by Ann » Thu May 10, 2018 6:29 am
Chris Peterson wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 4:14 am
carlscheske wrote: ↑Thu May 10, 2018 1:39 am
Hi Chris
I am new to this site and having difficulty in trying to reply.
I am not talking about distance. I am talking about the time the Universe has been expanding. The Earth is supposedly 13.8 years (time wise) from the Big Bang. Our observable universe is a sphere with a radius of 13.8 Billion years around the Earth. The Big Bang is on the circumference of that sphere.
If you were located on the circumference of that sphere (that is, 43 billion light years from Earth), you'd see yourself in the center of a sphere, with the light from the Big Bang at the outer edges of your own observable universe, 43 billion light years, 13.8 billion light travel years, away.
As Chris has pointed out before, if the Universe is depicted as a round disk at all (as in the APOD), then the Big Bang should not be at the circumference, but at the center. Because the Universe has been expanding outwards for as long as it has existed.
So are we "at the edge", then? And why can't we see the edge, if we are close to it?
Where is the edge of the Earth?
Sorry, it has none.
Again, as Chris (and others) have pointed out, the Universe has no edge, certainly not an edge in three dimensions. The Universe is a four-dimensional volume of some sort, and this volume can have no edge in three dimensions, any more than a three-dimensional volume like the Earth can have an edge in two dimensions.
Think of it like this. On the Earth, if you live in the Himalayas, you will se mountains all around you. And if you had some neighbors not too far from you in different directions, they would also see mountains all around them.
If you lived in the Sahara desert, and the Sahara desert was dotted with tiny oases, and a tiny settlement of people lived at every such oasis, then every settlement at (almost) every oasis would see themselves being surrounded by a huge expanse of sand dotted with little patches of green where other people lived.
When do we come to the next village?
My point is that if your "neighborhood" mostly looks the same in every direction, and if it is sufficiently large, and if you are unable to travel beyond it, you won't be able to see beyond it. You will most likely feel that you are at the center of your very own world, which looks much the same to you in every direction.
The Hubble Ultra Deep Field.NASA, ESA, H.Teplitz and M.Rafelski (IPAC/Caltech),
A. Koekemoer (STScI), R. Windhorst(ASU), Z. Levay (STScI)
Consider the Hubble Ultra Deep Field, which shows us galaxies at different distances from us. Some of the galaxies look relatively large, and they are the ones that are the closest to us (although they are still very far away). Astronomers looking out from these galaxies will see other galaxies not too far from their own, and at least many of these nearby galaxies will be broadly similar to the galaxy they inhabit themselves.
Other galaxies in the picture are much smaller and much, much farther away. But they, too, are "encapsulated" in their own "bubble" in time and space. So
If there are astronomers in them, so close to the earliest epochs of the Universe, who are studying their own galactic neighborhood, they, too, will see numerous galaxies in every direction that are broadly similar to the one they live in.
And if these astronomers "far, far away in time and space in our 4D spacetime" are unable to study the appearance of their own galaxy, then at least they might be able to see that most nearby galaxies appear to have similar sizes, morphologies and colors. So far away, most galaxies would be small, blue and intensely starforming.
Yup... it's the same all over.
Photo: David M. Doody.
The way I understand it, at almost every epoch of the Universe (with the exception of the earliest epochs) there were large galactic "neighborhoods" that looked broadly similar "all over". When the Universe was much younger than today, it is perhaps unlikely that there existed any astronomers or observers of any kind that were able to contemplate the cosmos that they lived in. But if there had been any such observers with the capability of turning powerful telescopes onto the deep sky above them, they too would see a skyscape that looked much the same in every direction.
That is why we have every reason to believe that most observers in most galaxies that have ever existed might easily conclude that they themselves are at the center of the Universe, because the Universe really looks the same all around them.
Ann
[quote="Chris Peterson" post_id=282275 time=1525925691 user_id=117706]
[quote=carlscheske post_id=282272 time=1525916390 user_id=144342]
Hi Chris
I am new to this site and having difficulty in trying to reply.
I am not talking about distance. I am talking about the time the Universe has been expanding. The Earth is supposedly 13.8 years (time wise) from the Big Bang. Our observable universe is a sphere with a radius of 13.8 Billion years around the Earth. The Big Bang is on the circumference of that sphere.
[/quote]
If you were located on the circumference of that sphere (that is, 43 billion light years from Earth), you'd see yourself in the center of a sphere, with the light from the Big Bang at the outer edges of your own observable universe, 43 billion light years, 13.8 billion light travel years, away.
[/quote]
As Chris has pointed out before, if the Universe is depicted as a round disk at all (as in the APOD), then the Big Bang should not be at the circumference, but at the center. Because the Universe has been expanding outwards for as long as it has existed.
So are we "at the edge", then? And why can't we see the edge, if we are close to it?
[float=left][img2]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b8/28/08/b8280870dd619bd08d948a7ff443ac46.jpg[/img2][c][size=85]Where is the edge of the Earth?
Sorry, it has none.[/size][/c][/float]
Again, as Chris (and others) have pointed out, the Universe has no edge, certainly not an edge in three dimensions. The Universe is a four-dimensional volume of some sort, and this volume can have no edge in three dimensions, any more than a three-dimensional volume like the Earth can have an edge in two dimensions.
Think of it like this. On the Earth, if you live in the Himalayas, you will se mountains all around you. And if you had some neighbors not too far from you in different directions, they would also see mountains all around them.
If you lived in the Sahara desert, and the Sahara desert was dotted with tiny oases, and a tiny settlement of people lived at every such oasis, then every settlement at (almost) every oasis would see themselves being surrounded by a huge expanse of sand dotted with little patches of green where other people lived.
[float=right][img2]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d5/cf/74/d5cf746f5e75d5c8371561fb610a5f8c.jpg[/img2][c][size=85]When do we come to the next village?[/size][/c][/float]
My point is that if your "neighborhood" mostly looks the same in every direction, and if it is sufficiently large, and if you are unable to travel beyond it, you won't be able to see beyond it. You will most likely feel that you are at the center of your very own world, which looks much the same to you in every direction.
[float=left][img2]https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/1406/hud2014_1000c.jpg[/img2][c][size=85]The Hubble Ultra Deep Field.NASA, ESA, H.Teplitz and M.Rafelski (IPAC/Caltech),
A. Koekemoer (STScI), R. Windhorst(ASU), Z. Levay (STScI)[/size][/c][/float]
Consider the Hubble Ultra Deep Field, which shows us galaxies at different distances from us. Some of the galaxies look relatively large, and they are the ones that are the closest to us (although they are still very far away). Astronomers looking out from these galaxies will see other galaxies not too far from their own, and at least many of these nearby galaxies will be broadly similar to the galaxy they inhabit themselves.
Other galaxies in the picture are much smaller and much, much farther away. But they, too, are "encapsulated" in their own "bubble" in time and space. So [b][i]If[/i][/b] there are astronomers in them, so close to the earliest epochs of the Universe, who are studying their own galactic neighborhood, they, too, will see numerous galaxies in every direction that are broadly similar to the one they live in.
And if these astronomers "far, far away in time and space in our 4D spacetime" are unable to study the appearance of their own galaxy, then at least they might be able to see that most nearby galaxies appear to have similar sizes, morphologies and colors. So far away, most galaxies would be small, blue and intensely starforming.
[float=right][img2]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/62/ba/4a/62ba4a72b39f6ce47c8be6e5054cace6.jpg[/img2][c][size=85]Yup... it's the same all over.
Photo: David M. Doody.[/size][/c][/float]
The way I understand it, at almost every epoch of the Universe (with the exception of the earliest epochs) there were large galactic "neighborhoods" that looked broadly similar "all over". When the Universe was much younger than today, it is perhaps unlikely that there existed any astronomers or observers of any kind that were able to contemplate the cosmos that they lived in. But if there had been any such observers with the capability of turning powerful telescopes onto the deep sky above them, they too would see a skyscape that looked much the same in every direction.
That is why we have every reason to believe that most observers in most galaxies that have ever existed might easily conclude that they themselves are at the center of the Universe, because the Universe really looks the same all around them.
Ann