APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by geckzilla » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:56 am

Ann wrote: Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:51 am
Chris Peterson wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:25 pm
geckzilla wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:36 pm By the way, I've got a 4 filter version of this mosaic put together here: https://geckzilla.prodibi.com/a/y8vmwyj ... q12BEbA%3D
Note it's meant to be zoomed into fully. It doesn't look very good zoomed out. The filters are
Red: F160W
Yellow: F814W
Cyan: F475W
Blue: F336W
With that data you could toss the F160W and map the others to RGB and get something approaching a true color image (not perfect, but reasonable).
Seeing such an image would be very interesting.

Ann
Yep, already did that one here: https://geckzilla.prodibi.com/a/y8vmwyj ... go44eqq67x

Honestly just find the four filter version a little more interesting. The F814W filter works differently enough from "red" that it doesn't really look all that much like RGB. The dust is just that much more transparent to it. I could probably mix it down and make it look a lot closer to RGB, though, and then force some saturation back into it just like a "natural" color image that people crave. It still won't have pink hydrogen clouds, though. F814W just isn't right for that.

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Ann » Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:16 am

Chris Peterson wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:53 am
Ann wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:15 am I find it most unlikely that the infrared filter has detected Hα. Instead, it must have detected dust.
The IR band here is barely out of the visible. It doesn't show cool dust, but rather, part of the direct output of stars. At that longer wavelength, however, dust is somewhat more transparent, so we see deeper into dusty regions. In the near IR, dust is less apparent than in the visible range (but in both cases it is absorbing light, not emitting it).
You are absolutely right that the 814 nm filter would not detect cool gas. The ESA/Hubble and NASA picture at right shows that there are indeed cool (orange-looking) stars inside NGC 604 that emit a lot of infrared light, so you are also right about the fact that the infrared filter used for the Hubble picture of M33 must have detected starlight from cool stars.

However, given that the infrared filter detected infrared light from cool stars inside NGC 604, I must assume that the blue filter used for the Hubble picture of M33 did not just detect OIII from the ionized nebula of NGC 604, but also blue starlight from the large numbers of hot stars inside this giant site of star formation.

Ann

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Ann » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:51 am

Chris Peterson wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:25 pm
geckzilla wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:36 pm By the way, I've got a 4 filter version of this mosaic put together here: https://geckzilla.prodibi.com/a/y8vmwyj ... q12BEbA%3D
Note it's meant to be zoomed into fully. It doesn't look very good zoomed out. The filters are
Red: F160W
Yellow: F814W
Cyan: F475W
Blue: F336W
With that data you could toss the F160W and map the others to RGB and get something approaching a true color image (not perfect, but reasonable).
Seeing such an image would be very interesting.

Ann

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by shaileshs » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:50 am

BDanielMayfield wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:57 pm
shaileshs wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:20 am
shaileshs wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:54 am I checked the "zoom" tool.. what a view at 2nd most zoomed level.. stars are next to eachother as if they are sand grains on a beach.. I wonder what's the smallest distance between any 2 stars in the densest region.. and, will there be darkness on any planet in one of those star's solar system ? They might be seeing multiple stars in their sky - all time. No ?
Anyone can shed light (enlighten me) on my above query ? Thanks in advance!
I attempted to respond yesterday but my device's battery died just moments from hitting submit.

Since the rules of physics are universal star sizes, types, distribution, etc. would in general be the same over there as here in our galaxy shaileshs. Therefore the night skies on a planet like ours in the Triangulum galaxy would be much like ours. Stars only appear close together (except for close binary pairs which look like one star). Star systems are usually several or even a great number of light years apart.
Thank you for responding. I can understand and imagine.

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by shaileshs » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:48 am

Chris Peterson wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:11 pm
shaileshs wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:54 am I checked the "zoom" tool.. what a view at 2nd most zoomed level.. stars are next to eachother as if they are sand grains on a beach.. I wonder what's the smallest distance between any 2 stars in the densest region.. and, will there be darkness on any planet in one of those star's solar system ? They might be seeing multiple stars in their sky - all time. No ?
The stars themselves are unresolved, but the spaces between them are not. We see each point of a star as much, much larger than it actually is. That's what gives the "sand grains on a beach" appearance. In actuality, what we're seeing is a handful of sand grains sprinkled across a football field. Huge distances between the grains compared with their individual sizes.

We're looking here at the central bulge of a galaxy, where the stellar density is much higher than it is in the sparse section of the Milky Way where our own solar system resides. To a first order, the density in much of this image may be 100 times greater than what we have here around us. So yes, the sky will be brighter at night. But it will still get dark... imagine a sky similar to what we see during a full Moon.
Thank you Chris for responding. I can understand and imagine.

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:26 pm

geckzilla wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:32 pm What we're seeing in the near-infrared filter is a good and interesting question. Is it hydrogen? Hm. Emission detected through the F814W is a combination of both continuum and multiple emission lines from Paschen jumps and S [III]. https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1 ... 8/1/26/pdf
So, hydrogen for sure, maybe S [III] too.
True, but through broadband filters these are all going to be very dim compared with the continuum, which is the source of the overwhelming majority of the energy.

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:25 pm

geckzilla wrote: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:36 pm By the way, I've got a 4 filter version of this mosaic put together here: https://geckzilla.prodibi.com/a/y8vmwyj ... q12BEbA%3D
Note it's meant to be zoomed into fully. It doesn't look very good zoomed out. The filters are
Red: F160W
Yellow: F814W
Cyan: F475W
Blue: F336W
With that data you could toss the F160W and map the others to RGB and get something approaching a true color image (not perfect, but reasonable).

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by geckzilla » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:36 pm

By the way, I've got a 4 filter version of this mosaic put together here: https://geckzilla.prodibi.com/a/y8vmwyj ... q12BEbA%3D
Note it's meant to be zoomed into fully. It doesn't look very good zoomed out. The filters are
Red: F160W
Yellow: F814W
Cyan: F475W
Blue: F336W

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by geckzilla » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:32 pm

What we're seeing in the near-infrared filter is a good and interesting question. Is it hydrogen? Hm. Emission detected through the F814W is a combination of both continuum and multiple emission lines from Paschen jumps and [S III]. https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1 ... 8/1/26/pdf
So, hydrogen for sure, maybe [S III] too.

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:53 am

Ann wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:15 am I find it most unlikely that the infrared filter has detected Hα. Instead, it must have detected dust.
The IR band here is barely out of the visible. It doesn't show cool dust, but rather, part of the direct output of stars. At that longer wavelength, however, dust is somewhat more transparent, so we see deeper into dusty regions. In the near IR, dust is less apparent than in the visible range (but in both cases it is absorbing light, not emitting it).

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Ann » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:15 am

Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:47 pm
Ann wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:44 pm I see your point, Chris. I do.

But I don't think that the Hubble people will take your advice. Imagine them showing a galaxy picture where the IR channel has been mapped to green - maybe, say, an iconic galaxy like M51?
There is a logic to mapping the longest wavelength data channels to the longest wavelength output channels. But that does produce fairly natural looking colors (even though they are in no way accurate, nor intended to be) and therefore risks confusing people about what these objects actually look like. And what they actually look like is generally not on the list of science objectives at all.

Here's one more way of looking at the data, which is perhaps the most accurate of all. Eliminate the color mapping, and move the two channels into the time domain, alternating the IR and the visible.
_
unmapped.gif
Thanks, Chris! Absolutely fascinating! I somehow missed this post before.

Note how extremely different M33 looks in blue and infrared light. In infrared light, it looks almost amorphous, but in blue light it becomes much more spiral-like with sharp dust lanes, clusters and extended regions of young stars (think M24).

NGC 604 in X-rays and visible light.
X-ray: NASA / CXC / R. Tuellmann (Harvard-Smithsonian CfA) et al.;
Optical: NASA/AURA/STScI
Perhaps the most fascinating detail is how NGC 604, the huge emission nebula in M33, appears in the two images. It is quite large and striking in the blue-filter image. What has been detected by the blue filter is OIII emission, as Geck pointed out before.

But NGC 604 is indeed detected by the infrared filter, too. However, it looks small and faint there.

I find it most unlikely that the infrared filter has detected Hα. Instead, it must have detected dust.

Take a look at the picture of NGC 604 at right. The diffuse blue light is X-rays that have been mapped as blue. (The X-rays would not have been detected by either of the filters used for the Hubble image of M33.) The red and yellowish details in the picture at right is much cooler gas, but almost certainly also dust. This dust must have been warmed by the onslaught of energetic particles from the hot stars in NGC 604, and the warm dust is what the infrared filter must have detected.

Ann

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by MarkBour » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:16 am

This wandering discussion about colors and color mapping, and what people like in science is partly my fault, having kicked it off by totally misinterpreting the color of NGC 604 in an image.

I appreciate Ann's efforts to help me sort it out. It can be very confusing, looking at an APOD and trying to guess what you really should or should not conclude from the imagery.

A mote it is to trouble the mind's eye.

by neufer » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:52 pm

Ann wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:10 pm
I'm not uninterested in maths, physics and chemistry, as such. But when it comes to astronomy, I will eagerly read what astronomers have concluded, and why. And I will try to picture their methods in my mind. But when it comes to maths, physics and chemistry, the sort of science that can only be expressed in scientific formulas, my mind "dries up". Yes, I am interested in what those branches of science have concluded about the world and the universe that we live in. In particular, particle physics has a lot to do with our universe, so I try to understand a very, very little of it. But when I see mathematical formulas like these, I give up. I'll happily listen to what mathematicians can tell me about their formulas and what they mean, but I have not the slightest desire to sort of "dig in" and actually try to follow this sort of mathematical reasoning myself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_image wrote:
<<The notion of a "mind's eye" goes back at least to Cicero's [observation] that allusions to "the Syrtis of his patrimony" and "the Charybdis of his possessions" involved similes that were "too far-fetched"; and he advised the orator to, instead, just speak of "the rock" and "the gulf" (respectively)—on the grounds that "the eyes of the mind are more easily directed to those objects which we have seen, than to those which we have only heard". The concept of "the mind's eye" first appeared in English in Chaucer's (c. 1387) Man of Law's Tale in his Canterbury Tales, where he tells us that one of the three men dwelling in a castle was blind, and could only see with "the eyes of his mind"; namely, those eyes "with which all men see after they have become blind". The phrase remained rarely used and the OED incorrectly ascribes it to Shakespeare, as the first time the literally introspective phrase ‘the mind's eye’ is used in English was in Hamlet.>>

A peel of bananas (to us primates) in true blue color

by neufer » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:32 pm

Ann wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:52 pm
Science that contains no "color" or even "pictures", like mathematics, physics and chemistry, does not appeal to me, unfortunately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana wrote: <<Export bananas are picked green, and ripen in special rooms upon arrival in the destination country. These rooms are air-tight and filled with ethylene gas to induce ripening. The vivid yellow color consumers normally associate with supermarket bananas is, in fact, caused by the artificial ripening process.

Bananas can be ordered by the retailer "ungassed" (i.e. not treated with ethylene), and may show up at the supermarket fully green. A 2008 study reported that ripe bananas fluoresce when exposed to ultraviolet light. This property is attributed to the degradation of chlorophyll leading to the accumulation of a fluorescent product in the skin of the fruit. The chlorophyll breakdown product is stabilized by a propionate ester group. Banana-plant leaves also fluoresce in the same way. Green bananas do not fluoresce. The study suggested that this allows animals which can see light in the ultraviolet spectrum (tetrachromats and pentachromats) to more easily detect ripened bananas.>>
https://www.businessinsider.com/wild-monkeys-do-not-eat-bananas-2016-6 wrote:
Don't believe the myth about monkeys and bananas
Rebecca Harrington, Business Insider, Jun. 17, 2016

I'm not sure where the myth that monkeys eat bananas started — I personally suspect Curious George— but it's time for it to stop.

Wild monkeys don't eat them.

"The entire wild monkey-banana connection in fact is total fabrication," Katharine Milton, who has studied the diets of primates for decades, told Tech Insider. "The edible banana is a cultivated domesticated plant and fruit. Wild monkeys never encounter bananas at all ever unless they are around human habitation where bananas are or have been planted."

Monkeys do eat fruits, but they wouldn't encounter bananas like we could get at the grocery store in the forest. They also eat leaves, flowers, nuts, and insects in the wild. A zoo in England even decided to stop feeding its monkeys bananas, because they're too sugary. "Of course monkeys and apes are not stupid and relish eating them once they are exposed to them," Milton said. But they don't get bananas in the wild.>>

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Ann » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:10 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:58 pm
Ann wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:52 pm Science that contains no "color" or even "pictures", like mathematics, physics and chemistry, does not appeal to me, unfortunately.
That seems quite tragic to me.

Science is about knowledge, about understanding nature. That's its beauty. To appreciate the output of science when it produces something visually aesthetic is perfectly understandable (and is the reason that we have aesthetic imaging contests within different scientific disciplines). But to lack interest in important areas of science, of fundamental understanding, simply because they produce no color or imagery? That's just sad.
You misunderstand me, because I didn't choose my words correctly.

I'm not uninterested in maths, physics and chemistry, as such. But when it comes to astronomy, I will eagerly read what astronomers have concluded, and why. And I will try to picture their methods in my mind. But when it comes to maths, physics and chemistry, the sort of science that can only be expressed in scientific formulas, my mind "dries up". Yes, I am interested in what those branches of science have concluded about the world and the universe that we live in. In particular, particle physics has a lot to do with our universe, so I try to understand a very, very little of it.

But when I see mathematical formulas like these, I give up. I'll happily listen to what mathematicians can tell me about their formulas and what they mean, but I have not the slightest desire to sort of "dig in" and actually try to follow this sort of mathematical reasoning myself.

Ann

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:58 pm

Ann wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:52 pm Science that contains no "color" or even "pictures", like mathematics, physics and chemistry, does not appeal to me, unfortunately.
That seems quite tragic to me.

Science is about knowledge, about understanding nature. That's its beauty. To appreciate the output of science when it produces something visually aesthetic is perfectly understandable (and is the reason that we have aesthetic imaging contests within different scientific disciplines). But to lack interest in important areas of science, of fundamental understanding, simply because they produce no color or imagery? That's just sad.

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Ann » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:52 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:47 pm
Ann wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:44 pm I see your point, Chris. I do.

But I don't think that the Hubble people will take your advice. Imagine them showing a galaxy picture where the IR channel has been mapped to green - maybe, say, an iconic galaxy like M51?
There is a logic to mapping the longest wavelength data channels to the longest wavelength output channels. But that does produce fairly natural looking colors (even though they are in no way accurate, nor intended to be) and therefore risks confusing people about what these objects actually look like. And what they actually look like is generally not on the list of science objectives at all.
I know. My own interest in astronomy is both about aesthetics and science. I think that astronomy at its best is stunningly beautiful as well as fantastically intriguing and "revealing".

Science that contains no "color" or even "pictures", like mathematics, physics and chemistry, does not appeal to me, unfortunately.

Ann

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:47 pm

Ann wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:44 pm I see your point, Chris. I do.

But I don't think that the Hubble people will take your advice. Imagine them showing a galaxy picture where the IR channel has been mapped to green - maybe, say, an iconic galaxy like M51?
There is a logic to mapping the longest wavelength data channels to the longest wavelength output channels. But that does produce fairly natural looking colors (even though they are in no way accurate, nor intended to be) and therefore risks confusing people about what these objects actually look like. And what they actually look like is generally not on the list of science objectives at all.

Here's one more way of looking at the data, which is perhaps the most accurate of all. Eliminate the color mapping, and move the two channels into the time domain, alternating the IR and the visible.
_
unmapped.gif

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Ann » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:44 pm

I see your point, Chris. I do.

But I don't think that the Hubble people will take your advice. Imagine them showing a galaxy picture where the IR channel has been mapped to green - maybe, say, an iconic galaxy like M51?

Ann

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:39 pm

Ann wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:26 pm
Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:22 pm Just for fun, here's the same image presented with two different color mappings, one which assigns red to the IR data (the original) and one which assigns blue to the IR data. (Both split green between the IR and visible.) Is one "better" than the other? I wouldn't say so.
_
two-mappings.gif
If you ask me, it would pretty horrible to assign blue to the IR channel (and red to the blue channel?). Talk about doing one's very best to "disrespect true color"!
That makes no sense to me. There is no "true color" present in the source data. Any image which is mapped in such a way that it might be confused as such is arguably poor. The mapping is about presenting data, much of it outside our visual range, in a way that enables our brains to extract useful information. It isn't about "true color". It isn't about aesthetics. Perhaps a better choice would be to map the IR to green, the visible to blue, and to split the two in the red channel. The important information still seems to be evident, but there's no risk of falling into any "true color" interpretation trap.
_
heic1901aTriangulum_1200_map3.jpg

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Ann » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:26 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:22 pm Just for fun, here's the same image presented with two different color mappings, one which assigns red to the IR data (the original) and one which assigns blue to the IR data. (Both split green between the IR and visible.) Is one "better" than the other? I wouldn't say so.
_
two-mappings.gif
If you ask me, it would pretty horrible to assign blue to the IR channel (and red to the blue channel?). Talk about doing one's very best to "disrespect true color"!

In any case, I have written to Hubblesite and asked them several questions about their picture of M33. If they answer, I will share their answers here.

Ann

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:22 pm

Just for fun, here's the same image presented with two different color mappings, one which assigns red to the IR data (the original) and one which assigns blue to the IR data. (Both split green between the IR and visible.) Is one "better" than the other? I wouldn't say so.
_
two-mappings.gif

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by geckzilla » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:13 pm

I edited it because I was explaining something you already understood, but I didn't catch it in my first read through of your post. H-alpha is not being shown at all, which is correct. The F475W filter overlaps with [O III] emission, which is part of the reason it was used. So most of the emission we're seeing here is probably from [O III].

And I *know* you realize this, which is why it bothers me so much that you're always grinding your ax against anything that doesn't meet your particular standards of beauty.

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by Ann » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:24 pm

geckzilla wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:28 pm
this image is not falsely colored. it is simply translated into colors your eyes can see.
You edited your post? You no longer agree that the filters used for this APOD don't detect Hα?

You are saying that the filters may indeed have detected Hα, but the Hα was shown as blue, for unspecified reasons? :(

And, hey. I do realize that there is a world of wavelengths outside of what the human eye can see, and I do understand that a wealth of information can be gained from detecting those non-visual wavelengths. And I do realize that non-visual wavelengths have to be shown in mapped color for us to see pictures of them in the first place.

I'm just saying that a wideband blue filter centered at 475 nm does detect light that the human eye can see. And... okay, I'll shut up now.

Ann

Re: APOD: The Stars of the Triangulum Galaxy (2019 Feb 23)

by geckzilla » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:46 pm

I am just super duper annoyed at the constant "this isn't right because it's not how human eyes see it or how [favorite astrophotographer] makes image"

Almost everything interesting happens outside of the narrow band of wavelengths the human eye is sensitive to. It's so fundamental and so important to get out of the tiny cage that human perception puts us in.

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