Arp 273 - November 15 2008

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Expand view Topic review: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by astrolabe » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:39 pm

Hello Sputnick,
Gee, could the expansion properties of Dark Energy be working at QM levels. By the way Dark Energy, from what's been said, is perfectly theoretical because it fits the current model, Dark Matter is not theoretical- because it does not fit the current model.

Gotta go.

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by astrolabe » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:28 pm

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by Sputnick » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:27 pm

astrolabe wrote:Hello Sputnick,

I think it's like Tinkerbell through the leaf myself, but your right, redshift is where it's at. I doubt if it was ever a binary BH system that came apart because of like charges repelling. Which brings up an old thought of mine (oh no! Not that!) If BH"s are so prevalent down to say quantum level in size, what DOES keep 'em apart?
So far all I've taken ahold of from reading about Quantum Mechanics is that it is said 'quantum fluctuations could cause stars to arise from nothing' (stopping Einstein dead in his tracks in the middle of a busy road). I will add, if stars can arise from nothing, why not the universe .. no Big Bang being needed .. Expansion and Red Shift being explained by the seeming law that nothing stands still except in infinity.


Returning to the Nov. 15 photo .. I do see a possibility that a large enough Dark Hole, say in our galaxy, could create its own galaxy .. with nature saying they would separate to maintain their individual identities.

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by astrolabe » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:17 pm

Hello Sputnick,

I think it's like Tinkerbell through the leaf myself, but your right, redshift is where it's at. I doubt if it was ever a binary BH system that came apart because of like charges repelling. Which brings up an old thought of mine (oh no! Not that!) If BH"s are so prevalent down to say quantum level in size, what DOES keep 'em apart?

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by Sputnick » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:15 pm

astrolabe wrote:Hello All,

The "gap" in the upper part of the larger Galaxy's disk appears to be complementary to the shape and orientation of the smaller. Illusory?
Excellent observation Astro, and my instinct says you're correct; and that either the smaller galaxy sprung from (was birthed by?) the larger, or the larger is opening up in preparation for a merge. Redshift might tell the story.

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by astrolabe » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:00 pm

Hello All,

The "gap" in the upper part of the larger Galaxy's disk appears to be complementary to the shape and orientation of the smaller. Illusory?

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by Sputnick » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:48 pm

Determining Dark Matter density.

The smaller galaxy's arm closest the large galaxy seems to be bent by rotation against what could be the (theoretical) Dark Matter envelope of the large galaxy. The smaller galaxy's arm farthest from the large galaxy shows no similar bend. Could the degree of bending of the arm be used to determine the density of the theoretical Dark Matter envelope of the large galaxy?

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap081115.html

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by Sputnick » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:30 pm

astrolabe wrote:Hello Sputnick,

Scraped 'em off myself- from myself, even threw in a little egg for good measure. Oh, the perils of not being perfect!
Ain't love grand! What a time we shall have exploring Pluto.

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by astrolabe » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:12 pm

Hello Sputnick,

Scraped 'em off myself- from myself, even threw in a little egg for good measure. Oh, the perils of not being perfect!

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by Sputnick » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:57 pm

astrolabe wrote:Hello Sputnick,

I wll, wouldn't mind going there myself. I know I've got some tar and feather's left over somewhere. if when we get there we'll have to have a chat.
Tar and feathers you scraped off from yourself? Or simply what you have kept around to fix your nest?

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by astrolabe » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:39 pm

Hello Sputnick,

I wll, wouldn't mind going there myself. I know I've got some tar and feather's left over somewhere. if when we get there we'll have to have a chat.

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by Sputnick » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:29 pm

astrolabe wrote:Hello All,

My use of the term TAR BABY was in bad taste, unfair, and inappropriate, my apologies.
I've been tarred and feathered so often I'm becoming comfortable with the costume .. convenient for Hallowe'en - and if I can rearrange my feathers, and find a way to inject helium into the tar, I might be gifted with flight. Watch for a strange apparaition appearing among the moons of the PLANET Pluto.

Re: November 15 2008

by Sputnick » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:19 pm

astrolabe wrote:Hello Sputnick,

What energies?
Theoretically (using that term loosely of course) the energies generated from the 'friction' or other interaction of Dark Matter as it encounters itself. I think measurements will reveal heat slightly higher than the Cosmic Background Radiation .. unless of course the standard measure for CBM is Dark Matter heated by those interactions .. standard measurements possibly having been made inside a 'river' of CBR which may be carrying our local group of galaxies along with its close neighbours towards the Great Attractor. I think the measurements will vary according to the amount of interaction.

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by apodman » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:19 pm

astrolabe wrote:I wonder if ole' "2K" has posted yet.
That would be reboots on the anticrepuscular thread ...
http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 689#p98689

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by astrolabe » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:30 pm

Hello apodman,

I wonder if ole' "2K" has posted yet.

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by apodman » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:52 pm

astrolabe wrote:You people are quicker than most normal human beings.
Yes, and with exactly 2000 members registered in this forum as of today, there are also more of us than there are "normal" human beings (to serve you better).

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by astrolabe » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:17 pm

Hello BMAONE23,

Yes, of coures. Why didn't I think of that. You people are quicker than most normal human beings.

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by BMAONE23 » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:01 pm

Perhaps you should have said "STAR BABY"

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by astrolabe » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:56 pm

Hello All,

My use of the term TAR BABY was in bad taste, unfair, and inappropriate, my apologies.

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by astrolabe » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:20 pm

Hello apodman,

Absolutely! And with TAR BABY no less.

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by apodman » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:15 pm

astrolabe wrote:... the Café again
Not the briar patch!

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by astrolabe » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:09 pm

Hello neufer,
neufer wrote:
Sputnick wrote:http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap081115.html
If these Galaxies are enveloped in Dark Matter - the envelopes will be interacting .. possibly exchanging energies - are these exchanges being searched for?
. "No matter how much you push the envelope, it's still stationery."

After due consideration I find Sputnick's question to be deeply thought provoking.

I would think that spherically symmetrical [density ~ A/(B + C * r^2)] envelopes of galactic dark matter would indeed be the first things to interact with the primary result being that the smaller galaxy would drain off more dark matter from the large galaxy (than it would lose to it). Among other things, this would probably cause the smaller galaxy to rotate faster (which should be observable).

Still, the two major dynamic feature IMO would be:

1) very strong tidal forces on the smaller galaxy and
2) the free streaming of stars that approach the gravitationally neutral Lagrange point L1.
Okay, I guess, but I find the line of logic in Sputnick's post from start to finish somewhat disturbing. and sets up arguments the will end up in the Cafe again.

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by neufer » Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:41 pm

Sputnick wrote:http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap081115.html
If these Galaxies are enveloped in Dark Matter - the envelopes will be interacting .. possibly exchanging energies - are these exchanges being searched for?
. "No matter how much you push the envelope, it's still stationery."

After due consideration I find Sputnick's question to be deeply thought provoking.

I would think that spherically symmetrical [density ~ A/(B + C * r^2)] envelopes of galactic dark matter would indeed be the first things to interact with the primary result being that the smaller galaxy would drain off more dark matter from the large galaxy (than it would lose to it). Among other things, this would probably cause the smaller galaxy to rotate faster (which should be observable).

Still, the two major dynamic feature IMO would be:

1) very strong tidal forces on the smaller galaxy and
2) the free streaming of stars that approach the gravitationally neutral Lagrange point L1.

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by DavidLeodis » Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:18 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
BMAONE23 wrote:Presuming that the bright source @ 4:00 is a foreground star, are you refering to the arc just above that bright point?
If so, there is another in the diffraction spike of the red foreground star (near the smaller galaxy) and another in the very faint tidal trail at the 9:30 position about twice the distance from the center to the end of the apparent bright arm.
Every one of those faint, fuzzy, not quite star-like objects in the picture is a distant galaxy, unrelated to the foreground galaxies. I counted up to ten of them before I quit.
Yes there are lots of probable galaxies that are particularly noticeable in the large version that is brought up by clicking on the image that is brought up through the 'this colorful skyscape' link. Some of those galaxies have a fascinating apperance. It's quite awe inspiring that most of the 'stars' are likely to be galaxies. The Universe is a wondrous delight. :)

Re: Arp 273 - November 15 2008

by Chris Peterson » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:40 am

BMAONE23 wrote:Presuming that the bright source @ 4:00 is a foreground star, are you refering to the arc just above that bright point?
If so, there is another in the diffraction spike of the red foreground star (near the smaller galaxy) and another in the very faint tidal trail at the 9:30 position about twice the distance from the center to the end of the apparent bright arm.
Every one of those faint, fuzzy, not quite star-like objects in the picture is a distant galaxy, unrelated to the foreground galaxies. I counted up to ten of them before I quit.

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