APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:32 pm

mason dixon wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:10 pm Are the red and blue stars in this gc visible in a backyard telescope? Or are they all white?
Most inexperienced observers see nearly all stars as white, both telescopically and with the naked eye, outside of some extreme cases. But the color is present, and visible to anybody who takes some time and concentrates on what they're seeing. But these colors are highly unsaturated. Nobody will see visually what this artificially saturated image is showing!

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by mason dixon » Fri Dec 20, 2024 1:10 pm

Are the red and blue stars in this gc visible in a backyard telescope? Or are they all white?

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by Ann » Fri Dec 20, 2024 5:09 am

AVAO wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 10:00 pm
Ann wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 9:19 am
[...]
But finally, here's my point. We sure see a lot of blue stars in this globular cluster! Then again, if you ask me, this image has probably been processed in such a way as to really bring out the blue - and even the very moderately blue - stars of the cluster. Take a look at this star:
This star is too bright for a blue star to be a member of Messier 2. If you look again at the Color-Magnitude diagram of globular cluster M55, you can see that the blue stars of globular clusters can never be brighter, or even as bright, as the brightest red stars. Therefore this star, which looks brighter than any other star in the cluster, is almost certainly a foreground star (or just possibly a background star, but that is much less likely).

I think I may have identified the star. It might be TYC 5208-284-1, an F-type star which is just a little bit bluer than the Sun. Funnily enough, the distance to this star is ~700 light-years, versus 55,000 light-years for the globular cluster itself! :shock: Talk about a foreground object!

But as I said, in the APOD this star looks intensely blue, even though it is just a little bit bluer than the Sun (if I have managed to identify it correctly). This means we should be careful when we judge the number of blue stars in this globular.

Ann

ThanX Ann

Unfortunately, I have to disappoint you. In the image shown, a UV image (WFC3 275 nm) was used for the blue in the RGB image. Green (336 nm) and red (438 nm) come from the optical wavelengths. (The logic is correct, but "true color" would be different ,-). As Johnny has already noted, we only see the central area in the APOD image from Hubble. TYC 5208-284-1 (red cross) is a little further out.

So your star is still available, as it is not indexed anywhere yet. I would say we should just call it "Ann's blue star". :ssmile:

AllWISE (UV) in Green:

Thanks for the info, Jac!

If the "blue" channel used for the portrait of M2 was really an ultraviolet filter as shortwave as 275 nm, then I'd say that this very "blue" (really very ultraviolet) star could indeed be a member of M2. It could be an "extreme horizontal branch star":

APOD 23 February 2001 annotated.png

Note the "extreme horizontal branch stars" sort of hanging down at far left from the horizontal branch. The stars on the extreme horizontal branch are very small, very hot and very ultraviolet. The abnormally bright blue star in the APOD could therefore be such a star, as it would trigger a very strong response from the 275 nm filter that was used for this Hubble image.

Also note that the blue straggler stars are typically fainter than the horizontal branch stars. They may not be as blue, either.

Note that there are two branches of evolved red stars. The first one, the red giant branch stars, are stars that have used up their core hydrogen and expanded to become red giants. The second branch is the asymptotic branch, whose stars have passed through the horizontal branch and used up their core helium. Now they are expanding and cooling again, and the very reddest stars of globular clusters are often asymptotic branch stars. After the asymptotic branch, death and white dwarfhood awaits the former swollen red stars!

Ann

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Dec 20, 2024 4:45 am

Avalon wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 3:06 am In order to maintain "balance" gravitationally in the cluster, especially within the 40 light year sphere, are these stars all orbiting the center of the cluster? Are they all going the same direction or randomly orbiting haphazarly?
The stars in a globular cluster move in highly perturbed Keplerian orbits around the cluster's center of gravity. Their inclinations are random.

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by Avalon » Fri Dec 20, 2024 3:06 am

In order to maintain "balance" gravitationally in the cluster, especially within the 40 light year sphere, are these stars all orbiting the center of the cluster? Are they all going the same direction or randomly orbiting haphazarly?

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by AVAO » Thu Dec 19, 2024 10:33 pm

Ann wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 9:19 am
[...]

Okay! This is what will happen to stars like the Sun. But the stars in globular cluster M2 are not like the Sun, because their chemical composition is so different. They contain so few elements more massive than hydrogen and helium, compared with the Sun. This gives them a different evolutionary track than stars like the Sun, and it allows them to go through a stage where they become blue:
Note the blue stars at upper left. These are the equivalent of "red clump stars" of so called "metal-poor" stars, stars that contain few elements more massive than hydrogen and helium, compared with the Sun. In other words, these blue stars have used up their core hydrogen and are now fusing helium to carbon and oxygen in their cores. Metal-poor stars shrink so much at this stage and become so much hotter than before that they become blue.


Ann

...the CMD of M2 (NGC 7089) looks very similar to M55 ...
https://people.smp.uq.edu.au/HolgerBaum ... c7089.html

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by AVAO » Thu Dec 19, 2024 10:00 pm

Ann wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 9:19 am
[...]
But finally, here's my point. We sure see a lot of blue stars in this globular cluster! Then again, if you ask me, this image has probably been processed in such a way as to really bring out the blue - and even the very moderately blue - stars of the cluster. Take a look at this star:
This star is too bright for a blue star to be a member of Messier 2. If you look again at the Color-Magnitude diagram of globular cluster M55, you can see that the blue stars of globular clusters can never be brighter, or even as bright, as the brightest red stars. Therefore this star, which looks brighter than any other star in the cluster, is almost certainly a foreground star (or just possibly a background star, but that is much less likely).

I think I may have identified the star. It might be TYC 5208-284-1, an F-type star which is just a little bit bluer than the Sun. Funnily enough, the distance to this star is ~700 light-years, versus 55,000 light-years for the globular cluster itself! :shock: Talk about a foreground object!

But as I said, in the APOD this star looks intensely blue, even though it is just a little bit bluer than the Sun (if I have managed to identify it correctly). This means we should be careful when we judge the number of blue stars in this globular.

Ann

ThanX Ann

Unfortunately, I have to disappoint you. In the image shown, a UV image (WFC3 275 nm) was used for the blue in the RGB image. Green (336 nm) and red (438 nm) come from the optical wavelengths. (The logic is correct, but "true color" would be different ,-). As Johnny has already noted, we only see the central area in the APOD image from Hubble. TYC 5208-284-1 (red cross) is a little further out.

So your star is still available, as it is not indexed anywhere yet. I would say we should just call it "Ann's blue star". :ssmile:

AllWISE (UV) in Green:
Attachments
TYC 5208-284-1.jpg

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by Ann » Thu Dec 19, 2024 9:06 pm

Christian G. wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 8:17 pm
Thanks for your answer! (and all you've written above). That last image indeed shows a large gathering of blue stars near the center.
Glad you appreciate it! :D

Did you see the one blue star in the old open star cluster, M67?


This blue star is officially described as a blue straggler star, at least in Simbad's Astronomical Database!

Its spectral class is B8V, so it is really a blue star.

Ann

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by Christian G. » Thu Dec 19, 2024 8:17 pm

Ann wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 7:49 pm
Christian G. wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 6:37 pm About globular cluster blue stars (not those born blue which are long gone if there were any, but those who turned blue in a late phase), do they tend to be more massive than those who remained cool? If so, I’ve read that globular clusters "evaporate", i.e. when lighter and heavier stars orbit, the lighter ones may get flung out while the heavier ones are slowed down and sink, which could mean that there are more blue stars towards the center. From the image it almost seems so. But not clearly. (and if they're not blue by virtue of a higher mass, my conclusion too evaporates)
My guess is that all the stars of a globular cluster have a mass of one solar mass or less. The only exception would be blue straggler stars, which are believed to be stars that have gained mass from another star. But even those stars are not terrifically massive.
Wikipedia wrote:

A blue straggler is a type of star that is more luminous and bluer than expected. Typically identified in a stellar cluster, they have a higher effective temperature than the main sequence turnoff point for the cluster, where ordinary stars begin to evolve towards the red giant branch.
The most likely explanation is that blue stragglers are the result of stars that come too close to another star or similar mass object and collide. The newly formed star has thus a higher mass, and occupies a position on the HR diagram which would be populated by genuinely young stars.


The blue horizontal branch stars that we see in globular clusters (and which are typically much brighter than the blue straggler stars) are low-mass stars of less than a solar mass. They are basically the same type of stars as RR Lyrae stars, although they blue horizontal branch stars are bluer in color than the RR Lyrae stars, and also smaller and hotter.
Wikipedia wrote about RR Lyrae stars:

They are pulsating horizontal branch stars of spectral class A or F, with a mass of around half the Sun's. They are thought to have shed mass during the red-giant branch phase, and were once stars at around 0.8 solar masses.
So if these stars are half the mass of the Sun, and started out with 0.8 solar masses, they were never blue until they evolved into blue horizontal branch stars.

Ann
Thanks for your answer! (and all you've written above). That last image indeed shows a large gathering of blue stars near the center.

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by Ann » Thu Dec 19, 2024 7:49 pm

Christian G. wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 6:37 pm About globular cluster blue stars (not those born blue which are long gone if there were any, but those who turned blue in a late phase), do they tend to be more massive than those who remained cool? If so, I’ve read that globular clusters "evaporate", i.e. when lighter and heavier stars orbit, the lighter ones may get flung out while the heavier ones are slowed down and sink, which could mean that there are more blue stars towards the center. From the image it almost seems so. But not clearly. (and if they're not blue by virtue of a higher mass, my conclusion too evaporates)
My guess is that all the stars of a globular cluster have a mass of one solar mass or less. The only exception would be blue straggler stars, which are believed to be stars that have gained mass from another star. But even those stars are not terrifically massive.
Wikipedia wrote:

A blue straggler is a type of star that is more luminous and bluer than expected. Typically identified in a stellar cluster, they have a higher effective temperature than the main sequence turnoff point for the cluster, where ordinary stars begin to evolve towards the red giant branch.
The most likely explanation is that blue stragglers are the result of stars that come too close to another star or similar mass object and collide. The newly formed star has thus a higher mass, and occupies a position on the HR diagram which would be populated by genuinely young stars.


The blue horizontal branch stars that we see in globular clusters (and which are typically much brighter than the blue straggler stars) are low-mass stars of less than a solar mass. They are basically the same type of stars as RR Lyrae stars, although they blue horizontal branch stars are bluer in color than the RR Lyrae stars, and also smaller and hotter.
Wikipedia wrote about RR Lyrae stars:

They are pulsating horizontal branch stars of spectral class A or F, with a mass of around half the Sun's. They are thought to have shed mass during the red-giant branch phase, and were once stars at around 0.8 solar masses.
So if these stars are half the mass of the Sun, and started out with 0.8 solar masses, they were never blue until they evolved into blue horizontal branch stars.


Take a look at these two images of globular cluster NGC 6397. One picture shows an overview of the cluster center, and the other picture is annotated and shows, among other types of stars, blue stragglers.


Ann

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by johnnydeep » Thu Dec 19, 2024 7:30 pm

So, this GC is very old, meaning it has existed for a long time (obviously). Can there be stable planetary systems around stars in it, or is that possibility made unlikely because of gravitational "jostling" by close stellar approaches? (Please forgive me, as I might have asked this same question before!)

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by Christian G. » Thu Dec 19, 2024 6:37 pm

About globular cluster blue stars (not those born blue which are long gone if there were any, but those who turned blue in a late phase), do they tend to be more massive than those who remained cool? If so, I’ve read that globular clusters "evaporate", i.e. when lighter and heavier stars orbit, the lighter ones may get flung out while the heavier ones are slowed down and sink, which could mean that there are more blue stars towards the center. From the image it almost seems so. But not clearly. (and if they're not blue by virtue of a higher mass, my conclusion too evaporates)

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by Ann » Thu Dec 19, 2024 5:48 pm

Someone asked, in rather rude terms, how we know the age of globular clusters. I'm anything but an expert in that field, but a few things can be said:

For globular clusters, RR Lyrae variable stars are often used to measure the distances to these clusters:
Wikipedia wrote:

RR Lyrae variables are periodic variable stars, commonly found in globular clusters. They are used as standard candles to measure (extra) galactic distances, assisting with the cosmic distance ladder. This class is named after the prototype and brightest example, RR Lyrae.
In contemporary astronomy, a period-luminosity relation makes them good standard candles for relatively nearby targets, especially within the Milky Way and Local Group.

RR Lyrae variables pulsate in a certain way and have known luminosities. When they are found in globular clusters, their pulsations and apparent brightness show astronomers how far away the cluster is.

Stellar isochrones are used to estimate the ages of clusters. The brighter stars the cluster contains, the more massive are the stars, and the younger is the cluster.


Let's look at some of the clusters that are shown in the illustration above. The most massive one in the illustration is actually two clusters, the Double Cluster of Perseus, h and chi Per or NGC 869 and NGC 884.


I picked an obvious member star of one of the clusters, HD 14143, and checked its Gaia parallax, which put the star at a distance of ~8,000 light-years. Coupled with this star's apparent V magnitude of 6.7 (and disregarding a considerable amount of dust reddening, which makes stars look fainter), this star's absolute V magnitude is about 10,000 solar luminosities. To be that bright, the star must indeed be massive. According to Wikipedia, both NGC 869 and NGC 884 are about 14 million years old.

I have not found any really reliable estimates of the mass of the the brightest stars of the Double Cluster. According to Focus Nordic, the masses of the brightest stars in the Double Cluster are 10-100 solar masses. Personally I doubt that stars of a hundred solar masses can live for 14 million years, which is to say that I don't believe that the brightest stars of the Double Cluster are that massive.

Let's look at the Pleiades:


The distance to the Pleiades is still somewhat controversial, but a good estimate is about 430 light-years. The brightest star is Alcyone, whose apparent V magnitude of 2.87 corresponds, at a distance of about 430 light-years, to about a thousand solar luminosities. Alcyone is much less bright than the blue giant in NGC 869, but it is still bright. According to Wikipedia, the mass of Alcyone is about 6 solar masses, and its age is about 70 million years. Note that the Pleiades Cluster as a whole is believed to be older, 75 to 150 million years old.

Let's look at the oldest cluster that was mentioned in the illustration that I posted, M67:


The brightest red star at lower right is a foreground star and not a member, so I checked one of the brightest red giants that belongs to M67, TYC 814-2331-1. Its Gaia parallax puts it a distance of some 2,800 light-years, and coupled with its apparent V luminosity of 9.6, this corresponds to a true V luminosity of about a hundred solar luminosities. The age of cluster M67 that TYC 814-2331-1 belongs to is estimated to be between 3.2 and 5 billion years, according to Wikipedia.

My point is that rich massive clusters always produce big bright massive stars. But the more massive a star is, the sooner does it die. The turnoff point of a color-magnitude diagram for a particular cluster shows the age of the most massive stars that belong to the cluster and still fuse hydrogen to helium in their cores.

Ann

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by Christian G. » Thu Dec 19, 2024 1:09 pm

Open clusters are beauties, globular clusters are spectacular beauties! Crazy number of stars, crazy age, mysterious formation process, and in the case of M2, supposedly from another galaxy! (Gaia-Enceladus)

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by johnnydeep » Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:29 pm

I'll note that to the uninformed eye - like mine - this image sure looks like it includes pretty much the entire cluster, when in reality what we see here is merely the inner 40 lightyears of a much larger 175 lightyear sphere of stars (that is, a ball over 4 times larger than this photo shows!)

Hmm, so is the so-called "tidal radius" used to define the diameter of a cluster? (The tidal radius is the distance from the cluster center to the point at which the gravity of the cluster balances the gravity of the galaxy it orbits.)

Re: APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by Ann » Thu Dec 19, 2024 9:19 am

Yes, that's a beautiful APOD! :D (And big - too big for me to post directly as a picture, so I have to post it as an attachment... :( )

potw1913aM2_1024[1].jpg
Messier 2
Image Credit: ESA/Hubble & NASA, G. Piotto et al.


For me as a blue-loving self-appointed Color Commentator, the sheer number of blue stars in this cluster stands out. So let's take a quick look at what kind of stars we are likely to be seeing in globular clusters, and how the stars of these ancient clusters came to be what they are. But first, let's take a look at the normal evolutionary track of a star of the age, mass and chemical composition of the Sun:


Let's look at what we are seeing in this illustration. At bottom, we see a yellow star on the so-called Main sequence (when stars fuse hydrogen to helium in theri cores). That would be the Sun in its current state. But as the Sun begins to use up its core hydrogen, it will first evolve into the subgiant branch and become a subgiant star. Then, as its core hydrogen supply is really gone, the Sun will become a red giant. It will expand fast and become gigantic in size and very orange in color.

However, as the Sun reaches the top of the Red Giant Branch, its core will have shrunk so much and thus become so much hotter than before that the Sun can suddenly start fusing all the helium that has built up in its core, after it has converted all its core hydrogen to helium. As the Sun starts fusing helium, it will shrink considerably in size and also become "a bit less red", that is, a bit hotter. This stage is called the Red Clump, because so many evolved cool stars are helium-fusing stars at this evolutionary stage. That's because stars of this mass spend a relatively long time fusing helium in their cores, although not nearly as long as they first spent fusing hydrogen.

After the star has fused all its helium into carbon and oxygen, it once again begins to swell and become huge, red and "unsteady", displaying a marked variability. Stars of this mass are unable to fuse carbon and oxygen into heavier element, so this is the end of the road for the one-solar-mass star. It will star shedding its outer layers, baring more and more of its hot core, creating a planetary nebula and turning into a white dwarf. At first the white dwarf is quite bright, but it will soon start fading.

Okay! This is what will happen to stars like the Sun. But the stars in globular cluster M2 are not like the Sun, because their chemical composition is so different. They contain so few elements more massive than hydrogen and helium, compared with the Sun. This gives them a different evolutionary track than stars like the Sun, and it allows them to go through a stage where they become blue:


Note the blue stars at upper left. These are the equivalent of "red clump stars" of so called "metal-poor" stars, stars that contain few elements more massive than hydrogen and helium, compared with the Sun. In other words, these blue stars have used up their core hydrogen and are now fusing helium to carbon and oxygen in their cores. Metal-poor stars shrink so much at this stage and become so much hotter than before that they become blue.

And after these blue metal-poor stars have used up their core helium they too, like the Sun, will evolve into huge red giants (or rather, Asymtotic Giant Branch stars, never mind), and soon they too will have reached the end of the road and die.

But finally, here's my point. We sure see a lot of blue stars in this globular cluster! Then again, if you ask me, this image has probably been processed in such a way as to really bring out the blue - and even the very moderately blue - stars of the cluster. Take a look at this star:

APOD 19 December annotated detail.png

This star is too bright for a blue star to be a member of Messier 2. If you look again at the Color-Magnitude diagram of globular cluster M55, you can see that the blue stars of globular clusters can never be brighter, or even as bright, as the brightest red stars. Therefore this star, which looks brighter than any other star in the cluster, is almost certainly a foreground star (or just possibly a background star, but that is much less likely).

I think I may have identified the star. It might be TYC 5208-284-1, an F-type star which is just a little bit bluer than the Sun. Funnily enough, the distance to this star is ~700 light-years, versus 55,000 light-years for the globular cluster itself! :shock: Talk about a foreground object!

But as I said, in the APOD this star looks intensely blue, even though it is just a little bit bluer than the Sun (if I have managed to identify it correctly). This means we should be careful when we judge the number of blue stars in this globular.

Ann

APOD: Messier 2 (2024 Dec 19)

by APOD Robot » Thu Dec 19, 2024 5:07 am

Image Messier 2

Explanation: After the Crab Nebula, this giant star cluster is the second entry in 18th century astronomer Charles Messier's famous list of things that are not comets. M2 is one of the largest globular star clusters now known to roam the halo of our Milky Way galaxy. Though Messier originally described it as a nebula without stars, this stunning Hubble image resolves stars across the cluster's central 40 light-years. Its population of stars numbers close to 150,000, concentrated within a total diameter of around 175 light-years. About 55,000 light-years distant toward the constellation Aquarius, this ancient denizen of the Milky Way, also known as NGC 7089, is 13 billion years old. An extended stellar debris stream, a signature of past gravitational tidal disruption, was recently found to be associated with Messier 2.

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