APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by johnnydeep » Wed Sep 06, 2023 11:37 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 11:30 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 11:25 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:27 pm

Thanks! I spent a lot of time on that image, taking a lot of care to match the star colors with the Gaia spectra for hundreds of them, and then allowing the reflection nebula to track the star adjustments. I think this comes as close to being considered "true color" as an astronomical image can.
Matched the colors of hundreds of stars with Gaia? How’d you manage that in a reasonable amount of time?
With a PixInsight tool. It does the color correction against the Gaia spectral catalog in a few seconds. That's the easy part. The tricky processing comes afterwards, in how the data gets stretched out "honestly" to fill the dynamic range of the display image to maintain the color relationships in a reasonable and effective way.
🙀🔭✅

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Sep 06, 2023 11:30 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 11:25 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:27 pm
AVAO wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:55 pm

Hi Chris

The colors in your own image of the Iris Nebula seem much better "chosen" to me than in today's APOD. It looks so much more natural.
I am not only deeply impressed by your knowledge, but also by your ability. Thank you for sharing both here.

Jac
Thanks! I spent a lot of time on that image, taking a lot of care to match the star colors with the Gaia spectra for hundreds of them, and then allowing the reflection nebula to track the star adjustments. I think this comes as close to being considered "true color" as an astronomical image can.
Matched the colors of hundreds of stars with Gaia? How’d you manage that in a reasonable amount of time?
With a PixInsight tool. It does the color correction against the Gaia spectral catalog in a few seconds. That's the easy part. The tricky processing comes afterwards, in how the data gets stretched out "honestly" to fill the dynamic range of the display image to maintain the color relationships in a reasonable and effective way.

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by johnnydeep » Wed Sep 06, 2023 11:25 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:27 pm
AVAO wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:55 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:11 pm
I don't need to grow them... they grow wild here, in abundance in late spring! Certainly one of my favorite wildflowers (but they aren't orchids). So from here in Colorado, here's what I see looking up, and then looking down.
_
Image
Hi Chris

The colors in your own image of the Iris Nebula seem much better "chosen" to me than in today's APOD. It looks so much more natural.
I am not only deeply impressed by your knowledge, but also by your ability. Thank you for sharing both here.

Jac
Thanks! I spent a lot of time on that image, taking a lot of care to match the star colors with the Gaia spectra for hundreds of them, and then allowing the reflection nebula to track the star adjustments. I think this comes as close to being considered "true color" as an astronomical image can.
Matched the colors of hundreds of stars with Gaia? How’d you manage that in a reasonable amount of time?

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:27 pm

AVAO wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:55 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:11 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 7:20 pm
Hi; I really do grow Iris; And I love the Iris Nebula! To me The Iris is an orchid; as it is a very delicate flower! I'll try to get a photo of it when it is in bloom. I have been having trouble downloading photos from my Canon 100 lately, but by the time the orchids are in bloom I should get it figured out! 😎
I don't need to grow them... they grow wild here, in abundance in late spring! Certainly one of my favorite wildflowers (but they aren't orchids). So from here in Colorado, here's what I see looking up, and then looking down.
_
Image
Hi Chris

The colors in your own image of the Iris Nebula seem much better "chosen" to me than in today's APOD. It looks so much more natural.
I am not only deeply impressed by your knowledge, but also by your ability. Thank you for sharing both here.

Jac
Thanks! I spent a lot of time on that image, taking a lot of care to match the star colors with the Gaia spectra for hundreds of them, and then allowing the reflection nebula to track the star adjustments. I think this comes as close to being considered "true color" as an astronomical image can.

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by orin stepanek » Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:56 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:16 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 7:41 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:56 pm

Yeah, and in another sense, literally everything is related - rocks, stars, humans, microbes, water, plasma, etc. - since we're all made out of the same fundamental particles adhering to the same fundamental forces. ...Well, perhaps black holes are in a class by themselves.
Black holes are the landfills that clean up our garbage! :D
If only there was (a "safe") one on Earth that we could use for that purpose. Still wouldn't solve the limited resource problem though. But perhaps we could use the mini BH to generate gobs of energy!
+1

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by AVAO » Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:55 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:11 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 7:20 pm
emc wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 9:28 am

I finally got your joke but I had to visit your Flowers Around the House thread to get it. You funny Orin! :mrgreen: Me slow! :mrgreen:
Hi; I really do grow Iris; And I love the Iris Nebula! To me The Iris is an orchid; as it is a very delicate flower! I'll try to get a photo of it when it is in bloom. I have been having trouble downloading photos from my Canon 100 lately, but by the time the orchids are in bloom I should get it figured out! 😎
I don't need to grow them... they grow wild here, in abundance in late spring! Certainly one of my favorite wildflowers (but they aren't orchids). So from here in Colorado, here's what I see looking up, and then looking down.
_
Image
Hi Chris

The colors in your own image of the Iris Nebula seem much better "chosen" to me than in today's APOD. It looks so much more natural.
I am not only deeply impressed by your knowledge, but also by your ability. Thank you for sharing both here.

Jac

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by johnnydeep » Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:16 pm

orin stepanek wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 7:41 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:56 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:56 am
Go back far enough, and we're all related. Every living thing on Earth descends from LUCA, the last universal common ancestor. About 4 billion years ago.
Yeah, and in another sense, literally everything is related - rocks, stars, humans, microbes, water, plasma, etc. - since we're all made out of the same fundamental particles adhering to the same fundamental forces. ...Well, perhaps black holes are in a class by themselves.
Black holes are the landfills that clean up our garbage! :D
If only there was (a "safe") one on Earth that we could use for that purpose. Still wouldn't solve the limited resource problem though. But perhaps we could use the mini BH to generate gobs of energy!

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by orin stepanek » Wed Sep 06, 2023 7:41 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:56 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:56 am
Ann wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:52 am

No sweat, Orin. I remember that in his Cosmos TV show (from back in the eighties?), Carl Sagan said that humans and oak trees are closely related!

I bet irises and orchids are a bit more closely related than that! :D

Ann
Go back far enough, and we're all related. Every living thing on Earth descends from LUCA, the last universal common ancestor. About 4 billion years ago.
Yeah, and in another sense, literally everything is related - rocks, stars, humans, microbes, water, plasma, etc. - since we're all made out of the same fundamental particles adhering to the same fundamental forces. ...Well, perhaps black holes are in a class by themselves.
Black holes are the landfills that clean up our garbage! :D

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by johnnydeep » Wed Sep 06, 2023 2:14 pm

orin stepanek wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:04 am
johnnydeep wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:17 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:10 pm
Ah Chris; To me they are like orchids and I know they aren't but I looked it up and they are related! Mine are more like this!OIP.jpg
I'd say they're really not that related. They're in different phylogenetic families (Orchidaceae versus Iridaceae), but are at least in the same order (Monocot).

From https://flowerpursuits.com/are-orchids- ... s-related/
Short Answer

Orchids and irises belong to different plant families.
Orchids are part of the Orchidaceae family, and irises are part of the Iridaceae family.

However, both families are part of the larger monocot order of plants, which includes grasses, lilies, and palms.
They also both share some similar characteristics such as having showy blooms and sword-shaped foliage
I just repeated what was in the info file of the computer! what difference does it make anyway! I just gave my feelings about it anyhow!
Sorry, I meant no offense. I can be too pedantic at times, which, around here, isn't all that often since I'm sill a rank ignoramus when it comes to most things astronomical and astrophysical.

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by johnnydeep » Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:17 pm

Chris Alex wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:11 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:56 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:56 am
Go back far enough, and we're all related. Every living thing on Earth descends from LUCA, the last universal common ancestor. About 4 billion years ago.
Yeah, and in another sense, literally everything is related - rocks, stars, humans, microbes, water, plasma, etc. - since we're all made out of the same fundamental particles adhering to the same fundamental forces. ...Well, perhaps black holes are in a class by themselves.
Talk about a cross post! I was just now typing the following - LUCA is the last universal common living ancestor, and of course it was made of molecules which were made of atoms which were made in stars which were initially made with hydrogen which was made of elementary particles which were made at the Big Bang, so humans, trees and ultimately, EVERYTHING in the entire universe is related! Isn't this marvellous?
And though were still waiting to find out where dark matter and dark energy fit in the scheme of things, presumably both still occupy the same shared spacetime "continuum". But again, perhaps black holes would STILL in a class by themselves.

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by Christian G. » Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:11 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:56 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:56 am
Ann wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:52 am

No sweat, Orin. I remember that in his Cosmos TV show (from back in the eighties?), Carl Sagan said that humans and oak trees are closely related!

I bet irises and orchids are a bit more closely related than that! :D

Ann
Go back far enough, and we're all related. Every living thing on Earth descends from LUCA, the last universal common ancestor. About 4 billion years ago.
Yeah, and in another sense, literally everything is related - rocks, stars, humans, microbes, water, plasma, etc. - since we're all made out of the same fundamental particles adhering to the same fundamental forces. ...Well, perhaps black holes are in a class by themselves.
Talk about a cross post! I was just now typing the following - LUCA is the last universal common living ancestor, and of course it was made of molecules which were made of atoms which were made in stars which were initially made with hydrogen which was made of elementary particles which were made at the Big Bang, so humans, trees and ultimately, EVERYTHING in the entire universe is related! Isn't this marvellous?

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by johnnydeep » Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:56 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:56 am
Ann wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:52 am
orin stepanek wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:04 am
I just repeated what was in the info file of the computer! what difference does it make anyway! I just gave my feelings about it anyhow!
No sweat, Orin. I remember that in his Cosmos TV show (from back in the eighties?), Carl Sagan said that humans and oak trees are closely related!

I bet irises and orchids are a bit more closely related than that! :D

Ann
Go back far enough, and we're all related. Every living thing on Earth descends from LUCA, the last universal common ancestor. About 4 billion years ago.
Yeah, and in another sense, literally everything is related - rocks, stars, humans, microbes, water, plasma, etc. - since we're all made out of the same fundamental particles adhering to the same fundamental forces. ...Well, perhaps black holes are in a class by themselves.

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:56 am

Ann wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:52 am
orin stepanek wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:04 am
johnnydeep wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:17 pm

I'd say they're really not that related. They're in different phylogenetic families (Orchidaceae versus Iridaceae), but are at least in the same order (Monocot).

From https://flowerpursuits.com/are-orchids- ... s-related/

I just repeated what was in the info file of the computer! what difference does it make anyway! I just gave my feelings about it anyhow!
No sweat, Orin. I remember that in his Cosmos TV show (from back in the eighties?), Carl Sagan said that humans and oak trees are closely related!

I bet irises and orchids are a bit more closely related than that! :D

Ann
Go back far enough, and we're all related. Every living thing on Earth descends from LUCA, the last universal common ancestor. About 4 billion years ago.

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by Ann » Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:52 am

orin stepanek wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:04 am
johnnydeep wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:17 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:10 pm
Ah Chris; To me they are like orchids and I know they aren't but I looked it up and they are related! Mine are more like this!OIP.jpg
I'd say they're really not that related. They're in different phylogenetic families (Orchidaceae versus Iridaceae), but are at least in the same order (Monocot).

From https://flowerpursuits.com/are-orchids- ... s-related/
Short Answer

Orchids and irises belong to different plant families.
Orchids are part of the Orchidaceae family, and irises are part of the Iridaceae family.

However, both families are part of the larger monocot order of plants, which includes grasses, lilies, and palms.
They also both share some similar characteristics such as having showy blooms and sword-shaped foliage
I just repeated what was in the info file of the computer! what difference does it make anyway! I just gave my feelings about it anyhow!
No sweat, Orin. I remember that in his Cosmos TV show (from back in the eighties?), Carl Sagan said that humans and oak trees are closely related!

I bet irises and orchids are a bit more closely related than that! :D

Ann

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by orin stepanek » Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:04 am

johnnydeep wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:17 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:10 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:11 pm
I don't need to grow them... they grow wild here, in abundance in late spring! Certainly one of my favorite wildflowers (but they aren't orchids). So from here in Colorado, here's what I see looking up, and then looking down.
_

two-irises.jpg
Ah Chris; To me they are like orchids and I know they aren't but I looked it up and they are related! Mine are more like this!OIP.jpg
I'd say they're really not that related. They're in different phylogenetic families (Orchidaceae versus Iridaceae), but are at least in the same order (Monocot).

From https://flowerpursuits.com/are-orchids- ... s-related/
Short Answer

Orchids and irises belong to different plant families.
Orchids are part of the Orchidaceae family, and irises are part of the Iridaceae family.

However, both families are part of the larger monocot order of plants, which includes grasses, lilies, and palms.
They also both share some similar characteristics such as having showy blooms and sword-shaped foliage
I just repeated what was in the info file of the computer! what difference does it make anyway! I just gave my feelings about it anyhow!

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by Ann » Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:40 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:11 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 7:20 pm
emc wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 9:28 am

I finally got your joke but I had to visit your Flowers Around the House thread to get it. You funny Orin! :mrgreen: Me slow! :mrgreen:
Hi; I really do grow Iris; And I love the Iris Nebula! To me The Iris is an orchid; as it is a very delicate flower! I'll try to get a photo of it when it is in bloom. I have been having trouble downloading photos from my Canon 100 lately, but by the time the orchids are in bloom I should get it figured out! 😎
I don't need to grow them... they grow wild here, in abundance in late spring! Certainly one of my favorite wildflowers (but they aren't orchids). So from here in Colorado, here's what I see looking up, and then looking down.
_
Absolutely lovely, Chris!

Ann

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by johnnydeep » Tue Sep 05, 2023 6:17 pm

orin stepanek wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:10 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:11 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 7:20 pm
Hi; I really do grow Iris; And I love the Iris Nebula! To me The Iris is an orchid; as it is a very delicate flower! I'll try to get a photo of it when it is in bloom. I have been having trouble downloading photos from my Canon 100 lately, but by the time the orchids are in bloom I should get it figured out! 😎
I don't need to grow them... they grow wild here, in abundance in late spring! Certainly one of my favorite wildflowers (but they aren't orchids). So from here in Colorado, here's what I see looking up, and then looking down.
_

two-irises.jpg
Ah Chris; To me they are like orchids and I know they aren't but I looked it up and they are related! Mine are more like this!OIP.jpg
I'd say they're really not that related. They're in different phylogenetic families (Orchidaceae versus Iridaceae), but are at least in the same order (Monocot).

From https://flowerpursuits.com/are-orchids- ... s-related/
Short Answer

Orchids and irises belong to different plant families.
Orchids are part of the Orchidaceae family, and irises are part of the Iridaceae family.

However, both families are part of the larger monocot order of plants, which includes grasses, lilies, and palms.
They also both share some similar characteristics such as having showy blooms and sword-shaped foliage

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by orin stepanek » Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:10 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:11 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 7:20 pm
emc wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 9:28 am

I finally got your joke but I had to visit your Flowers Around the House thread to get it. You funny Orin! :mrgreen: Me slow! :mrgreen:
Hi; I really do grow Iris; And I love the Iris Nebula! To me The Iris is an orchid; as it is a very delicate flower! I'll try to get a photo of it when it is in bloom. I have been having trouble downloading photos from my Canon 100 lately, but by the time the orchids are in bloom I should get it figured out! 😎
I don't need to grow them... they grow wild here, in abundance in late spring! Certainly one of my favorite wildflowers (but they aren't orchids). So from here in Colorado, here's what I see looking up, and then looking down.
_

two-irises.jpg
Ah Chris; To me they are like orchids and I know they aren't but I looked it up and they are related! Mine are more like this!
OIP.jpg
OIP.jpg (9.68 KiB) Viewed 6117 times

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:11 pm

orin stepanek wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 7:20 pm
emc wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 9:28 am
orin stepanek wrote: Sat Sep 02, 2023 8:26 pm 268_lorand_fenyes_iris_ngc7023_1024.jpg
I grow Iris flowers and I love them! I even have a pretty blue one
like the nebula! :D
I finally got your joke but I had to visit your Flowers Around the House thread to get it. You funny Orin! :mrgreen: Me slow! :mrgreen:
Hi; I really do grow Iris; And I love the Iris Nebula! To me The Iris is an orchid; as it is a very delicate flower! I'll try to get a photo of it when it is in bloom. I have been having trouble downloading photos from my Canon 100 lately, but by the time the orchids are in bloom I should get it figured out! 😎
I don't need to grow them... they grow wild here, in abundance in late spring! Certainly one of my favorite wildflowers (but they aren't orchids). So from here in Colorado, here's what I see looking up, and then looking down.
_
two-irises.jpg

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by johnnydeep » Mon Sep 04, 2023 6:47 pm

Ann wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 6:28 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 6:01 pm
Ann wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 4:54 pm

Like Han Solo saying his Millennium Falcon made the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs? :derp: :lol2:

(And I'm not laughing at you, but at the mistakes and logical flip flops that I'm guilty of myself. Oh, and maybe I'm laughing at whoever wrote that part of the script for Star Wars...)

Ann
Star Wars apologists will argue that using parsecs in that way is easily explained by taking the use of parsec in this phrase, not as a blockheaded misconstrued unit of time, but as the proper unit of distance it really is as follows:
https://www.wired.com/2013/02/kessel-run-12-parsecs/ wrote:
According to Star Wars: The Essential Atlas, the Kessel Run was an 18-parsec (59 light-year) route used by smugglers to get around Imperial blockades. So why would Solo describe how quickly he traveled it using a word that described distance?

It turns out that the expanded universe of the Star Wars franchise – the additional books and content created within the Star Wars universe but outside of the films – contains an answer to that question. The Essential Atlas maps a Kessel Run whose path travels around “The Maw,” a cluster of black holes. To cut down on the distance traveled, pilots could dangerously skirt the edges of the black holes, while trying to avoid spaghettification. If Solo was a skilled enough – or crazy enough – pilot to deviate from the typical route and fly close enough to the black holes to cut nearly 20 light-years off his space odometer, then his ship was fast indeed — the power required to stay out of the gape of an event horizon is something worth bragging about.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 🥱

I once argued with a creationist and told him that astronomy and science in general does not, in fact, corroborate his claim that humans and dinosaurs were contemporaries - you should have heard his long-winded and huffy defense for his position that Noah did, in fact, invite a pair of dinosaurs to his ark...🦕🦕👫

I guess that believing that Star Wars tells you the truth about space is not quite so serious as believing in dinosaurs on Noah's ark (and believing in Noah's ark in the first place) - or is it?

Ann
The parsec explanation was no doubt contrived after the fact of the script blunder, but it is believable under that path length interpretation, unlike all creationist arguments.

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by Ann » Mon Sep 04, 2023 6:28 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 6:01 pm
Ann wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 4:54 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 2:00 pm

Thanks. Damn, I mangled my words, and was thinking "parsec" (distance measurement) when I wrote parallax. D'oh!

Like Han Solo saying his Millennium Falcon made the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs? :derp: :lol2:

(And I'm not laughing at you, but at the mistakes and logical flip flops that I'm guilty of myself. Oh, and maybe I'm laughing at whoever wrote that part of the script for Star Wars...)

Ann
Star Wars apologists will argue that using parsecs in that way is easily explained by taking the use of parsec in this phrase, not as a blockheaded misconstrued unit of time, but as the proper unit of distance it really is as follows:
https://www.wired.com/2013/02/kessel-run-12-parsecs/ wrote:
According to Star Wars: The Essential Atlas, the Kessel Run was an 18-parsec (59 light-year) route used by smugglers to get around Imperial blockades. So why would Solo describe how quickly he traveled it using a word that described distance?

It turns out that the expanded universe of the Star Wars franchise – the additional books and content created within the Star Wars universe but outside of the films – contains an answer to that question. The Essential Atlas maps a Kessel Run whose path travels around “The Maw,” a cluster of black holes. To cut down on the distance traveled, pilots could dangerously skirt the edges of the black holes, while trying to avoid spaghettification. If Solo was a skilled enough – or crazy enough – pilot to deviate from the typical route and fly close enough to the black holes to cut nearly 20 light-years off his space odometer, then his ship was fast indeed — the power required to stay out of the gape of an event horizon is something worth bragging about.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 🥱

I once argued with a creationist and told him that astronomy and science in general does not, in fact, corroborate his claim that humans and dinosaurs were contemporaries - you should have heard his long-winded and huffy defense for his position that Noah did, in fact, invite a pair of dinosaurs to his ark...🦕🦕👫

I guess that believing that Star Wars tells you the truth about space is not quite so serious as believing in dinosaurs on Noah's ark (and believing in Noah's ark in the first place) - or is it?

Ann

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by johnnydeep » Mon Sep 04, 2023 6:01 pm

Ann wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 4:54 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 2:00 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:56 pm

We don't need the parallax measurement for radial speed, just the Doppler shift. Two or more measurements of position where that value changes gives us the proper motion, and the proper motion, combined with parallax (i.e. distance) gives us tangential speed.

Gaia is fundamentally a position measuring instrument, although it does have instrumentation capable of measuring spectra.
Thanks. Damn, I mangled my words, and was thinking "parsec" (distance measurement) when I wrote parallax. D'oh!

Like Han Solo saying his Millennium Falcon made the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs? :derp: :lol2:

(And I'm not laughing at you, but at the mistakes and logical flip flops that I'm guilty of myself. Oh, and maybe I'm laughing at whoever wrote that part of the script for Star Wars...)

Ann
Star Wars apologists will argue that using parsecs in that way is easily explained by taking the use of parsec in this phrase, not as a blockheaded misconstrued unit of time, but as the proper unit of distance it really is as follows:
https://www.wired.com/2013/02/kessel-run-12-parsecs/ wrote:
According to Star Wars: The Essential Atlas, the Kessel Run was an 18-parsec (59 light-year) route used by smugglers to get around Imperial blockades. So why would Solo describe how quickly he traveled it using a word that described distance?

It turns out that the expanded universe of the Star Wars franchise – the additional books and content created within the Star Wars universe but outside of the films – contains an answer to that question. The Essential Atlas maps a Kessel Run whose path travels around “The Maw,” a cluster of black holes. To cut down on the distance traveled, pilots could dangerously skirt the edges of the black holes, while trying to avoid spaghettification. If Solo was a skilled enough – or crazy enough – pilot to deviate from the typical route and fly close enough to the black holes to cut nearly 20 light-years off his space odometer, then his ship was fast indeed — the power required to stay out of the gape of an event horizon is something worth bragging about.

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by Ann » Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:01 pm

alter-ego wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 2:08 am
Ann wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 4:50 am
alter-ego wrote: Sun Sep 03, 2023 12:16 am

Based on GAIA pm data for this star, I calculate the time difference to be ~23 years.
• There is a large proper motion in declination. Proper motion in RA and Dec = 5.6 mas/yr and 101 mas/yr respectively, or a total pm ≈ 102 mas/yr
• The angular change ≈ 2.3 arcseconds
→ 2.3 arcseconds ÷ 0.1 arcseconds/yr = 23 years
Thanks, alter-ego, I'm so impressed by your skills in math! Thanks for using it here at Starship Asterisk* to help us understand things that have to do with APODs!

You have apparently identified the "flying star". I used Simbad to try to identify it, to get a designation for it, but I failed. All I got was the star next to it (to the west of it), 2MASS J21010772+6808005.

Did you get a designation for the fast moving star? How else could you get a proper motion for it?

In order to know the star's proper motion we need to know its true distance, right? Oh, you just calculated its displacement across the sky between the two images, right?

No, wait, you used Gaia! How did you do that? I have never used Gaia to try to find a star!

Ann
Thank you, I'm glad I could help.
If you can independently find the coordinates for a star in question, you can enter them in a search box at the Gaia website: Gaia Home page, then click search tab. Depending on how well you know the coordinates you can also enter a search area size to include the star. However, it's probably better to go to the Aladin website via the CDS website. Search for the Iris nebula. Here you'll get a familiar scalable image of the nebula. You can select the Gaia DR3 layer (may take a while to load). Click on the star in question (Gaia layer shows hollow squares) and the data shows up on the screen:
Aladin Lite.jpg
Turns out this star only has numbering ID: Gaia DR3 2270239585757069312.

Alternatively, I like using the free downloadable Aladin desktop which is easier to get more results with less work:
Aladin Desktop.jpg
 
Enabling the DR3 layer, and clicking on the star, you'll see a scrollable row of Gaia data at the bottom. Clicking on the Source_ID box takes you a Vizier page which includes other star cross-IDs:
Vizier Cross-IDs.jpg
 
Hope this helps you.
Thank you so much for your help! Maybe I'll be able to use Gaia myself in the future, but I am slow on the uptake, really. I remember how much bystander had to sweat in order to make me understand how to post large images as attachments without uploading them to my computer. Remember that, bystander?

But thanks again, alter-ego! I very much appreciate your help! Maybe I'll even be able to use Gaia myself thanks to you, but I make no promises.

Ann

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by Ann » Mon Sep 04, 2023 4:54 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 2:00 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:56 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:48 pm

Ah, right - of course! So the calculation with parallax gives the radial speed, and the mas change over 23 years will provide the tangential (to our line of sight) speed.
We don't need the parallax measurement for radial speed, just the Doppler shift. Two or more measurements of position where that value changes gives us the proper motion, and the proper motion, combined with parallax (i.e. distance) gives us tangential speed.

Gaia is fundamentally a position measuring instrument, although it does have instrumentation capable of measuring spectra.
Thanks. Damn, I mangled my words, and was thinking "parsec" (distance measurement) when I wrote parallax. D'oh!

Like Han Solo saying his Millennium Falcon made the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs? :derp: :lol2:

(And I'm not laughing at you, but at the mistakes and logical flip flops that I'm guilty of myself. Oh, and maybe I'm laughing at whoever wrote that part of the script for Star Wars...)

Ann

Re: APOD: NGC 7023: The Iris Nebula (2023 Sep 02)

by johnnydeep » Mon Sep 04, 2023 2:00 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:56 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:48 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:40 pm
Proper motion gives us the tangential speed. Doppler shift gives us the radial speed. The two vectors can be combined to give us the (3D) velocity.
Ah, right - of course! So the calculation with parallax gives the radial speed, and the mas change over 23 years will provide the tangential (to our line of sight) speed.
We don't need the parallax measurement for radial speed, just the Doppler shift. Two or more measurements of position where that value changes gives us the proper motion, and the proper motion, combined with parallax (i.e. distance) gives us tangential speed.

Gaia is fundamentally a position measuring instrument, although it does have instrumentation capable of measuring spectra.
Thanks. Damn, I mangled my words, and was thinking "parsec" (distance measurement) when I wrote parallax. D'oh!

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