APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:37 pm

Javachip3 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:25 pm Why are photons reaching us from the Andromeda Galaxy not the same photons that left the Andromeda Galaxy? Is that because photons from the Andromeda Galaxy interact with intervening dust clouds or other matter on their way to Earth?
Very few photons interact with matter between Andromeda and Earth. But most interact with Earth's atmosphere before they reach your eye, and probably all the photons that enter your eye are absorbed and re-emitted many times before they reach your retina.
M31 is very nearby on the cosmological scale and is approaching us, not receding. All photons escaping M31 in our direction (allowing for 2.5 million years of galactic motion) should reach us unless something happens to them en route.
Of course, that represents a vanishingly small percentage of all the photons leaving Andromeda.
If Earth is at the center of a sphere, at what radius do objects recede from us due to cosmological inflation at faster than c, so that their photons can no longer reach us, nor ours reach them? Would that be 13.8 billion light years? This idea is difficult for me to conceptualize because the hypothetical sphere in the question is defined within space-time that is not fixed, but expanding.
The edge of the observable universe (that is, the horizon beyond which the expansion rate is greater than c) is about 46 billion light years away, which accounts for the expansion that has occurred over 13.8 billion years.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Javachip3 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:25 pm

Why are photons reaching us from the Andromeda Galaxy not the same photons that left the Andromeda Galaxy? Is that because photons from the Andromeda Galaxy interact with intervening dust clouds or other matter on their way to Earth? Or do you refer to particle physics (light on light scattering, photon-photon collisions to produce electron-positron pairs, or the reverse reaction) or quantum effects (virtual photons)? In any of the latter examples, "new" photons from M31 arriving at my eyeball would not contribute to the sharp optical image of M31 that my brain or my camera sensor creates.

M31 is very nearby on the cosmological scale and is approaching us, not receding. All photons escaping M31 in our direction (allowing for 2.5 million years of galactic motion) should reach us unless something happens to them en route.

If Earth is at the center of a sphere, at what radius do objects recede from us due to cosmological inflation at faster than c, so that their photons can no longer reach us, nor ours reach them? Would that be 13.8 billion light years? This idea is difficult for me to conceptualize because the hypothetical sphere in the question is defined within space-time that is not fixed, but expanding. There aren't many opportunities to get intelligent answers to these questions, so thank you. :ssmile:

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:28 pm

Javachip3 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:25 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:22 pm ... probably 99.999% of all light emitted by stars is not absorbed by anything, near or far...
If the Universe is sufficiently or infinitely large, with a sufficient or infinite number of massive objects, then it follows that every single photon emitted by our star or any star is absorbed or annihilated by something, somewhere, eventually.

One night 2.5 million years ago, octillions (poetic license) of photons escaped from the Andromeda Galaxy. Last night, hundreds of them were absorbed by my eyeball.
Actually, not a single photon that your eye recorded from Andromeda was likely emitted by Andromeda.

In an expanding Universe, with much of it expanding away from photon sources at greater than the speed of light, there is no reason to think that most photons will ever interact with matter.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Javachip3 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:25 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:22 pm ... probably 99.999% of all light emitted by stars is not absorbed by anything, near or far...
If the Universe is sufficiently or infinitely large, with a sufficient or infinite number of massive objects, then it follows that every single photon emitted by our star or any star is absorbed or annihilated by something, somewhere, eventually.

One night 2.5 million years ago, octillions (poetic license) of photons escaped from the Andromeda Galaxy. Last night, hundreds of them were absorbed by my eyeball.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Wolf » Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:58 pm

Am I just having a pareidolia or is this a black eye for January 7th.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:13 pm

Ann wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:03 am I was supposed to be there and see the eclipse, which would have been my first ever. But... then we got the pandemic, and we cancelled
Well, that's a bummer! It's an experience that has no equal.

But you've got some good opportunities in the near future. A very good one in the U.S. in 2024 (if the U.S. is still here; stop by Colorado for a visit). 2026 in Spain, 2027 Spain and Northern Africa.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by sillyworm 2 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:31 pm

Gorgeous

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Ann » Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:03 am

I was supposed to be there and see the eclipse, which would have been my first ever. But... then we got the pandemic, and we cancelled.

Ann

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:48 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:13 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:30 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:22 pm

Well, probably 99.999% of all light emitted by stars is not absorbed by anything, near or far. But that thought makes me wonder how much energy in the form of protons and neutrinos is free flying throughout the universe. I'll take that number in watts/m3 please, Chris. (is that even the correct unit?) :ssmile:
Watts per square meter would be a typical unit for irradiance. If you want to work with time and energy, you can consider the fact that a watt is one joule per second.
Ok, so then (...after reading wikipedia...), I guess that energy density is what I was after, which is Joules/m3, and therefore also Watt seconds/m3, which tortured unit probably is helpful to no one.
There are about a dozen ways of looking at luminance and flux and energy density and spectral irradiance and...

Many have tortured units, and keeping track of the sometimes subtle differences between them can be a challenge.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by johnnydeep » Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:13 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:30 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:22 pm
DL MARTIN wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:03 pm In reference to my question regarding the transference and storage (absorption) of energy resulting from earthshine and moonshine, I neglected to include time as a variable. In addition, I'm not limiting my question to a parochial moon-earth thing. The question I've in mind is how much energy is exchanged and stored among celestial bodies, seemingly in a passive format, yet collectively of possible consequence, in the search for dark energy.
Well, probably 99.999% of all light emitted by stars is not absorbed by anything, near or far. But that thought makes me wonder how much energy in the form of protons and neutrinos is free flying throughout the universe. I'll take that number in watts/m3 please, Chris. (is that even the correct unit?) :ssmile:
Watts per square meter would be a typical unit for irradiance. If you want to work with time and energy, you can consider the fact that a watt is one joule per second.
Ok, so then (...after reading wikipedia...), I guess that energy density is what I was after, which is Joules/m3, and therefore also Watt seconds/m3, which tortured unit probably is helpful to no one.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by DL MARTIN » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:35 pm

Thanks to Chris Peterson and johnnydeep for your patience in clarifying things.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:44 pm

DL MARTIN wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:34 pm Is there not transference and absorption of light energy among galaxies? Or when I look at a star!
Energy is transferred by photons. It is always moving outward from sources like stars, and a tiny, tiny fraction will naturally get absorbed by atoms in distant places. But the energy a galaxy absorbs from the surrounding universe is such an immensely tiny fraction of the energy it generates locally that this absorbed energy has no meaningful physical effect.

Dark energy has no relationship to this.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by DL MARTIN » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:34 pm

Is there not transference and absorption of light energy among galaxies? Or when I look at a star!

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:30 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:22 pm
DL MARTIN wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:03 pm In reference to my question regarding the transference and storage (absorption) of energy resulting from earthshine and moonshine, I neglected to include time as a variable. In addition, I'm not limiting my question to a parochial moon-earth thing. The question I've in mind is how much energy is exchanged and stored among celestial bodies, seemingly in a passive format, yet collectively of possible consequence, in the search for dark energy.
Well, probably 99.999% of all light emitted by stars is not absorbed by anything, near or far. But that thought makes me wonder how much energy in the form of protons and neutrinos is free flying throughout the universe. I'll take that number in watts/m3 please, Chris. (is that even the correct unit?) :ssmile:
Watts per square meter would be a typical unit for irradiance. If you want to work with time and energy, you can consider the fact that a watt is one joule per second.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by johnnydeep » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:22 pm

DL MARTIN wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:03 pm In reference to my question regarding the transference and storage (absorption) of energy resulting from earthshine and moonshine, I neglected to include time as a variable. In addition, I'm not limiting my question to a parochial moon-earth thing. The question I've in mind is how much energy is exchanged and stored among celestial bodies, seemingly in a passive format, yet collectively of possible consequence, in the search for dark energy.
Well, probably 99.999% of all light emitted by stars is not absorbed by anything, near or far. But that thought makes me wonder how much energy in the form of protonsphotons and neutrinos is free flying throughout the universe. I'll take that number in watts/m3 please, Chris. (is that even the correct unit?) :ssmile:

EDIT: of course I meant photons above, not protons! Though I supposed there can indeed be free protons (aka positively charged hydrogen ions) in most otherwise empty space, along with the occasional normal atom or molecule.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by DL MARTIN » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:03 pm

In reference to my question regarding the transference and storage (absorption) of energy resulting from earthshine and moonshine, I neglected to include time as a variable. In addition, I'm not limiting my question to a parochial moon-earth thing. The question I've in mind is how much energy is exchanged and stored among celestial bodies, seemingly in a passive format, yet collectively of possible consequence, in the search for dark energy.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Guest1000 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:50 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:56 pm
I have seen a number of total eclipses, and there is no motion. Nothing we see at this scale moves visibly in a few minutes of totality. There are a few dynamic effects created around the edges as the Moon blocks and exposes the surface of the Sun, but that is all. Any sense that things are moving is just an optical illusion... which is why we don't see it in videos.
Thank you very much! Always great to clear up misunderstandings! :D

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by johnnydeep » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:43 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:54 pm
johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:19 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:04 pm

The energy we receive from the corona amounts to a nearly unmeasurably small fraction of the energy from the Sun's surface.
I believe DL MARTIN was talking about the energy the moon receives from earthshine, and how much energy the earth receives from moonshine. Nothing to do with the sun's corona. I imagine the solar flux (in watts/m2) in either case is pretty small.
Maybe. People have looked at the effect of earthshine at the Moon. The Moon receives about 75 mW per square meter from light reflected off the Earth, and another 75 mW per square meter from thermal radiation emitted by the Earth. So a total of 150 mW per square meter. Clearly, the Earth will receive much less than this from sunlight reflected directly from the Moon, and even less from earthshine. Given the Moon's low albedo, the direct energy contribution at Earth from a full Moon can't be more than a few tens of milliwatts per square meter at most, compared with over a kilowatt per square meter from direct sunlight.
Thanks for the numbers. I hadn't even thought about the light the earth receives from earthshine hitting the moon! Then there's the energy the moon receives from moonshine hitting the earth, and so on reflecting ad infinitum. :shock:

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:56 pm

Guest1000 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:50 pm So many who have seen totality live say what impressed them most was the active motion visible, waves rippling out etc.
I have never seen it live.
I have never seen a video of this brief moment. All videos seem to show the entire eclipse from start to end, time lapses etc., but never just the most fascinating part.
Does anyone have any links of such a video?
I have seen a number of total eclipses, and there is no motion. Nothing we see at this scale moves visibly in a few minutes of totality. There are a few dynamic effects created around the edges as the Moon blocks and exposes the surface of the Sun, but that is all. Any sense that things are moving is just an optical illusion... which is why we don't see it in videos.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:54 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:19 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:04 pm
DL MARTIN wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:56 am Is there an accounting of the energy transferred and subsequently stored as a result of earthshine, moonshine...?
The energy we receive from the corona amounts to a nearly unmeasurably small fraction of the energy from the Sun's surface.
I believe DL MARTIN was talking about the energy the moon receives from earthshine, and how much energy the earth receives from moonshine. Nothing to do with the sun's corona. I imagine the solar flux (in watts/m2) in either case is pretty small.
Maybe. People have looked at the effect of earthshine at the Moon. The Moon receives about 75 mW per square meter from light reflected off the Earth, and another 75 mW per square meter from thermal radiation emitted by the Earth. So a total of 150 mW per square meter. Clearly, the Earth will receive much less than this from sunlight reflected directly from the Moon, and even less from earthshine. Given the Moon's low albedo, the direct energy contribution at Earth from a full Moon can't be more than a few tens of milliwatts per square meter at most, compared with over a kilowatt per square meter from direct sunlight.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Guest1000 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:50 pm

So many who have seen totality live say what impressed them most was the active motion visible, waves rippling out etc.
I have never seen it live.
I have never seen a video of this brief moment. All videos seem to show the entire eclipse from start to end, time lapses etc., but never just the most fascinating part.
Does anyone have any links of such a video?

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by johnnydeep » Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:19 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:04 pm
DL MARTIN wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:56 am Is there an accounting of the energy transferred and subsequently stored as a result of earthshine, moonshine...?
The energy we receive from the corona amounts to a nearly unmeasurably small fraction of the energy from the Sun's surface.
I believe DL MARTIN was talking about the energy the moon receives from earthshine, and how much energy the earth receives from moonshine. Nothing to do with the sun's corona. I imagine the solar flux (in watts/m2) in either case is pretty small.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:20 pm

Mountainjim62 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:11 pm Is there an explanation for why the corona looks distinctly different on the right & left side of the sun compared to the top & bottom of the sum in the image?
The shape of the corona is highly influenced by the Sun's magnetic field.

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Mountainjim62 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:11 pm

Is there an explanation for why the corona looks distinctly different on the right & left side of the sun compared to the top & bottom of the sum in the image?

Re: APOD: Total Solar Eclipse 2020 (2021 Jan 07)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:04 pm

DL MARTIN wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:56 am Is there an accounting of the energy transferred and subsequently stored as a result of earthshine, moonshine...?
The energy we receive from the corona amounts to a nearly unmeasurably small fraction of the energy from the Sun's surface.

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