Starship Asterisk*

alter-ego wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:29 am

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 1:26 pm

miop wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:39 am Yes, push pins sounds good. And the Kapton tape holds the pins in place until the lid is attached to the venting hole. The white disc under the tape could be made of e.g. Teflon or ceramic. In case of Teflon the Tape will not stick very well, unless the surface would have been activated, with plasma or corona discharge. I'm thinking that the "sticker" is a prepared construction that is put on the hole in one piece, too.

The tape holds the pins in place? Isn't it the other way around?

No, not necessarily. There now seems to be some method behind the "emblem" madness.
After yesterday's posts suggesting Kapton and push-pins, I reviewed my (previously posted) video for additional images that show new views, including which hole(1 of 2) are covered by the small lids, and found good prototype pictures in a video(July 2023) and another image here (selected images below).

• I think that applying lengths of overlapping Kapton tape diametrically is most efficient on a circular disk as well a robust way to secure push-pins.
• The backshell material (SLA-561V) is soft and can be removed by scraping with a plastic scraper so push-pins would work. The material has a Shore A hardness rating of ~30 which is about as soft as cork plugs.
• As I said earlier, the large lid (and presumably small ones) is made of Teflon. It is flexible which also permits the two small lids to accommodate the backshell curvature. Ceramic would be much more difficult to implement on the curved backshell side.
• On the large lid, the tape wrapped around the edges about 1 in, so the pins, being only ~1/2" from the edge, would pierce the tape ends. You can see how the disks can be preassembled such that the heads are under the tape, and the pins penetrate the tape wrapped ends thus providing a self-securing method for hold both pins and tape (especially when the lids are attached to the backshell). If the tape ends fill the perimeter edge of the lid, then every pin passes though Kapton.
   
  Prototype & Real Capsules.jpgNote: Re-entry charred the entire capsule black, and the resulting soot could easily come off as demonstrated when handled at the cleanroom facility. I believe the push-pins are necessary to secure the lid because tape only would not reliably stick to the powdery surface.

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 1:26 pm

miop wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:39 am Yes, push pins sounds good. And the Kapton tape holds the pins in place until the lid is attached to the venting hole. The white disc under the tape could be made of e.g. Teflon or ceramic. In case of Teflon the Tape will not stick very well, unless the surface would have been activated, with plasma or corona discharge. I'm thinking that the "sticker" is a prepared construction that is put on the hole in one piece, too.

The tape holds the pins in place? Isn't it the other way around?

• I think that applying lengths of overlapping Kapton tape diametrically is most efficient on a circular disk as well a robust way to secure push-pins.
• The backshell material (SLA-561V) is soft and can be removed by scraping with a plastic scraper so push-pins would work. The material has a Shore A hardness rating of ~30 which is about as soft as cork plugs.
• As I said earlier, the large lid (and presumably small ones) is made of Teflon. It is flexible which also permits the two small lids to accommodate the backshell curvature. Ceramic would be much more difficult to implement on the curved backshell side.
• On the large lid, the tape wrapped around the edges about 1 in, so the pins, being only ~1/2" from the edge, would pierce the tape ends. You can see how the disks can be preassembled such that the heads are under the tape, and the pins penetrate the tape wrapped ends thus providing a self-securing method for hold both pins and tape (especially when the lids are attached to the backshell). If the tape ends fill the perimeter edge of the lid, then every pin passes though Kapton.
   

  

  Note: Re-entry charred the entire capsule black, and the resulting soot could easily come off as demonstrated when handled at the cleanroom facility. I believe the push-pins are necessary to secure the lid because tape only would not reliably stick to the powdery surface.

miop wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:39 am Yes, push pins sounds good. And the Kapton tape holds the pins in place until the lid is attached to the venting hole. The white disc under the tape could be made of e.g. Teflon or ceramic. In case of Teflon the Tape will not stick very well, unless the surface would have been activated, with plasma or corona discharge. I'm thinking that the "sticker" is a prepared construction that is put on the hole in one piece, too.

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:28 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:12 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:57 pm
No idea. There may be some functional aspect that involves multiple layers, or this may simply be an aesthetic choice. The only point that seems likely to me is that these are seals intended to cover holes that were necessary during descent but represent possible contamination hazards once the capsule is on the ground.

Also, what explains the nine bolt-like circles around the periphery? I suppose those are real fasteners of some sort underneath the "sticker"?

Unclear what they are. I don't know about underlying fasteners. None are apparent in the diagrams of the capsule (unlike the vent holes, which are quite obvious). The capsule material where the seal is attached is made out of a kind of modified cork. Maybe they are push pins!

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:12 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:57 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:54 pm

So, a ready-made "sticker", but one still made up of 4 layers of Kapton? But if not, what else would explain the overlapping layers look and the eight-pointed star design even if created ahead of time?

No idea. There may be some functional aspect that involves multiple layers, or this may simply be an aesthetic choice. The only point that seems likely to me is that these are seals intended to cover holes that were necessary during descent but represent possible contamination hazards once the capsule is on the ground.

Also, what explains the nine bolt-like circles around the periphery? I suppose those are real fasteners of some sort underneath the "sticker"?

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:57 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:54 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:38 pm

The capsule has several venting holes in it which allowed outside air to enter the interior during descent. Presumably these were quickly covered with seals, which is what we see. The color certainly suggests Kapton, but it's unlikely that it was applied as anything other than a ready-to-go sticker of some sort, not manually applied layers.

So, a ready-made "sticker", but one still made up of 4 layers of Kapton? But if not, what else would explain the overlapping layers look and the eight-pointed star design even if created ahead of time?

No idea. There may be some functional aspect that involves multiple layers, or this may simply be an aesthetic choice. The only point that seems likely to me is that these are seals intended to cover holes that were necessary during descent but represent possible contamination hazards once the capsule is on the ground.

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:54 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:38 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:12 pm

Interesting conjecture. I didn't know what Kapton tape was:



But since the four overlapping layers that you noticed - and which serve to create the eight-pointed star effect - are so perfectly oriented, I doubt they were applied on site, which makes me somewhat doubt your theory.

The capsule has several venting holes in it which allowed outside air to enter the interior during descent. Presumably these were quickly covered with seals, which is what we see. The color certainly suggests Kapton, but it's unlikely that it was applied as anything other than a ready-to-go sticker of some sort, not manually applied layers.

So, a ready-made "sticker", but one still made up of 4 layers of Kapton? But if not, what else would explain the overlapping layers look and the eight-pointed star design even if created ahead of time?

Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:38 pm

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:12 pm

miop wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:30 am The color of the "emblem" gives a clear hint towards Kapton tape. There are several layers of the transparent amber film on each of the discs overlapping, resulting in the sun-like emblem. Additionally, you can see some of the tape wrapped around the mounts/sticks on top of the capsule, presumably the parachute fixation. In my experience, this Kapton tape is used by space guys for every purpose like duct tape.

Interesting conjecture. I didn't know what Kapton tape was:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton wrote:Kapton is a polyimide film used in flexible printed circuits (flexible electronics) and space blankets, which are used on spacecraft, satellites, and various space instruments. Invented by the DuPont Corporation in the 1960s, Kapton remains stable (in isolation) across a wide range of temperatures, from 4 to 673 K (−269 to +400 °C). Kapton is used in electronics manufacturing, space applications, with x-ray equipment, and in 3D printing applications. Its favorable thermal properties and outgassing characteristics result in its regular use in cryogenic applications and in situations where high vacuum environments are experienced.

But since the four overlapping layers that you noticed - and which serve to create the eight-pointed star effect - are so perfectly oriented, I doubt they were applied on site, which makes me somewhat doubt your theory.

The capsule has several venting holes in it which allowed outside air to enter the interior during descent. Presumably these were quickly covered with seals, which is what we see. The color certainly suggests Kapton, but it's unlikely that it was applied as anything other than a ready-to-go sticker of some sort, not manually applied layers.

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 2:12 pm

miop wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:30 am The color of the "emblem" gives a clear hint towards Kapton tape. There are several layers of the transparent amber film on each of the discs overlapping, resulting in the sun-like emblem. Additionally, you can see some of the tape wrapped around the mounts/sticks on top of the capsule, presumably the parachute fixation. In my experience, this Kapton tape is used by space guys for every purpose like duct tape.

Interesting conjecture. I didn't know what Kapton tape was:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton wrote:Kapton is a polyimide film used in flexible printed circuits (flexible electronics) and space blankets, which are used on spacecraft, satellites, and various space instruments. Invented by the DuPont Corporation in the 1960s, Kapton remains stable (in isolation) across a wide range of temperatures, from 4 to 673 K (−269 to +400 °C). Kapton is used in electronics manufacturing, space applications, with x-ray equipment, and in 3D printing applications. Its favorable thermal properties and outgassing characteristics result in its regular use in cryogenic applications and in situations where high vacuum environments are experienced.

But since the four overlapping layers that you noticed - and which serve to create the eight-pointed star effect - are so perfectly oriented, I doubt they were applied on site, which makes me somewhat doubt your theory.

miop wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:30 am The color of the "emblem" gives a clear hint towards Kapton tape. There are several layers of the transparent amber film on each of the discs overlapping, resulting in the sun-like emblem. Additionally, you can see some of the tape wrapped around the mounts/sticks on top of the capsule, presumably the parachute fixation. In my experience, this Kapton tape is used by space guys for every purpose like duct tape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton wrote:Kapton is a polyimide film used in flexible printed circuits (flexible electronics) and space blankets, which are used on spacecraft, satellites, and various space instruments. Invented by the DuPont Corporation in the 1960s, Kapton remains stable (in isolation) across a wide range of temperatures, from 4 to 673 K (−269 to +400 °C). Kapton is used in electronics manufacturing, space applications, with x-ray equipment, and in 3D printing applications. Its favorable thermal properties and outgassing characteristics result in its regular use in cryogenic applications and in situations where high vacuum environments are experienced.

alter-ego wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 4:31 am

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:10 pm

alter-ego wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:23 am
I wondered about that too. Since you asked, I looked into it and can answer your question.
I couldn't find what the emblem meant, but it was attached to the capsule by one of the two people that first showed up at the site, so, yes, no way that would have survied reentry. The chute was folded up prior to the photo that shows the sun-like emblem. Reviewing the sample return video starting around 1hr 20m, you'll catch the attachment. You can easily see yellow emblem in the after picture. Helicopter circled the site many times, so I found the same views by the using the foreground vegetation.
 
Prior to emblem attach.png
 
After emblem attach.png

Thanks for that. Avalon asked a great question!

I don't know about "easily see"ing the yellow emblem in your second image, but that spot on the sample return capsule (SRC) is indeed different, so that must be it.

I googled for a good 30 minutes for an explanation of that "emblem" and found nothing, but to me I thought the "emblem" looked bolted on, but maybe that's an illusion:

It is an illusion.
Four minutes elapsed between no-spot and spot images. The video narrator said that the person's job was environment and safety checking which entailed outgassing measurements and putting teflon seals on the top of the capsule and on valve(s) located on side of the capsule. These activities are captured in the images below. The left image shows hand contact with the side of the capsule, and on the right, the top seal is being attached (seal is barely visible in person's hands). The view of the capsule in a cleanroom clearly shows the top seal which looks very similar to the "emblem" on the side (not visible in the cleanroom). Note, if you look closely, this top seal is just visible in the APOD image between the chute attachment hardware, greatly foreshortened, but visible.
 
Capsule in Cleanroom_Top Seal Visible.jpg

johnnydeep wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:10 pm

alter-ego wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:23 am

Avalon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:20 am I hope someone is able to answer my question even if I am asking it a day late...what does the "sun" emblem mean and why was it not charred upon re-entry?

I wondered about that too. Since you asked, I looked into it and can answer your question.
I couldn't find what the emblem meant, but it was attached to the capsule by one of the two people that first showed up at the site, so, yes, no way that would have survied reentry. The chute was folded up prior to the photo that shows the sun-like emblem. Reviewing the sample return video starting around 1hr 20m, you'll catch the attachment. You can easily see yellow emblem in the after picture. Helicopter circled the site many times, so I found the same views by the using the foreground vegetation.
 
Prior to emblem attach.png
 
After emblem attach.png

Thanks for that. Avalon asked a great question!

I don't know about "easily see"ing the yellow emblem in your second image, but that spot on the sample return capsule (SRC) is indeed different, so that must be it.

I googled for a good 30 minutes for an explanation of that "emblem" and found nothing, but to me I thought the "emblem" looked bolted on, but maybe that's an illusion:

alter-ego wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:23 am

Avalon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:20 am I hope someone is able to answer my question even if I am asking it a day late...what does the "sun" emblem mean and why was it not charred upon re-entry?

I wondered about that too. Since you asked, I looked into it and can answer your question.
I couldn't find what the emblem meant, but it was attached to the capsule by one of the two people that first showed up at the site, so, yes, no way that would have survied reentry. The chute was folded up prior to the photo that shows the sun-like emblem. Reviewing the sample return video starting around 1hr 20m, you'll catch the attachment. You can easily see yellow emblem in the after picture. Helicopter circled the site many times, so I found the same views by the using the foreground vegetation.
 
Prior to emblem attach.png
 
After emblem attach.png

OSIRIS-REx adopts the Sample Return Capsule design from Stardust – a NASA mission to comet Wild 2 where it was to collect dust samples. Stardust lifted off in February 1999 and flew by asteroid Annefrank ahead of the flyby encounter of Wild 2 in 2003. The spacecraft was tasked with the collection of sample of the cometary dust of Wild 2 as well as cosmic particles that were planned to be captured in an aerogel collector.

The spacecraft returned to Earth on January 15, 2006, slamming into the atmosphere at a velocity of 12.9 Kilometers per second – the fastest re-entry speed ever achieved by a man-made object. Sticking to a steep entry profile, the capsule experienced a deceleration of over 30Gs and slowed from 36 times the speed of sound to subsonic speed in just under two minutes. During the entry process, the capsule endured temperatures of up to 2,900°C.

Avalon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:20 am I hope someone is able to answer my question even if I am asking it a day late...what does the "sun" emblem mean and why was it not charred upon re-entry?

RocketRon wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2023 3:33 am
...

P.S. it would seem the capsule photo has been 'sanitized' by removing the parachute.
Its even been disconnected in this view.
For reasons that can only be guessed at ?
https://earthsky.org/upl/2023/09/astero ... w-cp2.jpeg

Roy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:38 pm Would be interested to know what the planned tests are. They only have half a poun of samples.

orin stepanek wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:36 pm I hope they find something out of this world!