Starship Asterisk*

Thanks FieryIce. and Norval.
I came across this picture the other day and it had me thinking. I still think I am on the right track.
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/pub ... 00015p.gif
Craterchains may find this interesting too if he has not seen it already.
The marks I see on the surface may or may not be debris marks from acretion debris taken in the process described in the original posting, but the marks have a distinct orientation and a fairly acute strike angle which would line up with some debris falling back in the process. Perhaps they are not strike marks at all but they provoke thought in a similar direction.
What would be interesting would be to go down to the altitude they may have come in at and look at the strike patterns again which with the topography of the surface- may produce a more linear pattern.
Regards a thought process-- Lets say Mars did have the water and an associated atmosphere to go with it to retain the warmth and the liquid state. Lets say the atmosphere and the water were taken -- (preferably by my original process.) Now consider recent meteor encounters with Earth that come in at a shallow angle to Earth and begin to burn as they hit the atmosphere and then bounce off again. What I am saying is- the acute angle will bounce objects away again and if they dont bounce off they are slowed down to strike with a fairly vertical angle.
Lets say that with mars-- after the event- the water and most importantly the atmosphere went with it, we would see some recent crater evidence of meteor strikes with fairly acute strikes compared with older - atmosphere strikes.
To sum up-- I am trying to say (badly) a study of old water and atmosphere present strikes compared with new atmosphere and water gone strikes may show a more acute strike angle for the latter. It will take a while with my steam driven computer at 24000 bps- an hour for one picture the other day. Dial up and bad country lines!
I am still thinking about the Texas Tea.
Regards Dave R

Looking at the larger area of the Valles Marineris and Labyrinthus Noctis might help. It has been said for some time now that the Valles Marineris is a collapsed area so the ends of the collapse should show some interesting indications of partial collapse and buckling, plus the added impacts and total area awash with water, surface material and debris.

P.S. Norval is slightly under the weather this morning but he suggests looking at the European Space Agency’s color images of the Newton Crater, they are better and the color helps, plus the top ridge in those color images show leakage. No one has mentioned black gold, Texas Tea on Mars since some of the leakage has peculiar look to it.

Hi
Just had a look at FieryIce's- last post and the reference to Newton Crater.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000626.html
Great picture.
Just have a close look at rocks which protrude on the face of the feature and which way the sheltered debris tails point. There is evidence of down flow in the form of the evaporating rivulets I have talked about previously but the sheltered tails from the more catastrophic errosion would seem to go in the opposite direction
regards Dave R

Hi
Happy new year folks
I have had a look at another posting by Aqua and a further post by Craterchains and I hope you both dont mind if I post the link by Craterchains
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/200 ... index.html
This particular picture is very interesting although it may not be of much value to me re water on Mars.
There would appear to be one water feature just below and halfway along the top wide streak- one of the tapering rivulets I have talked about previously. The picture description- quote
--The rocks in this August 2005 image were once below the ground and flat-lying. Now they are tilted on edge—a product of the impact that formed Oudemans Crater. Their regular layering and light tone suggest these might be ancient sedimentary rocks.
I am not quite sure re the layers but there would seem to be so many sedimentary layers it would be unlikely- but I do know very lttle about geology.
The top wide streak is interesting. To me it looks glacial with a debris build up at the edges. What could the feature be at the western edge of the top channel which resembles a foot with the toes pointing down- dit it cause the feature by being dragged along or am I reading the picture incorrectly.
Could the features be dry errosion or gravity induced as the picture does include weeping leakage evidence too.
regards Dave R

Let's not forget the weeping, leakage and dried ponds on Mars.


"Weeping" Layer in Gorgonum Chaos
Newton Crater: Evidence for Recent Water on Mars
Martian Crater Shows Evidence of Dried Pond

Happy New years to one and all.

Norval

Hello Empeda2

Thank you for your link on mars

I read,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,smile



Merry Xmas

Another interesting element to throw into the discussion:

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0512/21marswater/

Hi Harry
Does anyone drink that stuff
I had a look at a couple of interesting sites last night about Saturns moons- I knew of Promethius and its thieving qualities but did not know about Ensiladus and its atmosphere-lean. I am not sure of the orientation of its "Tail" but I presume there is a gravity induced direction of its atmophere and plume. I would imagine it would be a combination of the Sun Saturn and also Saturns ring debris.
It is to me interesting- the evidence and effect of gravity interaction between bodies. I presume comets could be included in that. I am relating the observations to Mars and its water and of course its atmosphere which has virtualy gone and to me-- in an an initial asymetric
lean of its atmosphere starting with the approach of the gravity source.
The crater pits of my last post are interesting- they are in the south of a crater complete with rubble debris and they have puzzled the "scientists"-- This all to me still leans to that northern direction waterflow-- just another clue.
regards Dave R

Hello Rev

You must like water.

Water water everywhere but not a drop to drink.

Smile

Hi
Nice pictures. Nice to know Craterchains and Fieryice are on a similar frequency.
Thanks for the polar picture posting Harry. The polar ice almost seems to have a circumpolar flow mmmmmmmm.
This is an interesting link to Noachin pit craters and a boulder deposit in one of the pits Top right hand picture Note pits are in the south of the crater lining up with water-debri flow going north
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/01_ ... oachispit/
These are in the high flow southern areas about 47 south. I have said in the past that the flow was roughly north and this area would have been in a high flow area with high speed boulder laden water tumbling over the crater edge-- waterfalling over and shaping the pits. I would imagine much of the heavier boulder material would have been deposited in this manner. I just wander if there are other pits like these in the area or other southern latitude craters which have these pits in the south part of the crater perhaps with similar debris at the bottom.
Thanks to Malin space science systems for the links and pictures.
We are in a super frustrating area- I think I will have a beer!
regards Dave R

I do not remember if you have seen this link

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020219.html

Water on the caps

From the images I have looked at (many hundreds, if not thousands by now) clearly show water and debris movement up hills and mountains for a couple kilometers at least. FieryIce and I have been exploring that idea for about three years now. But because of secret agendas and closed door discussions about the same things we want to discuss, all we get are their politically correct interpretations of the images. I want the meat and
potatoes with clear clean water. What do we get instead; baby food, muddy water, and sanitized images and data.

Enough is enough.
Norval

A "dust storm struck China’s Taklimakan Desert in early December 2005" compare to what is called dust storm on Mars.


Dust Storm in the Taklimakan Desert

Well, abrasive action of coarse sand particles was not exactly what I had in mind but it seems to be the idea of some theorist.

Hi Norval and FieryIce
your posts are interesting. Do I understand you suggesting there may be a abrasive action of coarse sand particles that has and is making the observed damage and that it may be a presently ongoing process.- I suppose it could account for upward flow in some cases mmmm
I still like mine because of the flow intensity difference between North and South.-- weeping south facing cliffs -eccentric orbit etc Have you noticed a weather flow orientation which may line up with some of the damage concerned because I believe the dust storms are generated by Mars position on its eliptical path re proximity of the sun
I must find a picture I came across which has a distinctive flow patern generated by what would appear to be an upward flow of water-- or abrasion--- distinctive in that it shows a stratified section of a cliff with at each layer of boulder-rock protrusion in the rock-- a sheltered tail going uphill and the same with each susequent layer going uphill-- this pattern is repeated in several places. Could also be--abrasion from another source.
regards Dave R

maybe there is some larger partivles in it, like sand.

Norval

VIKING ORBITER VIEWS OF MARS

And that is all just dust?
*******

Here are some of the old photos of Mars.

http://www.solarviews.com//history/SP-441/ch12.htm

Wouldn't you love to have these raw data files to send through modern computer enhancements?

Norval

Hi

BMAONE23 wrote:My best guess would be to look to the Hellas impact basin as the cause for the planet wide vaporization of any water that was there. The lower gravity on Mars would then add to the effect of Loss to space.

Yes the impact which created the Hellas crater is most impressive and you may be correct. Perhaps we should also look for clues to water flows and direction re the crater and the larger picture of the weeping south facing cliffs in the southern hemisphere and the resurfaced northern hemisphere with dead end waterflows- do they orientate in any way to the crater. I have listed a few other clues in previous posts but to me- flows head north and they are in at least two directions ie major flow north and the water which did not quite make it out- re finding its level.
regards Dave R

Hi
The link was interesting re water found Dan. I suppose it still lines up with being the remainder of the water after most had been taken.
Consider the process of the water being removed from the spike and ending up as an elongated shape which at some point would break and leave elongated sections freezing from the outside. Water seems to cling together in a no gravity situation.
Some of these pieces in the process I have described earlier may have returned-- fallen back to Mars and others may have just continued out in a sun orbit and some heading out to the gravity source.-- What sort of impact damage--and pattern-- would a Bar-rod-stick of frozen water make impacting Mars. I am still open to deliberate craterchains. At present- this is the only natural process I can visualise.
I will find time to take a look at Norval's surface changes today.
regards Dave R

No real need to go into a whole lot of speculation off world , Mars in this case, just how did those massive floods happen?

Most of the known facts point to a gravitational force having to be present to move the waters around and cause the flooding marks like we see. Water wouldn't have to actually leave the planet.

What would the surface pressure have to be for water to remain liquid?

Makc, as I said, one can learn a great deal from looking at older pictures and comparing them to more recent ones.

Norval

Hi
A bit of a flurry of answers there- thanks for the replies and thanks for the photos Norval I will have a study of these.
Could I just take a line from Dan
>This does explain where all the water came from, quite conveniently. It >also does explain, why no water on Mars now. We only haven't figured, >where did it all have gone to,
I may be pushing the limits a little here but please consider the pcture where Mars water has been dragged to the northern hemisphere and has built up to a large dome and further- to an inverted cone with a spike- rather like a waterspout at sea. Perhaps this whole thing was even twisting-- rotating like a waterspout. The spike tip would have to be the part which was acreted out towards the gravity source.
The acretion would be narrow- and flowing and would be moving out into an escape angle from mars. Consider the picture as this rod- spike- string of water and churned ground debris, plus atmosphere rose and headed for the moving gravity source. Its initial direction was heading directly where the source was but by the time it came to the source-- the gravity had moved on- hence an acretion curved flow- perhaps even a disk around the source.
Now-- If I were to push the limits even further and describe the disk-- I would say it would look like the rings around Saturn- complete with layered debris with an interesting colour mix - evidence of water and most of all- the straw like rods of what to me look like rods of frozen water- perhaps like the water which was removed from the spike and froze in space. I am not saying Saturn robbed the water but an interesting phenomina- If the straw shapes are water ice I would love to see what they contained microscopicaly and if the other debris matched the surface of Saturn --or something else.
Dont forget-- much of the water would have remained in the process and this bulge of water would have reset- perhaps shaping some of the box canyon features of the northern hemisphere. The huge churning flows of water-- now with a large loss of atmosphere would be still in a liquid form- due to a retained but falling ground temperature the water now evaporating at high speed with some resetting to underground perhaps and remaining as a permafrost and ice . I cannot quite understand though- if this did happen this way- Mars atmosphere is so dry-- could that have been the ballance of the process-- taking the ballance of moisture off the planet by other means.
regards Dave R

craterchains wrote:This photo may help yah a bit Rev.

well, this photo shows us some features "burried in debris", as you said. Doesn't it?