APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by neufer » Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:34 pm

Roger Thomas Tobari wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:01 pm
In the center of the panorama is a rock that seems different than the others. It seems to have had its top sheared off. I've seen rocks in areas where glacial activity has grinded the tops of rocks smooth to a polished surface.

What could have produced this shearing and why did it not happen to the surrounding rocks?
  • Past glaciers sheared/polished the rocks underneath
    and later dropped 'a thin layer of rocks' on top :?:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaciers_on_Mars wrote:

<<The polar ice caps of Mars show geologic evidence of glacial deposits. The south polar cap is especially comparable to glaciers on Earth. Topographical features and computer models indicate the existence of more glaciers in Mars' past. At mid-latitudes, between 35° and 65° north or south, Martian glaciers are affected by the thin Martian atmosphere. Because of the low atmospheric pressure, ablation near the surface is solely caused by sublimation, not melting. As on Earth, many glaciers are covered with a layer of rocks which insulates the ice. A radar instrument on board the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter found ice under a thin layer of rocks in formations called lobate debris aprons (LDAs).

:arrow: Martian glacier as seen by HiRISE. Glacier is moving down valley, then spreading out on plain. Evidence for flow comes from the many lines on surface. The rimming ridges at the end of the glacier are probably moraines. Location is in Protonilus Mensae in Ismenius Lacus quadrangle.

Glaciers, loosely defined as patches of currently or recently flowing ice, are thought to be present across large but restricted areas of the modern Martian surface, and are inferred to have been more widely distributed at times in the past. Lobate convex features on the surface known as viscous flow features and lobate debris aprons, which show the characteristics of non-Newtonian flow, are now almost unanimously regarded as true glaciers.>>

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Roger Thomas Tobari » Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:01 pm

In the center of the panorama is a rock that seems different than the others. It seems to have had its top sheared off. I've seen rocks in areas where glacial activity has grinded the tops of rocks smooth to a polished surface. What could have produced this shearing and why did it not happen to the surrounding rocks?

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:32 pm

Sam Waldon wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:56 pm Thank you, Chris and Johnny. My geology understanding is weak, but still wondering why there are these sharply angular rocks right next to very smooth, rounded ones. If they've both endured eons of sand blasting, and if they are apparently from the same rock formation, wouldn't they erode similarly? Are they ejecta from relatively recent meteorite impacts?
It's a complex environment. Rocks themselves alter the path of wind and therefore of wind-driven ablation. Rocks will erode differently because of different compositions. If they're sedimentary, the orientation of the rock is important. Some many have been more recently exposed by loss of regolith around them. Look at any rock field on Earth that contains ventifacts, and you'll see the same kind of variation.

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Sam Waldon » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:56 pm

Thank you, Chris and Johnny. My geology understanding is weak, but still wondering why there are these sharply angular rocks right next to very smooth, rounded ones. If they've both endured eons of sand blasting, and if they are apparently from the same rock formation, wouldn't they erode similarly? Are they ejecta from relatively recent meteorite impacts?

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by johnnydeep » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:50 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:38 pm
Sam Waldon wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:11 pm Refer to photo Flat Rock 3 in alter-ego's thread comment. It illustrates the triangular shape I mentioned. I can understand flat or rounded shapes resulting from sedimentation or erosion, but why the sharp angular shapes among them?
Angular rock shapes, facets, and pits are all indications that we're looking at ventifacts, rocks ablated by blowing sand particles.
Cool! I wouldn't have thought it possible for wind to form a pyramidal shape, but it apparently happens. From the link to Dreikanter - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreikanter:
A Dreikanter is a type of ventifact that typically forms in desert or periglacial environments due to the abrasive action of blowing sand.[1][2]

Dreikanters exhibit a characteristic pyramidal shape with three wind-abrased facets. The word Dreikanter is German for "three-edged."[3]

Similarly, a zweikanter ("two-edged") has two wind facets, an einkanter ("one-edged"), has only one wind facet. [4]

Most places on the planet have several weathering processes acting at the same time, so finding good examples of Dreikanters is often difficult. Antarctica is a good location for finding such ventifacts since wind is usually the only active weathering agent. Many specimens in the Northeastern United States were formed during the Pleistocene era when the absence of vegetation made for little cover from wind-blown sediment.[5]
..
Formation

In areas where there is a prevailing wind, sand and debris cause a rock face to become flattened and polished. This changes the mass distribution of the rock, and may cause it to turn another surface toward the wind. If this process continues undisturbed, the resulting rock will have three distinct flattened and polished faces.[7] Dreikanters generally form in dry, arid environments from hard rocks.[7]

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:38 pm

Sam Waldon wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:11 pm Refer to photo Flat Rock 3 in alter-ego's thread comment. It illustrates the triangular shape I mentioned. I can understand flat or rounded shapes resulting from sedimentation or erosion, but why the sharp angular shapes among them?
Angular rock shapes, facets, and pits are all indications that we're looking at ventifacts, rocks ablated by blowing sand particles.

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Sam Waldon » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:11 pm

Refer to photo Flat Rock 3 in alter-ego's thread comment. It illustrates the triangular shape I mentioned. I can understand flat or rounded shapes resulting from sedimentation or erosion, but why the sharp angular shapes among them?

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by johnnydeep » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:21 pm

alter-ego wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:55 am
johnnydeep wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:50 pm
alter-ego wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:41 am I'm intrigued by a few, randomly placed, very flat, table-top like rocks. It looks like they were shaved. Reminded me of newly cut tree stumps. If there were large areas or patches of them it would be less interesting to me. Of all the rocks there's a half dozen or so that a oddly stand out.
Mind pointing a few out with screen captures and arrows? I don't see anything particularly noteworthy myself...yet. Just a random assemblage of rocks of all shapes and sizes stuck at random orientations in the ground. Yeah, a few have flatish tops, but nothing special IMO.

EDIT: I do see some nicely rounded rocks that look like clear signs of erosion by water though!


Erroded Rock in Jezero Crater.JPG
Yup, a lot of randomly oriented rocks, round and angular. I think the lighting and what appears to be dust probably contribute to the illusion a particularly smooth, flat appearance. The ones that caught my eye all had the light-colored top and elevated surface. The first one below I found first, and is the most table-like. Looks like maybe a couple cycles of erosion. Probably a of these are laying around, and maybe many level with the ground surface that don't stand out.
FlatRock1.jpg
FlatRock3.jpg
FlatRock2.jpg
Thanks! I see what you mean. That first one in particular is strikingly flat (or at least appears to be) and the light colored tops of all of them are also interesting.

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by alter-ego » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:55 am

johnnydeep wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:50 pm
alter-ego wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:41 am I'm intrigued by a few, randomly placed, very flat, table-top like rocks. It looks like they were shaved. Reminded me of newly cut tree stumps. If there were large areas or patches of them it would be less interesting to me. Of all the rocks there's a half dozen or so that a oddly stand out.
Mind pointing a few out with screen captures and arrows? I don't see anything particularly noteworthy myself...yet. Just a random assemblage of rocks of all shapes and sizes stuck at random orientations in the ground. Yeah, a few have flatish tops, but nothing special IMO.

EDIT: I do see some nicely rounded rocks that look like clear signs of erosion by water though!


Erroded Rock in Jezero Crater.JPG
Yup, a lot of randomly oriented rocks, round and angular. I think the lighting and what appears to be dust probably contribute to the illusion a particularly smooth, flat appearance. The ones that caught my eye all had the light-colored top and elevated surface. The first one below I found first, and is the most table-like. Looks like maybe a couple cycles of erosion. Probably a of these are laying around, and maybe many level with the ground surface that don't stand out.
FlatRock1.jpg
FlatRock1.jpg (7.29 KiB) Viewed 4687 times
FlatRock3.jpg
FlatRock3.jpg (5.89 KiB) Viewed 4687 times
FlatRock2.jpg
FlatRock2.jpg (4.87 KiB) Viewed 4687 times

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Sam Waldon » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:09 am

As I reviewed the 360 image, I was struck by the large number of rocks that appeared triangular, pyramidal, or conical. They almost looked like plant sprouts trying to poke out of the ground on a spring day! What's even more intriguing is that many of these rocks are located right next to a perfectly rounded rock. With all the sand, which blows often, it would seem erosion would affect all rocks similarly. Why are some of these rocks so acutely angular?

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Round rock denizen » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:44 am

I see a Jawa truck running after R2D2 and C3PO.

I also have to remind myself that, grandiose scenery and warm rosy tones aside, it's c-c-c-cold and in a near-vacuum. You gotta be a robot to really enjoy it (until the dust gets you, that is).

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Avalon » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:40 pm

Is there a way to label the panorama with explanations of known geographical features? I can see portions of the delta formation in the distance, even with some strata appearing in the cliff faces, but some of the sharp peaks more toward the center of the crater appear to be volcanic? Is ancient volcanic activity even possible in the crater floor?

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by sp0ck » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:22 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:50 pm
alter-ego wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:41 am I'm intrigued by a few, randomly placed, very flat, table-top like rocks. It looks like they were shaved. Reminded me of newly cut tree stumps. If there were large areas or patches of them it would be less interesting to me. Of all the rocks there's a half dozen or so that a oddly stand out.
Mind pointing a few out with screen captures and arrows? I don't see anything particularly noteworthy myself...yet. Just a random assemblage of rocks of all shapes and sizes stuck at random orientations in the ground. Yeah, a few have flatish tops, but nothing special IMO.

EDIT: I do see some nicely rounded rocks that look like clear signs of erosion by water though!


Erroded Rock in Jezero Crater.JPG

I was noticing a lot of vaguely ovoid rocks toward the left end of the panorama. I wouldn't get to close...
Image

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:53 pm

De58te wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:43 pm What I find amazing besides the picture is the amazing space technology. Just think this rover landing happened some 50 or 60 million miles away. I can see the area is littered by some car sized boulders particularly along the ridge some 100 yards away (I don't know what the scale is.) especially on the right and left sides of the panorama. And yet when you look at the picture of the landing site where the rover moved some 150 degrees and backed up, you notice that the ground is flat with only pebble size rocks. What the perfect choice in picking a landing site! Imagine what would have happened if the rover landed a few hundred yards away on top of one of those boulders? Would the rover have toppled over? Even if it remained upright would it been able to drive off one of the large pointed rocks?
While the technology is fascinating, and the consequences of failure large, we should understand that the task here was quite ordinary by today's standards of computer smarts. The lander didn't even have to choose the spot, just maintain course within a previously defined visual field. This is pretty much what every self-driving car does, what millions of pieces of industrial automation do.

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by De58te » Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:43 pm

What I find amazing besides the picture is the amazing space technology. Just think this rover landing happened some 50 or 60 million miles away. I can see the area is littered by some car sized boulders particularly along the ridge some 100 yards away (I don't know what the scale is.) especially on the right and left sides of the panorama. And yet when you look at the picture of the landing site where the rover moved some 150 degrees and backed up, you notice that the ground is flat with only pebble size rocks. What the perfect choice in picking a landing site! Imagine what would have happened if the rover landed a few hundred yards away on top of one of those boulders? Would the rover have toppled over? Even if it remained upright would it been able to drive off one of the large pointed rocks?

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:50 pm

Fred the Cat wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:35 pm Fantastic image from Mars with so much detail I can see why the ask for input. The large boulders seem like both a hazard for landing and a source for discussion about their “roundness” – water or wind erosion?

What came to mind regarding the search for previous life robotically or from humans was, if so much was done to decontaminate the rover, how could we ever not bring unwanted life to Mars exploring in person? :?
It is unlikely that anything we would bring from Earth could survive on Mars for long. So mainly it's about avoiding the immediate contamination of material that is being studied, which is quite feasible. Indeed, a good deal of science right here on Earth is conducted under those requirements.

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Fred the Cat » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:35 pm

Fantastic image from Mars with so much detail I can see why the ask for input. The large boulders seem like both a hazard for landing and a source for discussion about their “roundness” – water or wind erosion?

What came to mind regarding the search for previous life robotically or from humans was, if so much was done to decontaminate the rover, how could we ever not bring unwanted life to Mars exploring in person? :?

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:01 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:51 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:49 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:46 pm

You are able to delete (and edit) your own posts. I've have to do both things many times myself!
Only if you create an account. WWW is posting as a guest, so there is no such ability.
Ah. So if WWW creates an account now can he then alter prior posts posted by him/her as a guest?
No, I don't think so. Those posts have no identifiable owner. I imagine they are only modifiable by somebody with administrative privileges.

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by johnnydeep » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:51 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:49 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:46 pm
WWW wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:05 am Sorry about the double post, the page jammed up on me for a while.
You are able to delete (and edit) your own posts. I've have to do both things many times myself!
Only if you create an account. WWW is posting as a guest, so there is no such ability.
Ah. So if WWW creates an account now can he then alter prior posts posted by him/her as a guest?

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by johnnydeep » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:50 pm

alter-ego wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:41 am I'm intrigued by a few, randomly placed, very flat, table-top like rocks. It looks like they were shaved. Reminded me of newly cut tree stumps. If there were large areas or patches of them it would be less interesting to me. Of all the rocks there's a half dozen or so that a oddly stand out.
Mind pointing a few out with screen captures and arrows? I don't see anything particularly noteworthy myself...yet. Just a random assemblage of rocks of all shapes and sizes stuck at random orientations in the ground. Yeah, a few have flatish tops, but nothing special IMO.

EDIT: I do see some nicely rounded rocks that look like clear signs of erosion by water though!

Eroded Rocks in Jezero Crater?
Eroded Rocks in Jezero Crater?

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:49 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:46 pm
WWW wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:05 am Sorry about the double post, the page jammed up on me for a while.
You are able to delete (and edit) your own posts. I've have to do both things many times myself!
Only if you create an account. WWW is posting as a guest, so there is no such ability.

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by johnnydeep » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:46 pm

WWW wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:05 am Sorry about the double post, the page jammed up on me for a while.
You are able to delete (and edit) your own posts. I've have to do both things many times myself!

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by Tszabeau » Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:02 pm

Do sand traps count as a sign of life?

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by orin stepanek » Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:50 pm

Thanks for the 360 panorama! Neat photo of Percy's surroundings! :D

Re: APOD: Perseverance 360: Unusual Rocks and... (2021 Mar 09)

by WWW » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:00 am

The medium size darker stones sitting atop of the lighter color flat stones almost seems like it could be from glacial action, (the dark stones would have come from a different area and dragged there by an ice flow). When the glacier melts the stones settle out and seem very out of place compared to the original surface stone. The actions of an ancient glacier can mimic many features of an ancient river flow. Even the small hills in the nearer background look to be made of small stones and gravel rather than from fine sand. Large deposits of small stones and gravel might be similar to glacial mounds on Earth known as terminal moraines, these form at the edges and ends of a melting glacier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_moraine . One sure sign of glacial action would be to view the surfaces of the flat surface stones up close and look for striation scratches. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_striation

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