Starship Asterisk*

Hello all
have a look at this link.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... Reber.html

Endless, Boundless, Stable Universe
Time is merely a sequence of events. There is no beginning nor ending. The material universe extends beyond the greatest distances we can observe optically or by radio means. It is boundless. The energy from hot material is recycled by electrodynamic (not thermodynamic) means. The material from dying galaxies is recycled into new galaxies. Details of material and energy distribution change on a small scale. Over any large volume and long time the gross features of the universe remain stable. I am not offering a finished product. I am attempting to instill thinking about the Endless, Boundless, Stable Universe.

Hello all
have a look at this link.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... Reber.html

Endless, Boundless, Stable Universe
Time is merely a sequence of events. There is no beginning nor ending. The material universe extends beyond the greatest distances we can observe optically or by radio means. It is boundless. The energy from hot material is recycled by electrodynamic (not thermodynamic) means. The material from dying galaxies is recycled into new galaxies. Details of material and energy distribution change on a small scale. Over any large volume and long time the gross features of the universe remain stable. I am not offering a finished product. I am attempting to instill thinking about the Endless, Boundless, Stable Universe.

harry wrote:Hello Qev

Hey Harry.

You are maybe right in what you state.

But! I feel you are wrong on the 3 statements.

The jet stream is not just an electron beam.
The Black Hole can suck in more than 20 solar masses per year. very samll number.
The event horizon is a point in space where the vector forces are directed into the Ultra dense matter (BH). this ultra dense matter creates its own covectional electromagnetic gravitational forces ejecting material out into deep space thousands of light years.
Qev i think you need to get more info on this subject.

Regarding the M87 jet, all the information I've read on the subject seems to indicate that it's primarily composed of high-energy electrons and a smattering of other subatomic particles (probably a significant number of positrons among other things). The jet emits energy through synchrotron radiation, as they move through the magnetic field of the black hole and the surrounding galaxy.

Measurements by astronomers of the energy output of this black hole indicate the numbers I mentioned regarding the amount of material it is consuming. It believe it could certainly consume matter at a higher rate than this, however it would show up in an increased energy output in the region. I didn't intend to imply that it was a limit on what it could do, but rather what it is doing.

The event horizon is the surface defined by the distance from a black hole where its escape velocity is exactly equal to the speed of light; it isn't a 'surface' in the conventional sense, it's not made of matter or anything at all in fact. Once anything with zero or more mass passes this threshold, it's gone for good... or at least gone until the unimaginably distant future when Hawking radiation causes the black hole to begin evaporating.

It sounds to me like you might be talking about a competing theory to black holes, usually called gravastar or dark energy star theory, which isn't something I know terribly much about. It's not a terribly widely accepted theory at this point, due to some problems explaining how some of the conditions required can come about.

http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu ... tes32.html

Harry! it tells us here that elliptical galaxies have no star formation. They are composed of old population 2 stars.

Orin

Hello Qev

You said"jet emanating from M87 is effectively a giant electron beam"

"the black hole at the center of M87 would need to be consuming matter at a rate of between one-half to twenty solar masses per year"
"Regarding ultra-dense matter being ejected... beyond Hawking radiation, no matter escapes a black hole, as we understand it. Now, by escape, I mean that nothing that passes the event horizon of the hole can return; anything outside of the event horizon has at least some possibility of escape. Conditions outside of the event horizon are probably not conducive to the formation of any sorts of degenerate material; tidal effects would most likely disrupt concentrations of mass and 'smear them out'."
You are maybe right in what you state.

But! I feel you are wrong on the 3 statements.

The jet stream is not just an electron beam.
The Black Hole can suck in more than 20 solar masses per year. very samll number.
The event horizon is a point in space where the vector forces are directed into the Ultra dense matter (BH). this ultra dense matter creates its own covectional electromagnetic gravitational forces ejecting material out into deep space thousands of light years.
Qev i think you need to get more info on this subject.

Bear in mind that the jet emanating from M87 is effectively a giant electron beam, with a few other types of subatomic particles mixed in for good measure; something like what's displaying the image on your television screen.

Theory indicates that in order to generate a beam of the power we observe, the black hole at the center of M87 would need to be consuming matter at a rate of between one-half to twenty solar masses per year. The mass of material ejected as the jet is only going to be a tiny fraction of this amount. The shockwave of the beam's passage may trigger star formation in existing clouds of gas, but there isn't going to be enough matter, nor matter of the right type, making up the beam itself to form stars.

Regarding ultra-dense matter being ejected... beyond Hawking radiation, no matter escapes a black hole, as we understand it. Now, by escape, I mean that nothing that passes the event horizon of the hole can return; anything outside of the event horizon has at least some possibility of escape. Conditions outside of the event horizon are probably not conducive to the formation of any sorts of degenerate material; tidal effects would most likely disrupt concentrations of mass and 'smear them out'.

Hello All

We should not make any quick theories as to how much material is ejected from the jet streams.

M87 jet stream is huge and the amount of material ejected needs to be studied more.

We are looking at a Jet stream bigger than our solar system. The question is this. Can these jet streams eject ultra dense matter that is held within the Black Holes and what size are these. Are they big enough to seed a star or a cluster of stars.

Some jet streams are small,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970413.html

Quasars,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960818.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960824.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap961117.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap961125.html

M87,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050316.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990216.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960305.html

The jet is composed of fast moving charged particles and has broken into knots as small as 10 light years across.

These knots are the focus of the discussions.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap950913.html

M87 is much bigger than an average galaxy, appears at the center of a whole cluster of galaxies known as the Virgo Cluster, and shows a very high number of globular clusters. These globular clusters are visible as faint spots surrounding the bright center of M87. In general, elliptical galaxies contain similar numbers of stars as spiral galaxies, but are ellipsoidal in shape (spirals are mostly flat), have no spiral structure, and little gas and dust.

Example of a globula cluster of stars
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap950726.html
A globular cluster is a system of about one million stars that together orbit a galaxy. One of the brightest globular clusters in our Milky Way galaxy is the pictured M15.

Can the jets of M87 fuel to create in someway these globular clusters of stars.

As for m87 producing stars, it has all the fuel that it needs as shown by the active jet.

In the recent times we have been given images that have changed our ideas of the universe. We all need to think and question and than think and question. I for one have realized how little I know and try to keep out of my own way.

Star formation is not limited to within the spiral arms or parts other than the central core.

Funny that you should make the "Liquid" analogy. I believe that they do act like a liquid in that if you were to take a time lapse movie of a spiral galaxy over a span of a couple hundred million years you would see the spiral unwind slightly but you would also notice what looked like a boiling effect in star clusters and globular clusters thruought the galactic plane.

harry wrote:As for star formation how do you explain M87 with its present star formation having more than twice that of our galaxy.

I'm not sure if you mean here that M87 is currently undergoing more star formation than our galaxy, or if it has more stars than our current galaxy. Assuming the latter, M87 is a big galaxy, probably formed from the mergers of many other galaxies over the history of the universe. Galaxy mergers usually trigger massive bursts of star formation, consuming a great deal of gas. At this point, M87 has probably used up most of its supply of gases, and has a truly stupendous number of stars. There must be some gassy material left, however, as the activity of the central black hole engine shows.

Star formation is not only formed from dust within the galaxy but also formed from the ejected matter from the Black Hole jet streams.

Well, stars form from the gas clouds present in galaxies. Black hole jets, to my knowlege (and I could be wrong here), don't generally eject significant amounts of material compared to they typical clouds that collapse to form stars. However, the shock wave caused by the passage of the jet through a gas cloud can most certainly trigger star formation.

If the spiral galaxy somehow feeds the central Black Hole to the extent of activating the Black Hole to produce a faster spin and release a jet stream you would basically reform the spiral galaxy into an elliptical form.

Again, I don't think the amount of material ejected by the black hole jet is significant compared to the mass of the galaxy itself. It's my understanding that elliptical galaxies form due to galactic collisions, with tidal forces disrupting the shapes of the original galaxies into the classic elliptical shape.

Say, your second link there reminds me strongly of the Cartwheel Galaxy. It's interesting, at their scale galaxies act almost like liquids.

Hi Harry! Did you consider that M87 has more stars because it used up its interstellar gas and dust in forming these stars. Less dust = more stars???
It is also larger to begin with.
Orin

Hello Qev


Thats one way of looking at it.


Correct or incorrect,,,,,,,,,,,they have their defined stage.


As for star formation how do you explain M87 with its present star formation having more than twice that of our galaxy.

Star formation is not only formed from dust within the galaxy but also formed from the ejected matter from the Black Hole jet streams.

If the spiral galaxy somehow feeds the central Black Hole to the extent of activating the Black Hole to produce a faster spin and release a jet stream you would basically reform the spiral galaxy into an elliptical form.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap950930.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951016.html


http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951001.html

http://chandra.harvard.edu/xray_sources/starburst.html

Well, generally elliptical galaxies have very low rates of star formation, have very little free gas and dust, and have older populations of stars than spiral galaxies, which does tend to imply greater overall age.

Hello Orin

How can one be older than the other?

If in the process of recycling goes, elliptical to galaxy arms to elliptical to galaxy arms and so on.

How than do you define the stages?

http://skyserver.sdss.org/edr/en/astro/ ... laxies.asp
http://skyserver.sdss.org/edr/en/astro/ ... laxies.asp
http://www.spacetelescope.org/bin/image ... lax&from=9
Elliptical galaxies
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ellipt ... axies.html

Spiral Galaxies
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/spiral_galaxies.html


Many types

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/apo ... h?Galaxies

I found this; http://www.seds.org/messier/galaxy.html This tells me that elliptical galaxies are much older than spirals as their star forming material is pretty much used up. So maybe some time the Milky Way may become an elliptical. So the farthest galaxies in the universe ought to be spirals as we would be seeing their infant years. then the black holes in spirals would be smaller than those in ellipticals as they would be a lot younger. Just my point of view.
Orin

Hello All

I'm sorry that I'm not with it lately. Ihave some projects to complete and they are taking my brains apart. I feel like a Black Holes,,smile

"The question is what makes the Black Hole become active?
I would say the arrival of too much matter to be ingested, overloads the admission line and as more is arriving daily, that causes 'something' to start flinging some of it out in the form of the highly energetic polar jets we see".

It has nothing to do with too much. Because some Black Holes are only a few million times that of our sun and are ective and others 3 billion times and they are active.
Its the internal happenings within the Black Hole to generate gravitational
electromaganetic convectional currents. These need to be addressed by a scientist in the field of ultra dense plasma. But! I assume high(+)and low(-) pressure systems creating these jet streams like a cyclone.

As for being active all Balck Holes are active and do expell matter. But what makes a super active black hole that spins with a jet stream causing chaos at random to the shape of the galaxy.

Black Holes are not doomed to be singularities. Singularities are just part of the recycling process. The question is can Black Holes die. No they cannot but they can collide and mix ith other black holes.

As for energy and matter being created and destroyed no way.

Iron producing star explodes due to the internal pressures created by the shell of iron and nickel and other elements.

The reason why the Black Holes do not explode is because matter collapses within and light and heat energy cannot escape holding in the pressure cooker. Similar to to core of a star, the core is of high density reducing the amout of energy escaping. If it was of low density the core would explode due to the lack of gravity and the built up of heat.

Black Holes can be staged from an imploding star, but not the only way.

If it was the only way than we assume that stars came first and not Black Holes. Chicken or the egg.

As for M87 having more than one Black Hole i would say yes. But images on the following link only show one supermassive Black Hole.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990216.html

The Black Hole is indifferent. It stabilty is determined by the activity around it.
M87 is in a central position surrounded by about 35 galaxies including the Milkyway.
The galaxies surrounding M87 many are spiral meaning that the Black Holes have been reduced to a size that its activity does not create random chaos to the shape of the galaxy.

Kovil,

Yes, the matters that we find on earth (Beyond Iron) were products of supernovas of some generation stars before the Sun came about. If a star is more massive than sun by 1.44 than the gravity plays bigger role on their evolution by turning them into Neutron Stars, blackholes etc.

Something has to be happening inside there that sustains blackholes or else all of them are doomed to be singularities which obviously exist in theory and hard to find evidence of.

what gives a blackhole stability?

I would say we don't know ! (is this an allowed answer? haha)

As in the situation of a star in sudden implosion collapse when gravity overcomes the nuclear fire holding it up as when iron begins to fusion and the heat suddenly diminishes quickly as the iron fusion requires more energy than is liberated in the fusion; it goes endothermic, rather than exothermic as with all the lighter elements leading up to this point.

I wonder why iron does that. This would make a good subject for further study. Something about the design of the space lattice in the nucleus? Or is it more alchemistic?

Yes, why doesn't a black hole explode like an iron producing star does?
It may be that the force of gravity at this point is strong enough that any explosive tendencies generated by the imploding material is moot in relationship to gravity.

Schwartzchild may have something to say about this, or Chandrasekhar.

Kovil,

Blackholes are made from imploding star (I know you all know but, I had to write that to start the paragraph). Theoritically, When they implode to very small size, comparable to an atom, they have created a singularity - in theory.

My question is what gives a blackhole stability. A surface that implodes so fast that the escape velocity is higher than c, unless there is some other type of force or a structure of matter that resists further implosion (I have read some explaination relating to smaller structures of matter and plasma but none too satisfactory), all blackholes are destined to become singularities.

If anyone has come across a real good stuff on this, that doesn't explain the process in "a mary-go-round way", or "you see you don't understand that" way, or if anyone has better explaination than "you don't understand that", please provide links or explain.

Multiple black holes at the center of a galaxy is most certainly possible, and I'm pretty certain they've found evidence of such. I know I've read articles about this, but the closest I can find right now is an APOD article about the Andromeda galaxy and it's peculiar double nucleus.

It's thought that this tends to occur due to galaxy mergers, with the central black holes of the interacting galaxies ending up orbiting each other.

Jets are not an unusual phenomenon among astrophysical objects; many massive, rotating objects display jet behaviour. Neutron stars, quasars and black holes, and even young, newly-formed stars will all form jets. The jets from supermassive black holes tend to be particularly powerful, since one is dealing with a massive gravity engine that is often a significant fraction of our entire solar system in size. For example, the black hole at the center of our galaxy would be roughly 17 million kilometers in diameter, and it's a 'small' one as such black holes go. The black hole at the center of M87, estimated at three billion solar masses, would be 50% larger than the orbit of Pluto.

Here is another possibility for what is happening at M87. Might it be possible for M87 to have not one supermassive central black hole but several? They could all be spinning (rotating) relative to each other like gears.

Did anyone have a Hot Wheels set with a "Super Charger" power set-up?

Could there be several black holes at the center that are not only orbiting each other around a gravitationally central point but also be spinning in such a manner as to create a "Super Charger" effect that acts to expel matter in a single direction much like the Hot Wheels car is forced around the track? Their gravitational orbit would also serve to create a vortex effect on any matter that was expelled. kind of like a "vortex jet"...

Harry,

I'll attempt to explain some of my views in answer to your questions.

Why do you think matter is ingested, and overcrowded in the admission line?

Well, black holes gobble up as much matter as they can. And if there is any resistance to the material being ingested there will be an admission line; the accretion disk. Several things make for a slow-up in the ingestion process. As Qev explains a couple of posts earlier.

Matter is neither created or destroyed.
I might give a little disagreement on this one, as energy is neither created nor destroyed, but since "matter is a special state that energy has the ability to assume", you are correct in a round-about way.

The Admission line is not where the jet stream occurs.
Correct, the admission line is the accretion disk.

The question is what makes the Black Hole become active?
I would say the arrival of too much matter to be ingested, overloads the admission line and as more is arriving daily, that causes 'something' to start flinging some of it out in the form of the highly energetic polar jets we see.

What makes the Black Hole settle down to a stable spin allowing galaxy arms to form?
OK here we go with some real speculation on my part. The black hole wants to become an entity, as matter is ert and sentient - it has the consciousness that it exists and would like to have a life. That is the settling down part.
The stable spin part is developed out of the properties of angular momentum and how gravity exerts its influence on particles that have the property of inertia bound up in them, like protons and bosons.
The galactic arms part is a more complex phenomenon. There is an APJ article I posted on APOD somewhere about the 'MHD in the ISM as DNA'.
Basically the black hole having an intense magnetic field, causes the interstellar hydrogen to coallesce along the magnetic field lines of strength; this phenomena extends quite far from the galactic center. As the hydrogen later-on, clumps to form stars; these star formation areas are what form the spiral arms, stars going nova make the heavy dust that forms the dust lanes that then make the arms so visible. This is a bit of a new idea. So it is still be researched.
It does take a while for this galactic size magnetic field to arise, as a giant black hole needs to evolve first. Which came first , the arms or the central core superdensity? It is now thought that the core causes the arms to form by magnetohydrodynamic action, rather than gravity primarily causing the arms to form; gravity is a secondary action in the arm formation after the magnetic field lines arrange it in a setup fashion.

Where do you get the rabbit hole from?
The 'down a rabbit hole' is just a cute metaphore for all matter in the universe disappearing into a black hole, or holes. And there sure seem to be a wide variety of things causing a slow down in the black hole's ability to gobble up the universe's matter. Which gives all of us living creatures more time to comtemplate all of THIS. Which might be the point to life.


That's movie stuff.
Me go to the movies ? ! If I see one more 'melting of the golden gate bridge with microwaves' , I'm going to hurl ! , haha

But seriously, Harry, I often regress into colorful type metaphores as I am not the strongest on 'all that math'. Besides how would I begin to express things like that mathematically ? It is the conceptualization of the principle's in action that lends to the understanding of what is going on best.

I agree with your idea or description of the massive black hole as being a redistributor of material from the central region in a galaxy to the further out regions in a galaxy.

Do you think the material that M87 is jetting is going to escape M87 or will it be contained by gravity and recycled into new stars, and ultimately windup at the center again only to be jetted out again?

If as Bilderbeck liked to express, a black hole really is a hole, a hollow space with an empty inside and an event horizon shell for the outside. Kind of like an M&M with no chocolate inside just the thin thin candy shell !
And that shell is where the material is not allowed by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle to be ingested.
It stacks up in the admission line, only to be rejected, like at a New York Broadway Play audition, where each particle after stating its reasons why it wants be a cast member of The Black Hole ; A Musical, is rewarded for its efforts with the loud exclamation of , NEXT !
And it is summarily ejected from the audition proceedings by the polar jet !
Exit stage North !

On the subject of black hole jets, my understanding of the process is, roughly, that as matter falls into the black hole, it forms into an orbiting, roughly-planar disk (called an accretion disk). The material closer to the event horizon orbits faster than material further out, causing a differential in velocity and massive amounts of frictional heating. This ionizes the gases, forming a rapidly spinning plasma, which creates a tremendously powerful magnetic field. It's this field that ejects some part of the disk material, heated to great temperatures, along the rotational axes of the black hole, forming the energetic jets that we observe.

I don't believe that the spiral shape of galaxies is a function of the specific rotation of the black hole at their center. It may in fact be the other way around; since the material of spiral galaxies tends to be concentrated in one plane, as this material falls into the black hole, it would tend to give its angular momentum to the black hole, aligning their spins. No?

Hello BMAONE23


You are on the wrong star track.

You need more info on the atomic structure, formation of stars, ultra dense matter and much more.

I have often thought about compacting matter as it relates to programs like "Honey I Shrunk the Kids" or even "Fantastic Voyage". The problem I see with these types of programs is that the compaction process shouldn't shed weight. you might become a 1/2 inch tall but you would still weigh 180 lbs.

If you slow down the orbiting electrons in all the atoms of a given object simultaneously one of two things would happen.

1) The atoms would loose cohesion as their electron shells shrink and the object would be disintegrated. Or
2) The atoms would shrink in size as their electron shells shrink to maintain a stable orbit, and the object would occupy less space but maintain its same weight.

Maybe the latter is what happens to matter in a black hole.

Hello Kovil

You said
"I presume the ultra dense matter is a result of the inability of the black hole to ingest material as fast as it would like, and some is slung off, out of an overcrowding in the admission line, as the forces are too great to allow it to remain there waiting, as more is arriving daily."

Why do you think matter is ingested, and overcrowded in the admission line?

Matter is neither created or destroyed.
The Admission line is not where the jet stream occurs.
The question is what makes the Black Hole become active?
What makes the Black Hole settle down to a stable spin allowing galaxy arms to form?

Where do you get the rabbit hole from?
Thats movie stuff.

Collapsing and compaction of the atomic structure is not a new thing.
The question is what parts are compacted?
Neutrons as in neutron stars
Quarks as in quarks stars
missing parts Black Hole
What happens in a Black Hole is a progressive stage from either a neutron star or a quark star.
There is no way that things go down a rabbit hole. The size of a black hole can be determined by its mass and estimated distance. see m87 links
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990216.html


As for my ideas on the Jet Stream, i give full credit to all the images and links from everybody.