APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by eguti » Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:11 am

Nice article, but I really wanted to see the picture of the day. I checked and there’s none!!

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by BDanielMayfield » Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:20 am

Nvarius wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:20 am It appears that colliding neutron stars are not the source of the unexplained abundance of gold in our observable universe.
I’ve been seeing news reports to that effect too. The suggestion is that neutron star mergers are too rare to have produced all the gold at its observed universal abundance.
Due to the complex and difficult molecular process required to produce gold, I am thinking that the main source of gold might be coming from black holes. Is this even a possibility?
Coming directly from black holes would be impossible (since nothing can escape from them), but fusion could be possible (supposition) inside a bh’s accretion disk. But for this to be main site for Au’s production it would then have to be ejected out the bh’s jets, which seems highly unlikely.

The team making the claim that NS mergers aren’t the main source for Au have also proposed that rapidly spinning very massive star core collapse SN could be the universe’s main Au producer.

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by neufer » Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:10 pm

Nvarius wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:20 am
It appears that colliding neutron stars are not the source of the unexplained abundance of gold in our observable universe. Due to the complex and difficult molecular process required to produce gold, I am thinking that the main source of gold might be coming from black holes. Is this even a possibility?
No.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold wrote:
<<Traditionally, gold in the universe is thought to have formed by the r-process (rapid neutron capture) in supernova nucleosynthesis,[51] but more recently it has been suggested that gold and other elements heavier than iron may also be produced in quantity by the r-process in the collision of neutron stars. In both cases, satellite spectrometers at first only indirectly detected the resulting gold. However, in August 2017, the spectroscopic signatures of heavy elements, including gold, were observed by electromagnetic observatories in the GW170817 neutron star merger event, after gravitational wave detectors confirmed the event as a neutron star merger. Current astrophysical models suggest that this single neutron star merger event generated between 3 and 13 Earth masses of gold. This amount, along with estimations of the rate of occurrence of these neutron star merger events, suggests that such mergers may produce enough gold to account for most of the abundance of this element in the universe.

The r-process entails a succession of rapid neutron captures (hence the name) by one or more heavy seed nuclei, typically beginning with nuclei in the abundance peak centered on 56Fe. The captures must be rapid in the sense that the nuclei must not have time to undergo radioactive decay (typically via β− decay) before another neutron arrives to be captured. This sequence can continue up to the limit of stability of the increasingly neutron-rich nuclei (the neutron drip line) to physically retain neutrons as governed by the short range nuclear force. The r-process therefore must occur in locations where there exist a high density of free neutrons. Early studies theorized that 1024 free neutrons per cm3 would be required, for temperatures about 1GK, in order to match the waiting points, at which no more neutrons can be captured, with the atomic numbers of the abundance peaks for r-process nuclei. This amounts to almost a gram of free neutrons in every cubic centimeter, an astonishing number requiring extreme locations. Traditionally this suggested the material ejected from the reexpanded core of a core-collapse supernova, as part of supernova nucleosynthesis, or decompression of neutron-star matter thrown off by a binary neutron star merger. The relative contributions of these sources to the astrophysical abundance of r-process elements is a matter of ongoing research.

A limited r-process-like series of neutron captures occurs to a minor extent in thermonuclear weapon explosions. These led to the discovery of the elements einsteinium (element 99) and fermium (element 100) in nuclear weapon fallout.

The r-process contrasts with the s-process, the other predominant mechanism for the production of heavy elements, which is nucleosynthesis by means of slow captures of neutrons. The s-process primarily occurs within ordinary stars, particularly AGB stars, where the neutron flux is sufficient to cause neutron captures to recur every 10–100 years, much too slow for the r-process, which requires 100 captures per second. The s-process is secondary, meaning that it requires pre-existing heavy isotopes as seed nuclei to be converted into other heavy nuclei by a slow sequence of captures of free neutrons. The r-process scenarios create their own seed nuclei, so they might proceed in massive stars that contain no heavy seed nuclei. Taken together, the r- and s-processes account for almost the entire abundance of chemical elements heavier than iron. The historical challenge has been to locate physical settings appropriate for their time scales.>>

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by Nvarius » Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:20 am

It appears that colliding neutron stars are not the source of the unexplained abundance of gold in our observable universe. Due to the complex and difficult molecular process required to produce gold, I am thinking that the main source of gold might be coming from black holes. Is this even a possibility?

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by BDanielMayfield » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:48 am

Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:42 pm
BDanielMayfield wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:35 pm
The hydrogen in your body, present in every molecule of water, came from the Big Bang.
Is this perfectly true? It is certainly true that, to the best of our current understanding, every proton was originally formed in the Big Bang. But Is every Hydrogen atom nuclei a pristine fragment of the BB? No. A non-negligible fraction of H nuclei have once part of other heavier elements, but have broken free ether from spallation or by radioactive decay.
I wouldn't swear to it, but I have a strong inkling that the overwhelming majority of hydrogen found on Earth is primordial in origin (unlike helium). That is, the amount of H that exists because of radioactive processes is, probably, negligible.
After reviewing the main sets of decay chains (which don’t normally decay by emitting single protons) I now agree with your inkling Chris.

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by luftwaffe1@aol.com » Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:30 am

How can I get a copy of this periodic table to insert into my Physics text book? pass the ice cold one

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by orin stepanek » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:43 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:59 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:26 pm When I graduated from HS in '58; there were 101 elements that I recall! Actually MD was created in 1955! Curios looking at today's APOD; I went on line & found 114 to 118! Wow! :shock:
Well, when Art graduated there were just four.
:lol2: :mrgreen:

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:40 pm

johnnydeep wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:34 pm
saturnine wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:36 am
David G wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:13 am The only colour that's not in the legend is dark brown ... what cosmic process is responsible for Tc, Po, At, etc.?
I'm guessing none. I think these all have half lives that are too short for there to be any left over that have originate from cosmic processes. Anything naturally occurring now would be from recent radioactive decay of other elements.
This is an oddity of this APOD. The main pic doesn't include the dark gray (or brown) color code for the "Human systhesis, No stable isotopes" category of element origin, but the "featured periodic table" link refers to an SVG in the Wikipedia article for Nucleosynthesis that DOES include it. From https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _table.svg :

Image
Presumably because this is a Sunday repeat. The link points to an actively maintained image, which has been updated since the static image on the APOD page was first created.

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by johnnydeep » Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:34 pm

saturnine wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:36 am
David G wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:13 am The only colour that's not in the legend is dark brown ... what cosmic process is responsible for Tc, Po, At, etc.?
I'm guessing none. I think these all have half lives that are too short for there to be any left over that have originate from cosmic processes. Anything naturally occurring now would be from recent radioactive decay of other elements.
This is an oddity of this APOD. The main pic doesn't include the dark gray (or brown) color code for the "Human systhesis, No stable isotopes" category of element origin, but the "featured periodic table" link refers to an SVG in the Wikipedia article for Nucleosynthesis that DOES include it. From https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _table.svg :

Image

And I now see there are other differences as well. Here's the APOD image:
nucleosynthesis of elements - APOD pic.JPG

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by neufer » Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:04 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:59 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:26 pm
When I graduated from HS in '58; there were 101 elements that I recall! Actually MD was created in 1955! Curios looking at today's APOD; I went on line & found 114 to 118! Wow! :shock:
Well, when Art graduated there were just four.
Well, five actually.

I still remember counting down from 100 (by 7's :?: ) while they administered that fifth element.

When I awoke (sans tonsils) they refused to give me the Shredded Wheat that I pleaded for (so I guess that couldn't qualify as a sixth element).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_(classical_element) wrote:
<<In Plato's Timaeus speaking about air, Plato mentions that "there is the most translucent kind which is called by the name of aether (αἰθήρ)" but otherwise he adopted the classical system of four elements. Aristotle, who had been Plato's student at the Akademia, agreed on this point with his former mentor, emphasizing additionally that fire has sometimes been mistaken for aether. However, in his Book On the Heavens he introduced a new "first" element to the system of the classical elements of Ionian philosophy. He noted that the four terrestrial classical elements were subject to change and naturally moved linearly. The first element however, located in the celestial regions and heavenly bodies, moved circularly and had none of the qualities the terrestrial classical elements had. It was neither hot nor cold, neither wet nor dry. With this addition the system of elements was extended to five and later commentators started referring to the new first one as the fifth and also called it aether, a word that Aristotle had not used.

Aether differed from the four terrestrial elements; it was incapable of motion of quality or motion of quantity. Aether was only capable of local motion. Aether naturally moved in circles, and had no contrary, or unnatural, motion. Aristotle also noted that celestial spheres made of aether held the stars and planets. The idea of aethereal spheres moving with natural circular motion led to Aristotle's explanation of the observed orbits of stars and planets in perfectly circular motion.

Medieval scholastic philosophers granted aether changes of density, in which the bodies of the planets were considered to be more dense than the medium which filled the rest of the universe. Robert Fludd stated that the aether was of the character that it was "subtler than light". Fludd cites the 3rd-century view of Plotinus, concerning the aether as penetrative and non-material.>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories wrote:
Albert Einstein sometimes used the word aether for the gravitational field within general relativity, but this terminology never gained widespread support:
  • We may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an aether. According to the general theory of relativity space without aether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense. But this aether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable media, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it.

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:42 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:35 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:16 pm
Dan Loeb wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:12 pm Our atmosphere bled off Earth's inital allotment of Helium long ago. All of the Helium on Earth results from the nuclear decay of heavier elements. Helium thus formed is often trapped in deep rock formations. That is why your party balloons are filled with Helium extracted as a by-product of oil drilling operations. Sadly I don't see a color in the legend for this.
Presumably because that source represents so much less than 1% of the total helium in the Universe that it couldn't be shown on the chart. This does represent the source of elements in the Universe, after all, not the source of elements found on Earth.
Dan Loeb made a good observation though about Earth's He. In the same line of thinking, consider the accuracy of the very first sentence in today's Explanation:
The hydrogen in your body, present in every molecule of water, came from the Big Bang.
Is this perfectly true? It is certainly true that, to the best of our current understanding, every proton was originally formed in the Big Bang. But Is every Hydrogen atom nuclei a pristine fragment of the BB? No. A non-negligible fraction of H nuclei have once part of other heavier elements, but have broken free ether from spallation or by radioactive decay.
I wouldn't swear to it, but I have a strong inkling that the overwhelming majority of hydrogen found on Earth is primordial in origin (unlike helium). That is, the amount of H that exists because of radioactive processes is, probably, negligible.

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by BDanielMayfield » Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:35 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:16 pm
Dan Loeb wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:12 pm Our atmosphere bled off Earth's inital allotment of Helium long ago. All of the Helium on Earth results from the nuclear decay of heavier elements. Helium thus formed is often trapped in deep rock formations. That is why your party balloons are filled with Helium extracted as a by-product of oil drilling operations. Sadly I don't see a color in the legend for this.
Presumably because that source represents so much less than 1% of the total helium in the Universe that it couldn't be shown on the chart. This does represent the source of elements in the Universe, after all, not the source of elements found on Earth.
Dan Loeb made a good observation though about Earth's He. In the same line of thinking, consider the accuracy of the very first sentence in today's Explanation:
The hydrogen in your body, present in every molecule of water, came from the Big Bang.
Is this perfectly true? It is certainly true that, to the best of our current understanding, every proton was originally formed in the Big Bang. But Is every Hydrogen atom nuclei a pristine fragment of the BB? No. A non-negligible fraction of H nuclei have once part of other heavier elements, but have broken free ether from spallation or by radioactive decay.

Bruce

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:16 pm

Dan Loeb wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:12 pm Our atmosphere bled off Earth's inital allotment of Helium long ago. All of the Helium on Earth results from the nuclear decay of heavier elements. Helium thus formed is often trapped in deep rock formations. That is why your party balloons are filled with Helium extracted as a by-product of oil drilling operations. Sadly I don't see a color in the legend for this.
Presumably because that source represents so much less than 1% of the total helium in the Universe that it couldn't be shown on the chart. This does represent the source of elements in the Universe, after all, not the source of elements found on Earth.

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by Dan Loeb » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:12 pm

Our atmosphere bled off Earth's inital allotment of Helium long ago. All of the Helium on Earth results from the nuclear decay of heavier elements. Helium thus formed is often trapped in deep rock formations. That is why your party balloons are filled with Helium extracted as a by-product of oil drilling operations. Sadly I don't see a color in the legend for this.

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:59 pm

orin stepanek wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:26 pm When I graduated from HS in '58; there were 101 elements that I recall! Actually MD was created in 1955! Curios looking at today's APOD; I went on line & found 114 to 118! Wow! :shock:
Well, when Art graduated there were just four.

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by orin stepanek » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:48 pm

Ann wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:18 pm
neufer wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:42 pm
heehaw wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:45 am
How appropriate that my gold wedding ring was made in merging neutron stars!
"Your precious :!: "

Not just wedding rings are precious, although I'm not sure what cosmic processes are involved in making that other precious stuff... :wink:

Ann

That toilet paper problem seems to have been Rectumfied er--rectified! Here in the states anyway! 🧻 🚽

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by orin stepanek » Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:43 pm

neufer wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:51 pm
orin stepanek wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:26 pm
When I graduated from HS in '58; there were 101 elements that I recall! Actually MD was created in 1955!

Curios looking at today's APOD; I went on line & found 114 to 118! Wow! :shock:
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Very nice Art; even though I couldn't listen fast enough! 😅 😂 🤣 :b: :clap:

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by Ann » Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:18 pm

neufer wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:42 pm
heehaw wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:45 am
How appropriate that my gold wedding ring was made in merging neutron stars!
"Your precious :!: "

Not just wedding rings are precious, although I'm not sure what cosmic processes are involved in making that other precious stuff... :wink:

Ann

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by neufer » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:51 pm

orin stepanek wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:26 pm
When I graduated from HS in '58; there were 101 elements that I recall! Actually MD was created in 1955!

Curios looking at today's APOD; I went on line & found 114 to 118! Wow! :shock:
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by neufer » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:42 pm

heehaw wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:45 am
How appropriate that my gold wedding ring was made in merging neutron stars!
"Your precious :!: "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Ring wrote:
<<The One Ring was forged by the Dark Lord Sauron during the Second Age to gain dominion over the free peoples of Middle-earth. In disguise as Annatar, or "Lord of Gifts", he aided the Elven smiths of Eregion and their leader Celebrimbor in the making of the Rings of Power. He then forged the One Ring in the fires of Mount Doom.

As the Ring contained much of Sauron's power, it was endowed with a malevolent sentience. While separated from Sauron, the Ring strove to return to him by manipulating its bearer to claim ownership of it, or by abandoning its bearer. To master the Ring's capabilities, a Ring bearer would need a well-trained mind, a strong will, and great native power. Those with weaker minds, such as hobbits and [heehaw], would gain little from the Ring, let alone realize its full potential.>>

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by Thrilled » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:39 pm

Actually phosphorous is much more abundant than copper in the human body. Wikipedia says the following:
An average adult human contains about 0.7 kg of phosphorus, about 85–90% in bones and teeth in the form of apatite, and the remainder in soft tissues and extracellular fluids (~1%).
The human body contains copper at a level of about 1.4 to 2.1 mg per kg of body mass.

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by orin stepanek » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:26 pm

When I graduated from HS in '58; there were 101 elements that I recall! Actually MD was created in 1955! Curios looking at today's APOD; I went on line & found 114 to 118! Wow! :shock:

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by neufer » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:24 pm

De58te wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:40 am
If purple elements like Iodine and Iridium were only made in merging neutron stars which are so dense that only light can escape, then how did the iridium get to Earth? There aren't too many neutron stars in the Solar System that ancient human miners cold mine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilonova wrote:
<<A kilonova (also called a macronova or r-process supernova) is a transient astronomical event that occurs in a compact binary system when two neutron stars or a neutron star and a black hole merge into each other. Kilonovae are thought to emit short gamma-ray bursts and strong electromagnetic radiation due to the radioactive decay of heavy r-process nuclei that are produced and ejected fairly isotropically during the merger process.>>

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by De58te » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:40 am

Just a thought provoking question. If purple elements like Iodine and Iridium were only made in merging neutron stars which are so dense that only light can escape, then how did the iridium get to Earth? There aren't too many neutron stars in the Solar System that ancient human miners cold mine.

Re: APOD: The Origin of Elements (2020 Aug 09)

by saturnine » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:36 am

David G wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:13 am The only colour that's not in the legend is dark brown ... what cosmic process is responsible for Tc, Po, At, etc.?
I'm guessing none. I think these all have half lives that are too short for there to be any left over that have originate from cosmic processes. Anything naturally occurring now would be from recent radioactive decay of other elements.

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