APOD: SN 1006 Supernova Remnant (2008 Jul 04)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: SN 1006 Supernova Remnant (2008 Jul 04)

Re: APOD 2008 July 4 - SN 1006 Supernova Remnant

by iampete » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:19 am

starnut wrote: . . . The core's gravity would have caused the matter to curve inwards behind the core, the amount of deflection depending on the distance from the core. Even at the very high speed of the blast front, there would still be deflection of matter, and over the period of a thousand years, the deflected matter would have filled in the inside of the disk as it expanded away from the center. . .
I'm not convinced of the permanence of the "fill in" of the inside of the disk. It seems to me that the deflected material would continue to move outwards, but at varying (but still very small) angles from radially outward (dependent on the amount of deflection). Any material that changed its radially outward path to "fill in" the inside of the disk would continue in a straight line to exit that "fill in" area as well with the passage of time. In other words, any "filling in" would be only a temporary phenomenon. I'm certain someone with a little more expertise than I could calculate the duration that the "fill in" material would take to exit.

Re: APOD 2008 July 4 - SN 1006 Supernova Remnant

by starnut » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:46 am

neufer wrote: There may well be nothing left but an insignificant (and hard to find) brown dwarf
(; perhaps the Spitzer IR telescope could be used to look for such things).
I don't think so. During the red giant phase, the companion's core would be fusing helium at very high temperature, so when it lost its outer layer due to the blast wave, the exposed core should be shining very brightly and should remain that way even in the last thousand years. We need to find a bow shock somewhere inside the supernova remnant that would show the location of the speeding core plowing through the inside.

With regards to the "smoke ring", after reading the discussions here on whether the bright line is the edge-on view of the "smoke ring" or something else caused by the blast going through the red giant companion, I have given it some thought. I believe that it is more of a disk than a ring. Consider what happened when the blast front and the red giant's outer layer were blown past the red giant's core. The core's gravity would have caused the matter to curve inwards behind the core, the amount of deflection depending on the distance from the core. Even at the very high speed of the blast front, there would still be deflection of matter, and over the period of a thousand years, the deflected matter would have filled in the inside of the disk as it expanded away from the center. I noticed a slight darkening between the edges of the "ribbon" in the Hubble image, which I interpreted to be the interior of the disk. I would like to see closeups of the both ends of the bright line in the APOD image, to see if they are brighter due to the curvature of the edge of the disk.

Gary

Re: New data, new fun

by henk21cm » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:25 am

Case and Apodman wrote:Exactly, so some parts of the far side should be visible. Lacking that, there may not be a far side.
Correct. In an earlier comment i pointed out that -although not impossible- it is rather unlikely that the alignment is exactly edge on. Since this type of explosions is not uncommon, at least there must a dozen of similar structures visible, in which we can see the entire smoke ring. I have never seen such images (which is no proof that they do not exist).

Even if we 'think away' the yellow ellips in the drawing, the missing top part of the sphere is striking. At least the partial blocking of the explosion by the binary is a good working hypothesis. No scrutize it. Suppose there is no blocking. What other phenomenon may cause the disappearence of the top of the sphere?
  1. A suggestion is that the explosion hits a denser area in the interstellar dust or gas. That would have led to a decelleration of the gas, and thus Bremstrahlung. That phenomenon, located at the top of the sphere, is strikingly absent in the radio image.
  2. The explosion might have hit a local magnetic field. Usually interstellar magnetic fields are not local, unless there is an object in the direct vicinity. An objection to this argument is that a local magnetic field would not have blocked the path of the explosion, where the magnetic field is not as apparent as in the filament. In other words, in the composite image (bottom left) we would have seen a blue circular background with a yellow filament superimposed.
So the blocking hypothesis is still standing.

Apodman, i read some of the legal issue on the wiki pages. "Itchy". As far as i understand it, "profit making" and "profit lost by the copyright owner" is the key. Profit may be abstract, like name branding or reputation.

In the scientific and educational world it is sufficient to refer to the intellectual owner of an idea -Einsteins General Relativity- or physical owner of data -Spitzers images- and use the data for your analysis of a theory, explain a theory or build a new one. As far as i understand it, the purpose of this forum and its (APOD) accompanying website is (semi-)scientific and educational. Issue solved. Thanks for the assistance.

Re: New data, new fun

by Case » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:18 am

apodman wrote:but the far part appears here and there and obscured.
Exactly, so some parts of the far side should be visible. Lacking that, there may not be a far side.

Re: New data, new fun

by apodman » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:11 am

Case wrote:I'm not convinced yet
Well, believing is still a little short of being convinced (the way I'm using the language today, anyway).

But I wouldn't expect to see a loop in the Hubble picture, which I interpret to be a close-up of a small section of the ribbon or loop.

And as far as a loop goes, I picture holding a floppy rubber band edge-on in front of my eyes: I see the near part of the loop as a continuous band in focus, but the far part appears here and there and obscured. I admit that "seeing" the far part of the yellow "smoke ring" requires a bit of imagination.

Re: New data, new fun

by Case » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:01 am

apodman wrote:
henk21cm wrote:Neufer suggested a smoke ring ... the yellow circle is seen almost 'edge on'.
I see it and I believe.
I see the close-up by Hubble, and I'm not convinced yet; nothing that looks like a loop.

Re: Legal question

by apodman » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:37 pm

henk21cm wrote:i have a legal question
IA also NAL, but here's some US law from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use (my italics) ...

"The fair use of a copyrighted work ... for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching ..., scholarship, or research ... is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#F ... e_Internet (a subsection of the same article).

TINLA, but I believe everything we usually do in this forum falls under the definition of fair use regardless of any conditions set by the copyright owner. Even when using material under the fair use doctrine, giving proper credit and complying with a copyright owner's policies and requests (within the bounds of common sense) is a courtesy and a good practice. Don't expect the copyright police at your door just for not dotting your i's or crossing your t's, though - if I were to see someone using my copyrighted work in a way I don't approve, I would tap them on the shoulder and ask them to "cease and desist" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cease_and_desist - before I filed suit.

Re: New data, new fun

by apodman » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:20 pm

henk21cm wrote:Neufer suggested a smoke ring ... the yellow circle is seen almost 'edge on'.
I see it and I believe.

New data, new fun

by henk21cm » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:13 pm

Case and iampete wrote:"And I would put you and this forum in the {non-commercial} category."
resp.
"I have the same opinion on this as Case"
Thanks for you point of view. When legal issues are on my path, i feel unpleasantly itchy.
bystander wrote: The Chandra page said the stars were added from AAO2. You might be able to use the same data to get rid of them.
Also, there is a two color xray image on the Chandra page that might provide more insight to the xray data.
These new data have led to a new set of images.

Image
Images: Credit to NASA/CXC/SAO

On the Chandra webpage a visual image is presented. That image shows the filament as a bright yellow line, just in the red and green colour plane. By labeling the objects in the green and red colour plane, and looking for the object containing the largest number of pixels, the filament is identified. There are over 15000 objects in the image, so it requires some number crunching power (roughly an hour) to find the object we are looking for. In this way i extracted the filament and added it to the composite image, left, bottom. The object finding algoritm is not perfect, a few stars are not removed. They are optically very close to the filament, just by coincidence, there is probably no physical interaction.

In the radio image, top right, there are some red specs visible outside the shock front. When you look in detail to these specs at the same location in the visual image, some of them are linked to objects which are larger and fluffier (more fluffy, fuzzy) than the stars. They look like distant galaxies. It is not an artefact of the processing i did on the images.

The shape of the filament is not visible in the radio image. In the X-ray image (top left) the shape of the filament can be seen. It is less sharp as the filament in visible light.

What the structure might be, well, Art Neufer suggested a smoke ring, when part of the atmosphere of the second star is blown away in the explosion. When i look in more detail to the Chandra website images, this idea might be a reasonable suggestion. What it might look like, X-ray and visible data combined and slightly rotated:

Image

In the NASA visible image the yellow circle is seen almost 'edge on'.

I'm still working on the degree of symmetry in the radio image. That will take considerable more time, since i have to write a general function which mirrors the lower part of the image with respect to the symmetry line. The rotation part (forward and backward) is finished.

by iampete » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:12 pm

I have the same opinion on this as Case.

Even if we're wrong, what's the worst that can happen? You will have to return, or sign over to Chandra/Harvard, the millions you will make for posting your results on the APOD forum.:lol:

Re: Legal question

by Case » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:05 pm

IANAL, but here's how I see it:

a. Non-commercial educational and public information purposes. --> Permission granted to use the images, but give credit.

b. All other purposes --> Fill in the form to ask for permission and conditions before using the images.

And I would put you and this forum in the (a) category.

Legal question

by henk21cm » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:09 pm

bystander wrote: Glad I could cause you more work!
Well, that does not matter, its hobby, the last A in JAA (just an amateur). As the subject reads, i have a legal question and i'm not very good in legal questions. I would appreciate some help. On http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/image_use.html it is reported:

<<Quote: To request permission to use Chandra images, video or other media, please use our Permission Request Form. :etouQ>>

When i open the form, http://chandra.harvard.edu/edu/request_perm.html it reads:

<<Quote: The images on this web site may be used for non-commercial educational and public information purposes. Please credit images to "NASA/CXC/SAO" unless other credits are given. In that case, credit the appropriate organization(s) or person(s) as they are listed with the image on our site.

If you have further questions, or a special condition, please submit the following: (request form). :etouQ>>

On the first page it says: fill in the form, on the second page: only if you have special requests, which i do not have. Filling in a form when it is not necessary, causes Chandra extra work, nobody needs. Not filling in the form makes me a freeloader.

Like King Crimson: "Confusion is in my mind".

by bystander » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:55 pm

henk21cm wrote:Your hint to Chandra is much appreciated.
Glad I could cause you more work! :wink:

The Chandra page said the stars were added from AAO2. You might be able to use the same data to get rid of them.
http://archive.stsci.edu/cgi-bin/dss_form

Also, there is a two color xray image on the Chandra page that might provide more insight to the xray data.

by henk21cm » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:22 pm

bystander wrote:Interesting analysis, Henk. I was wondering if you recreated the RGB from the composite picture, or did you use the originals (see http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2008/sn1006c/more.html).
Unfortunatedly the first: i used the larger image under the APOD, which is a combined image. The images at Chandra's site are better for the analysis. Saterday i'll try again with the easier Chandra images.
bystander wrote:and yellow (not green) is the visible spectrum. Does this change your analysis?
Considerably. In an RGB image a yellow line is a combination of a red and green line. So if you mention yellow, it explains why the filament is visible in the green and red colour plane, whereas in the blue it is hardly or not visible. (recognizing colours is not my best asset). Furthermore, since no stars have to be removed, and since the red and green image lack stars, it is much easier to determine the symmetry of the nebula: artefacts introduiced by the removal of the stars are missing. Additionally the images are available as TIFF, which is a lossless format, without the nasty DCT artefacts of a JPG image. Working with TIFF is like sitting in a smooth velvet couch, in stead of on a granite JPG chair. Your hint to Chandra is much appreciated.
bystander wrote:Could the filament be evidence of the atmosphere of the companion star?

I do not know. For me it is rather hard to understand why the blown away atmosphere did not disperse, since the he pressure of the atmosphere is considerably higher than the surrounding interstellar space.
Furthermore it would be a sheer coincidence that the axis through the centers of the two stars is exactly perpendicular to the direction between the stars and our sun.

by bystander » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:32 pm

Interesting analysis, Henk. I was wondering if you recreated the RGB from the composite picture, or did you use the originals (see http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2008/sn1006c/more.html). This isn't a visible light picture (at least not completely). The blue is xray, red radio, and yellow (not green) is the visible spectrum. Does this change your analysis? Could the filament be evidence of the atmosphere of the companion star?

Re: APOD 2008 July 4 - SN 1006 Supernova Remnant

by henk21cm » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:00 pm

neufer wrote: I don't know anything about large hypothetical "relatively dense regions of interstellar material"
but two things we certainly can surmise about about an expanding Ia supernova explosion:
  • 1) It will quickly impact a large companion giant star that is blocking almost one entire hemisphere

    2) and it will first impact the much less significant mass that makes up it's own accretion disk.
Gary and Art, your remark triggered a thought. Initially there is the blast of the expoding star. The companion shields partly the blast. Art mentioned that the shielded area of the hemisphere could be as much as half the visible hemisphere. The blast encounters the companion and blows part of her atmosphere away. If the blast could have been treated as a wave, like in a pond, and if some structure was blocking the wave, it would bend around the object. In a matter of speach, the blast bends similarly around the companion. Alternatively the atmosphere at either side of the core of the companion can be conceived as two independent sources for a secundary blast.

Since the original blast has encountered the relative dense atmosphere of the companion, part of the kinetic energy of the blast is transfered to the companions atmosphere, which is at rest. As a result two things will happen:
  1. The original blast looses some energy and thus velocity and travels somewhat slower than in the area where the blast never encountered an companion
  2. Part of the atmosphere of the companion is blown away and becomes part of the explosion
This thought, highly speculative however, leads to three predictions:
  1. The nebula has lost its radial symmetry. As seen from the earth it has a vertical mirror symmetry.
  2. The original visual angle of the companion must be roughly conserved.
  3. The shock front in the shielded area must have traveled less far than in the unshielded area. A circular pattern will have a dent
Image

I took the liberty to do some image processing on the original image. First of all i digitally removed all stars, using the green image. Then i determined the original circular pattern, if there would not have been a companion, blocking the blast pattern of the exploding star. Then i determined the mirror axis, indicated by a dashed line, with V. Finally i guessed an area, in which the filament is visible. This is indicated with the two short lines at either side of the V line. Although i used a linear structure element for the removal of stars, in order to keep the filament, the filament is partly damaged in the operation. The green colour plane is not shown here. The filament is particularly clear in the red and green colour planes. In the blue colour plane the filament is more blurred and somewhat behind the filament in the red and green colour plane.

Another interesting point is the location of the radio lobes, relative to the mirror lne, like two ears, visible in the red colour plane. Such lobes are the fingerprint of Bremstrahlung.
The difference in distance relative to the center of the nebula and the edge, for the shielded and unshielded area is particularly pronounced in the blue colour plane. (Blue is most dented).

by bystander » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:05 pm

NoelC wrote:I keep saying Betelgeuse three times, but so far, nothing.
Maybe you ought to try adding Eta Carinae.

by NoelC » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:33 pm

apodman wrote:Where do I file my request? Of course, due to the sluggish speed of light, it should have happened already (unless it's really close - unlikely) if I'm going to see it. What sense does it make to wish for a past event?
I keep saying Betelgeuse three times, but so far, nothing.

-Noel

Re: APOD 2008 July 4 - SN 1006 Supernova Remnant

by neufer » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:14 am

starnut wrote:
neufer wrote: I don't know anything about large hypothetical "relatively dense regions of interstellar material"
but two things we certainly can surmise about about an expanding Ia supernova explosion:
  • 1) It will quickly impact a large companion giant star that is blocking almost one entire hemisphere

    2) and it will first impact the much less significant mass that makes up it's own accretion disk.

What if:
  • 1) That large companion giant star is rapidly transformed into a "giant yellow smoke ring"
    (Tycho’s supernova's "giant smoke ring" appears to be blown almost directly away from us.).

    2) The thin remnant accretion disk somehow defines the blue X-ray band separating the two red radio lobes.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080704.html
If the Type 1a supernova explosion results in a complete disintegration of the white dwarf and the blast wave impacts the close companion star, possibly blowing away the companion's outer layer, wouldn't the companion's core be still intact since it would be too dense to be destroyed by the blast? If so, wouldn't the companion's core still be detectable but moving away at a high speed from the center of the system due to the slingshot effect?
Certainly not as high a speed ejection as the lighter outer layers.

There may well be nothing left but an insignificant (and hard to find) brown dwarf
(; perhaps the Spitzer IR telescope could be used to look for such things).

Re: APOD 2008 July 4 - SN 1006 Supernova Remnant

by starnut » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:57 am

neufer wrote: I don't know anything about large hypothetical "relatively dense regions of interstellar material"
but two things we certainly can surmise about about an expanding Ia supernova explosion:
  • 1) It will quickly impact a large companion giant star that is blocking almost one entire hemisphere

    2) and it will first impact the much less significant mass that makes up it's own accretion disk.

What if:
  • 1) That large companion giant star is rapidly transformed into a "giant yellow smoke ring"
    (Tycho’s supernova's "giant smoke ring" appears to be blown almost directly away from us.).

    2) The thin remnant accretion disk somehow defines the blue X-ray band separating the two red radio lobes.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080704.html
If the Type 1a supernova explosion results in a complete disintegration of the white dwarf and the blast wave impacts the close companion star, possibly blowing away the companion's outer layer, wouldn't the companion's core be still intact since it would be too dense to be destroyed by the blast? If so, wouldn't the companion's core still be detectable but moving away at a high speed from the center of the system due to the slingshot effect?

Gary

Re: APOD 2008 July 4 - SN 1006 Supernova Remnant

by neufer » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:39 pm

Qev wrote:
orin stepanek wrote:
Andy Wade wrote:http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080704.html
Can anybody identify the white/yellow line that runs along the outer edge of this 'bubble' at top right? Is it just a thickening of matter that is highlighted, or something else?
All it said was " optical data in yellowish hues". I'm not sure what that means.
I believe the ribbon of bright emission at the upper-right is where the front of the expanding supernova shell
is beginning to impact a relatively dense region of interstellar material.
http://heritage.stsci.edu/2008/22/caption.html
I don't know anything about large hypothetical "relatively dense regions of interstellar material"
but two things we certainly can surmise about about an expanding Ia supernova explosion:
  • 1) It will quickly impact a large companion giant star that is blocking almost one entire hemisphere

    2) and it will first impact the much less significant mass that makes up it's own accretion disk.

What if:
  • 1) That large companion giant star is rapidly transformed into a "giant yellow smoke ring"
    (Tycho’s supernova's "giant smoke ring" appears to be blown almost directly away from us.).

    2) The thin remnant accretion disk somehow defines the blue X-ray band separating the two red radio lobes.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080704.html

by neufer » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:53 pm

http://chandra.harvard.edu/chronicle/04 ... index.html

<<The brightest supernova observed was the supernova of 1006 AD, which was brighter than Venus and visible for several years. However, the remnant of SN 1006 has not attracted nearly as much attention as the supernova of 1054 AD, which produced the Crab Nebula. This is because SN 1006 was likely produced by a thermonuclear explosion that completely disintegrated a white dwarf star (a Type Ia explosion), leaving nothing behind except the expanding stellar debris. In contrast, the Crab Nebula was the product of the collapse of the core of a massive star. The collapse triggered a Type II supernova that ejected most of the star, but left behind a rapidly spinning neutron star. This cosmic dynamo produces a tornado of magnetic fields and high-energy particles that continue to light up the expanding debris.>>
---------------------------------------------------
SN 1006 : 10 times brighter than Venus - visible for 3 years

SN 1054 (Crab) : bright as Venus - visible for 21 months
SN 1572 (Tycho) : bright as Venus - visible for 18 months

SN 1604 (Kepler) : brighter than Jupiter - visible for 12 months
---------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_Ia_supernova
Type Ia supernova [e.g., SN 1006]

<<There are several means by which a supernova of this type can form, but they share a common underlying mechanism. If a carbon-oxygen white dwarf accreted enough matter to reach the Chandrasekhar limit of about 1.38 solar masses (for a non-rotating star), it would no longer be able to support the bulk of its plasma through electron degeneracy pressure and would begin to collapse. However, the current view is that this limit is not normally attained; increasing temperature and density inside the core ignite carbon fusion as the star approaches the limit (to within about 1%), before collapse is initiated. Within a few seconds, a substantial fraction of the matter in the white dwarf undergoes nuclear fusion, releasing enough energy (1–2 × 1044 joules) to unbind the star in a supernova explosion. An outwardly expanding shock wave is generated, with matter reaching velocities on the order of 5,000–20,000 km/s, or roughly 3% of the speed of light. There is also a significant increase in luminosity, reaching an absolute magnitude of -19.3 (or 5 billion times brighter than the Sun), with little variation.

One model for the formation of this category of supernova is a close binary star system. The larger of the two stars is the first to evolve off the main sequence, and it expands to form a red giant. The two stars now share a common envelope, causing their mutual orbit to shrink. The giant star then sheds most of its envelope, losing mass until it can no longer continue nuclear fusion. At this point it becomes a white dwarf star, composed primarily of carbon and oxygen. Eventually the secondary star also evolves off the main sequence to form a red giant. Matter from the giant is accreted by the white dwarf, causing the latter to increase in mass.

Another model for the formation of a Type Ia explosion involves the merger of two white dwarf stars, with the combined mass momentarily exceeding the Chandrasekhar limit. A white dwarf could also accrete matter from other types of companions, including a main sequence star (if the orbit is sufficiently close).

Type Ia supernovae follow a characteristic light curve—the graph of luminosity as a function of time—after the explosion. This luminosity is generated by the radioactive decay of nickel-56 through cobalt-56 to iron-56. The peak luminosity of the light curve was believed to be consistent across Type Ia supernovae (the vast majority of which are initiated with a uniform mass via the accretion mechanism), allowing them to be used as a secondary standard candle to measure the distance to their host galaxies. However, recent discoveries reveal that there is some evolution in the average lightcurve width, and thus in the intrinsic luminosity of Supernovae, although significant evolution is found only over a large redshift baseline.>>

Image

Re: APOD 2008 July 4 - SN 1006 Supernova Remnant

by bystander » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:16 pm

Andy Wade wrote:Save the cheerleader....
Can't wait for Heroes to come back. Villains 09/22
http://www.nbc.com/Heroes/nexton/

HEAPOW: Once a Star (2008 July 07)

by bystander » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:14 pm

Made the High Energy Astrophysics Picture of the Week (HEAPOW)
HEAPOW: Once a Star (2008 July 07)
Chandra: SN 1006: Liberating Star Stuff

by BMAONE23 » Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:19 pm

H ubble has a nice image of the string
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archiv ... 2/image/a/

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