by NoelC » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:49 pm
As I've mentioned elsewhere, we tend to think of galactic structure in terms we are familiar with - i.e. water circling a drain or a cyclonic weather system. What we are seeing on a galactic scale may appear similar, but it seems to me it must be at least somewhat a coincidence.
Matter clumps together because the presence of a concentration of the stuff in space-time causes time to slow and thus an acceleration is generated toward the center of mass. This effect, called gravity, by the best measurements of man so far propagates at the speed of light.
So consider this: Any bit (e.g., star, nebula, etc.) of matter flying through space in a given galaxy is influenced gravitationally by the other matter in the places in which it appears from the vantage point of that bit of matter at a given moment. According to the theory of relativity, what's happening at the same time (as viewed by a 5-dimensional being) on one edge of a galaxy can't begin to affect the "stuff" on the other edge for 100,000 years or so. The way I envision it, over a very long time the subtle variation in the forces of gravity because of the dynamics of the system, as that force propagates across the system, yields the structure we see.
In visualizing (and analyzing) the familiar spiral structures in our own frames of reference, these relativistic effects do not apply; things on our planet are just on too small a scale. However, in the case of cyclones we may be seeing the spiral structure because of the relatively slow propagation of forces and effects on a grand scale that move relatively slowly through the mediums in which they form (e.g., atmosphere), and so there could well be some analogies there well worth studying. In short, the bands of clouds on the north edge of a hurricane don't have a clue what the clouds on the south edge are doing right now, yet the things are eerily symmetrical as seen from space.
These structures form on vast, grand scales not because of something the matter within can sense throughout the entire system "in real-time", but because of the physics and properties of the medium (space-time, atmosphere, etc.) they form in, and the dynamic effects in all 4 dimensions.
It seems to me that we have this wonderful vantage point, courtesy electromagnetic waves that travel over great distances (e.g., light), to view a "snapshot" of what's happening in distant face-on galaxies "all at once", almost as a 5-dimensional being might. Truly a view of the Gods!
If we can come up with math/theories/models that describe the dynamics of what's being observed on galactic scales then we may well reach a truer understanding of the laws of physics and the universe than we have ever had.
-Noel
As I've mentioned elsewhere, we tend to think of galactic structure in terms we are familiar with - i.e. water circling a drain or a cyclonic weather system. What we are seeing on a galactic scale may appear similar, but it seems to me it must be at least somewhat a coincidence.
Matter clumps together because the presence of a concentration of the stuff in space-time causes time to slow and thus an acceleration is generated toward the center of mass. This effect, called gravity, by the best measurements of man so far propagates at the speed of light.
So consider this: Any bit (e.g., star, nebula, etc.) of matter flying through space in a given galaxy is influenced gravitationally by the other matter [i]in the places in which it appears from the vantage point of that bit of matter at a given moment[/i]. According to the theory of relativity, what's happening [i]at the same time[/i] (as viewed by a 5-dimensional being) on one edge of a galaxy can't begin to affect the "stuff" on the other edge for 100,000 years or so. The way I envision it, over a very long time the subtle variation in the forces of gravity because of the dynamics of the system, as that force propagates across the system, yields the structure we see.
In visualizing (and analyzing) the familiar spiral structures in our own frames of reference, these relativistic effects do not apply; things on our planet are just on too small a scale. However, in the case of cyclones we may be seeing the spiral structure because of the relatively slow propagation of forces and effects on a grand scale that move relatively slowly through the mediums in which they form (e.g., atmosphere), and so there could well be some analogies there well worth studying. In short, the bands of clouds on the north edge of a hurricane don't have a clue what the clouds on the south edge are doing right now, yet the things are eerily symmetrical as seen from space.
These structures form on vast, grand scales not because of something the matter within can sense throughout the entire system "in real-time", but because of the physics and properties of the medium (space-time, atmosphere, etc.) they form in, and the dynamic effects in [i]all 4 dimensions[/i].
It seems to me that we have this wonderful vantage point, courtesy electromagnetic waves that travel over great distances (e.g., light), to view a "snapshot" of what's happening in distant face-on galaxies "all at once", almost as a 5-dimensional being might. Truly a view of the Gods!
If we can come up with math/theories/models that describe the dynamics of what's being observed on galactic scales then we may well reach a truer understanding of the laws of physics and the universe than we have ever had.
-Noel