat, and as it is observed to be flat, claim the world is flat. (there was actually a guy out in the desert that used to do this. Really. You could show him ANYTHING that showed the Earth to be round, and he had some explanation as to why it was WRONG, and the world was flat, impossible to convince him otherwise, a real kook).
Point 4. Not all illusions are deliberately trying to fool you, deceive your senses, etc...This APOD is set up as a trick. As it sets up a supposition that an area in shadow should be darker. A mirage is not trying to fool you on purpose...it just is...You would say, but the photon is just doing the same thing "it just is" also. That is not necessarily the illusion. A Supernova occurs close by, say LMC, Like SN 1987A. How long does that Supernova "appear" to be visible for us without a telescope? (Well, Type 1 any where from hours to days. And Type 2 up to several months) OK...supernova is 168,000 light years away. Happened 168,000 years ago. It was visible maybe for several months with unaided eye. You would say that since you just observed it, that is just happened now??? I would call it a 168,000 year illusion of light, because that event is loooonnng over the main brightness stage over there in the LMC...THAT is the illusion. That it just happened now. It did not. It was observed now, but did not happen now. That is also created by Light, and the vast distance and time that it has to travel. Not that the light is deceiving you, showing you something false on purpose...so an illusion may be "impersonal" in its intent. Like Arctic Mirages of Ice. Nothing personal. Just is. The other illusion is...just because we no longer see SN 1987A with the unaided eye does not mean the event is over with...it is not...it is still continuing and we see that though telescopes which are still observing it...years later as it expands... must be awesome to be there...not too close of course.
Light maybe showing truth...but that truth is not happening when we observe it. We are only observing the photons...NOT THE ACTUAL EVENT! We see only an image...a facsimile of the event, a projection of the event. That is what a photon is, a projection. Not the galaxy...just a projection OF the galaxy...That is an illusion of light. It is an emitted impression. If there was something in the way, it would be blocked, and we would perceive a shadow...a lack of photons, lack of image, lack of projection, but the galaxy is still there.
Thus there is no prerequisite in this case for an illusion...the APOD yes...it is an optical illusion, and it is a trick of how it is set up. I was talking about illusions as related to Astronomy.
Galactic Lensing as an effect is an illusion, there is no true horseshoe shaped galaxy wrapped around the other galaxy...it is an illusion of light, passing through warped space...yes? Not trying to deceive you in anyway...but it is an illusion. It is not really the actual case of being. Einstein predicted that without observing it first. Also, Solar gravitational illusion of a star that is actually hidden behind the Sun, but appears to be already visible...his famous experiment. Predicted before observation. Therefore...warped space, and light, not actually showing the actual case of being, an illusion...but they are not TRYING to deceive your perception in anyway. Nothing personal...just is.
I am not really trying to argue points here, (Truly, not what I am after,) or anything of the sort. I just delineated them for convenience, as you took them as points too... I am trying to give explanations, and examples of what I have put forth, in my previous statements about some of the Astronomical and other illusions we see as it related to this APOD. I have studied this "illusion of light" phenomena for about 5 years. You obviously work with it...but don't acknowledge it as it is probably not necessary for your work.
I admire the work you do, Sir, your comments, and Cloudbait must be just awesome to work at.
:---[===] *
- Attachments
-
- Quite the illusion of light and warped space.
Existed, before we observed it. Predicted effect before
we observed it. Einstein was aware of this effect before
it was observed. That is why we call him a Genius.
[quote="Chris Peterson"][quote="Boomer12k"]We only see Visible Light...we need instruments to "see" the rest of the Electromagnetic Spectrum. So right there we see an illusion of light...and not the whole thing. We feel heat. We see a mirage that is actually the heat radiation warming the air and it rising in waves and it refracts the ground around it, into a shimmering illusion of "water". So a Mirage is an illusion of light.[/quote]
A mirage is an illusion, but the light itself is not- including those parts of the spectrum that we transform so we can see them.
[quote]That phrase is a very convenient thing to say...but it is not true...actions in the Universe happened LONG before they reach us...[/quote]
Not really. Modern physics tells us that events happen when they are observed.
[quote]We do not know yet, if Betelgeuse has exploded yet or not...it may have, and we just don't see it as the light has not reached us...THUS what we DO see may be AN ILLUSION...not the real event.[/quote]
No. It has not exploded. When we look at it, we aren't seeing an illusion, merely photons that were created hundreds of years ago.
[quote]So....Actually Chris, you just described why it is an illusion of light...it takes time for the photons to reach the observer, long after the event, and that is ALL we are actually SEEING...photons...[/quote]
I don't see how that can be called an illusion. Our senses are not being fooled in any way, which seems to me a prerequisite for an illusion.[/quote]
Point 1. The light is being warped by the effect, so as not to represent the true state of the objects. Pavement for example. Thus the light is contributing to the illusion, and light, in the form of heat, infrared light, is causing the illusion in the first place, a light we don't see with our eye. Second part: As our eyes perceive things, we do not see the radiation that fills the blackness of space. Thus it is an illusion, to us, that the night sky is "empty". That is why I said we need instruments. The light may not be the illusion, but our eye perceives it as one, by not seeing what IS there. That space is empty is an illusion, we only see a select part of the EM spectrum. It is like those composite shots of visual, x-ray, ultra violet images of like a galaxy, and you see the regular visible galaxy, then the x-ray shows the gas jet, etc... things we did not know were there with just our vision...thus the illusion of only light we see. So we had an incomplete picture. You can call that an illusion of the EYE if you want to...but it is the different wavelengths of light that is doing it also. The result is an illusion.
Point 2. Like I said...a matter of convenience...That generally refers to Quantum Mechanics, (Quantum Theory), in Physics, where the observer is affecting that which he is observing, just by the act of observing it. So a phenomena does not appear to exist before you observed it. This is Astronomy. We are looking at events that have already taken place, and the photons from the event are reaching us without our creating it, or affecting it just by our participation in observing it. Thus the statement does not truly apply. (My considered opinion.) (Leads into point 3) Just because photons from Betelgeuse do not show an explosion tonight, does not mean they will not show the explosion tomorrow night, and that does not mean it JUST NOW HAPPENED because that is what we observe, as you yourself said, it took hundreds of years for the light to travel here, ergo, it happened hundreds of years ago, Not "when it was observed", (although I realize a Scientist may look at it that way, but that does not make it consistent in all cases)...what we see may well be the truth of that explosion, but the time and distance, that we see it hundreds of years later, is a type of illusion. It is a projection of the light, like a movie, or slideshow, it does reflect and show the true event, it is a result of the event, but it did not just happen now as we observe it, that is an illusion... That is like the illusion of the FLAT EARTH. I can take a 6 foot 2x4 out in the yard, put it down flat, and as it is observed to be flat, claim the world is flat. (there was actually a guy out in the desert that used to do this. Really. You could show him ANYTHING that showed the Earth to be round, and he had some explanation as to why it was WRONG, and the world was flat, impossible to convince him otherwise, a real kook).
Point 4. Not all illusions are deliberately trying to fool you, deceive your senses, etc...This APOD is set up as a trick. As it sets up a supposition that an area in shadow should be darker. A mirage is not trying to fool you on purpose...it just is...You would say, but the photon is just doing the same thing "it just is" also. That is not necessarily the illusion. A Supernova occurs close by, say LMC, Like SN 1987A. How long does that Supernova "appear" to be visible for us without a telescope? (Well, Type 1 any where from hours to days. And Type 2 up to several months) OK...supernova is 168,000 light years away. Happened 168,000 years ago. It was visible maybe for several months with unaided eye. You would say that since you just observed it, that is just happened now??? I would call it a 168,000 year illusion of light, because that event is loooonnng over the main brightness stage over there in the LMC...THAT is the illusion. That it just happened now. It did not. It was observed now, but did not happen now. That is also created by Light, and the vast distance and time that it has to travel. Not that the light is deceiving you, showing you something false on purpose...so an illusion may be "impersonal" in its intent. Like Arctic Mirages of Ice. Nothing personal. Just is. The other illusion is...just because we no longer see SN 1987A with the unaided eye does not mean the event is over with...it is not...it is still continuing and we see that though telescopes which are still observing it...years later as it expands... must be awesome to be there...not too close of course.
Light maybe showing truth...but that truth is not happening when we observe it. We are only observing the photons...NOT THE ACTUAL EVENT! We see only an image...a facsimile of the event, a projection of the event. That is what a photon is, a projection. Not the galaxy...just a projection OF the galaxy...That is an illusion of light. It is an emitted impression. If there was something in the way, it would be blocked, and we would perceive a shadow...a lack of photons, lack of image, lack of projection, but the galaxy is still there.
Thus there is no prerequisite in this case for an illusion...the APOD yes...it is an optical illusion, and it is a trick of how it is set up. I was talking about illusions as related to Astronomy.
Galactic Lensing as an effect is an illusion, there is no true horseshoe shaped galaxy wrapped around the other galaxy...it is an illusion of light, passing through warped space...yes? Not trying to deceive you in anyway...but it is an illusion. It is not really the actual case of being. Einstein predicted that without observing it first. Also, Solar gravitational illusion of a star that is actually hidden behind the Sun, but appears to be already visible...his famous experiment. Predicted before observation. Therefore...warped space, and light, not actually showing the actual case of being, an illusion...but they are not TRYING to deceive your perception in anyway. Nothing personal...just is.
I am not really trying to argue points here, (Truly, not what I am after,) or anything of the sort. I just delineated them for convenience, as you took them as points too... I am trying to give explanations, and examples of what I have put forth, in my previous statements about some of the Astronomical and other illusions we see as it related to this APOD. I have studied this "illusion of light" phenomena for about 5 years. You obviously work with it...but don't acknowledge it as it is probably not necessary for your work.
I admire the work you do, Sir, your comments, and Cloudbait must be just awesome to work at.
:---[===] *