APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:53 pm

Cousin Ricky wrote:
heehaw wrote:Clouds OF Andromeda is not wrong, it is perfect! The wrong nomenclature is "the Andromeda galaxy:" it should be "the galaxy far beyond Andromeda."
Is there a rule that Andromeda is confined to the Milky Way Galaxy?
In fact, Andromeda, like all the constellations, extends to infinity.

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by Cousin Ricky » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:38 pm

heehaw wrote:Clouds OF Andromeda is not wrong, it is perfect! The wrong nomenclature is "the Andromeda galaxy:" it should be "the galaxy far beyond Andromeda."
Is there a rule that Andromeda is confined to the Milky Way Galaxy?

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by neufer » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:21 pm

Martin wrote:
Is there an explanation for how ionized hydrogen clouds can be found so far from the galactic plane? Thanks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_II_region wrote:
<<An H II region or HII region is a region of interstellar atomic hydrogen that is ionized. It is typically a cloud of partially ionized gas in which star formation has recently taken place, with a size ranging from one to hundreds of light years, and density from a few to about a million particles per cubic cm. The Orion Nebula, now known to be an H II region, was observed in 1610 by Nicolas-Claude Fabri de Peiresc by telescope, the first such object discovered.

They may be of any shape, because the distribution of the stars and gas inside them is irregular. The short-lived blue stars created in these regions emit copious amounts of ultraviolet light that ionize the surrounding gas. H II regions—sometimes several hundred light-years across—are often associated with giant molecular clouds. They often appear clumpy and filamentary, sometimes showing bizarre shapes such as the Horsehead Nebula. H II regions may give birth to thousands of stars over a period of several million years. In the end, supernova explosions and strong stellar winds from the most massive stars in the resulting star cluster will disperse the gases of the H II region, leaving behind a cluster of stars which have formed, such as the Pleiades.

H II regions can be observed at considerable distances in the universe, and the study of extragalactic H II regions is important in determining the distance and chemical composition of galaxies. Spiral and irregular galaxies contain many H II regions, while elliptical galaxies are almost devoid of them. In spiral galaxies, including our Milky Way, H II regions are concentrated in the spiral arms, while in irregular galaxies they are distributed chaotically. Some galaxies contain huge H II regions, which may contain tens of thousands of stars. Examples include the 30 Doradus region in the Large Magellanic Cloud and NGC 604 in the Triangulum Galaxy.>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_cloud wrote: <<A molecular cloud, sometimes called a stellar nursery (if star formation is occurring within), is a type of interstellar cloud, the density and size of which permit the formation of molecules, most commonly molecular hydrogen (H2). This is in contrast to other areas of the interstellar medium that contain predominantly ionized gas.

Molecular hydrogen is difficult to detect by infrared and radio observations, so the molecule most often used to determine the presence of H2 is carbon monoxide (CO). The ratio between CO luminosity and H2 mass is thought to be constant, although there are reasons to doubt this assumption in observations of some other galaxies.

Within molecular clouds are regions with higher density, where lots of dust and gas cores reside, called clumps. These clumps are the beginning of star formation, if gravity can overcome the high density and force the dust and gas to collapse.>>

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by Martin » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:04 am

Is there an explanation for how ionized hydrogen clouds can be found so far from the galactic plane? Thanks

Mark "seemingly tangled in the dust"

by neufer » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:11 pm

MarkBour wrote:
I guess what threw me was Art's: '... "scattered hundreds of light-years" above Andromeda's arms'.
At this distance, hundreds of light years only amounts to what, a pixel? Always, my intuition leads me astray.

But then, bringing the discussion back to the debate about the title, assuming Art is correct, then this really is an image of the clouds of Andromeda, in the sense that others have said it was not.
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap151012.html wrote:
<<The galaxy seemingly tangled in the dust is the striking spiral galaxy NGC 7497 some 60 million light-years away. Seen almost edge-on near the center of the field, NGC 7497's own spiral arms and dust lanes echo the colors of the Milky Way's stars and dust. >>

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by MarkBour » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:02 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:
MarkBour wrote:
neufer wrote: You don't see a red spiral :?:
Now I'm pretty sure you're having fun with me. So instead of trying to see what you're talking about, I'm trying to remember who said what. But, alas, I get it not.
Try looking for red inside "the great galaxy in Andromeda" instead of around it.
Thank you, Bruce. Art, is this what you meant?
I guess what threw me was Art's: '... "scattered hundreds of light-years" above Andromeda's arms'.
At this distance, hundreds of light years only amounts to what, a pixel? Always, my intuition leads me astray.
I'm really only responding at this point because I may not have been the only one thrown off by that.

But then, bringing the discussion back to the debate about the title, assuming Art is correct, then this really is an image of the clouds of Andromeda, in the sense that others have said it was not.

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by Ann » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:08 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:
Ann wrote:Those are red rings! Not spirals!

Ann
I would say they share both appearances Ann. A temporary ringlike shape (ripples from a collision) imposed upon the underlying spiral form. How's that?

Bruce
Fine with me, Bruce! :D I just wanted to join in the gentle teasing, started by Art! (Would you know, by the way, that I really tried to give that blue link a red color? :lol2:

Ann

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by BDanielMayfield » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:57 am

Ann wrote:Those are red rings! Not spirals!

Ann
I would say they share both appearances Ann. A temporary ringlike shape (ripples from a collision) imposed upon the underlying spiral form. How's that?

Bruce

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by BDanielMayfield » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:34 am

Ann wrote:
heehaw wrote:
BDanielMayfield wrote:A very APOD worthy photo. I wondered though about it being called "The Clouds of Andromeda", when the red clouds that dominate the view aren't part of Andromeda at all. At least this important point is made clear in the Explanation.

Come to think of it though, I'm having a hard time thinking of a better title though, given the desire for titles to be short and attention grabbing...
Clouds OF Andromeda is not wrong, it is perfect! The wrong nomenclature is "the Andromeda galaxy:" it should be "the galaxy far beyond Andromeda."
Good points, both of you!
Thanks Ann.
I have to wonder how common such thin ionized high-altitude cirrus clouds may be in and around spiral galaxies. Maybe they are quite common? Is it possible that Andromeda herself has such clouds, but we have yet to detect them?
I would think that such thin gas clouds riding high above the disks of spirals would have to be extremely common Ann. Think of all the combined stellar winds from bright and more numerous lesser stars of the disk working together to counteract gravitational attraction back toward the disk. They would have to be extremely hard to detect in other galaxies I would think though. But since they are here, and our galaxy is typical ...

Bruce

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by Ann » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:23 am

Those are red rings! Not spirals!

Ann

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by BDanielMayfield » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:02 am

MarkBour wrote:
neufer wrote:
MarkBour wrote: Art, I'm quite curious as to what you're talking about, but cannot say that I see it in the image.
You don't see a red spiral :?:
Now I'm pretty sure you're having fun with me. So instead of trying to see what you're talking about, I'm trying to remember who said what. But, alas, I get it not.
Try looking for red inside "the great galaxy in Andromeda" instead of around it.

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by MarkBour » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:46 am

neufer wrote:
MarkBour wrote:
neufer wrote:
  • Isn't that exactly what that red spiral is "scattered hundreds of light-years" above Andromeda's arms :?:
Art, I'm quite curious as to what you're talking about, but cannot say that I see it in the image.
You don't see a red spiral :?:
Now I'm pretty sure you're having fun with me. So instead of trying to see what you're talking about, I'm trying to remember who said what. But, alas, I get it not.
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by robgendler@att.net » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:49 pm

Just an image processing comment. A striking image however the author could have done a better job removing the red hue from all the foreground stars.

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by rstevenson » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:36 pm

RBANDREO wrote:So the main debate here is about the title? No one complained about the "Planets on the Wing" APOD the other day - I surely did not see any planets on that wing!! :ssmile:

Anyway, adding to the discussion, last year, when I produced my image of M31 with these red clouds, I named the image "Clouds of Andromeda", mostly because I've been following that nomenclature with a number of images I've released in the last few years: Clouds of Orion, Taurus, Perseus, Aries... so the name for the M31 image popped up intuitively, not much creative effort on my side. After all, like BDanielMayfield said above earlier, it's a very suitable name despite the clouds aren't really in or even around Andromeda. In any case, APOD titles tend to be on the creative side (I personally like that), with the good stuff later in the text.

Cheers,
Rogelio
It's a perfectly good title Rogelio. I was just having a bit of fun with it. And I find the addition of the Hα clouds, something that most alphaphotographers try to avoid judging from my collection of Andromeda images, is both startlingly fresh and informative. Good one!

Rob

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by stevewiggins » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:12 pm

M31 is one of my favorite naked eye sights. To get an idea of its 'apparent' distance I'll count off 20 lengths of our own galaxy, getting smaller and smaller with depth perception. Fortunately the 'cirrus' clouds don't get in the way.

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by neufer » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:47 pm

MarkBour wrote:
neufer wrote:
Ann wrote:
I have to wonder how common such thin ionized high-altitude cirrus clouds may be in and around spiral galaxies. Maybe they are quite common? Is it possible that Andromeda herself has such clouds, but we have yet to detect them?
  • Isn't that exactly what that red spiral is "scattered hundreds of light-years" above Andromeda's arms :?:
Art, I'm quite curious as to what you're talking about, but cannot say that I see it in the image.
You don't see a red spiral :?:

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by MarkBour » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:23 pm

neufer wrote:
Ann wrote: I have to wonder how common such thin ionized high-altitude cirrus clouds may be in and around spiral galaxies. Maybe they are quite common? Is it possible that Andromeda herself has such clouds, but we have yet to detect them?
  • Isn't that exactly what that red spiral is "scattered hundreds of light-years" above Andromeda's arms :?:
Art, I'm quite curious as to what you're talking about, but cannot say that I see it in the image. (Or are you referring to another APOD, or link?)

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:20 pm

RBANDREO wrote:In any case, APOD titles tend to be on the creative side (I personally like that), with the good stuff later in the text.
I agree. But some people seem to dislike any sort of metaphor mixed in with science. Just look what happens anytime an APOD caption uses "Island Universe"!

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by neufer » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:05 pm

Ann wrote:
I have to wonder how common such thin ionized high-altitude cirrus clouds may be in and around spiral galaxies. Maybe they are quite common? Is it possible that Andromeda herself has such clouds, but we have yet to detect them?
  • Isn't that exactly what that red spiral is "scattered hundreds of light-years" above Andromeda's arms :?:

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by RBANDREO » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:48 pm

So the main debate here is about the title? No one complained about the "Planets on the Wing" APOD the other day - I surely did not see any planets on that wing!! :ssmile:

Anyway, adding to the discussion, last year, when I produced my image of M31 with these red clouds, I named the image "Clouds of Andromeda", mostly because I've been following that nomenclature with a number of images I've released in the last few years: Clouds of Orion, Taurus, Perseus, Aries... so the name for the M31 image popped up intuitively, not much creative effort on my side. After all, like BDanielMayfield said above earlier, it's a very suitable name despite the clouds aren't really in or even around Andromeda. In any case, APOD titles tend to be on the creative side (I personally like that), with the good stuff later in the text.

Cheers,
Rogelio

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by sillyworm2 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:38 pm

Beautiful!

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:10 pm

rstevenson wrote:Errmmm... If I took a picture of the Big Dipper with some thin clouds scudding through the sky above me, would I title the picture The Clouds of The Big Dipper? I've never met-a-phor that stretched that far.
If I took such a picture and was thinking of a title, I'd probably go with Clouds in the Big Dipper.

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by Case » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:09 pm

The Hα is much more emphasized, compared to last year’s image by Mr Andreo, which was then one of the best available at that angular size and next to a familiar object. What strides we have made!
APOD Robot wrote:These ionized hydrogen clouds surely lie in the foreground of the scene, well within our Milky Way Galaxy. They are likely associated with the pervasive, dusty interstellar cirrus clouds scattered hundreds of light-years above our own galactic plane.
Glowing ionized gas, instead of ‘regular’ reflecting dust (IFN), that is pretty special too, at the low densities I expect there.

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:08 pm

heehaw wrote:
BDanielMayfield wrote:A very APOD worthy photo. I wondered though about it being called "The Clouds of Andromeda", when the red clouds that dominate the view aren't part of Andromeda at all. At least this important point is made clear in the Explanation.

Come to think of it though, I'm having a hard time thinking of a better title though, given the desire for titles to be short and attention grabbing...
Clouds OF Andromeda is not wrong, it is perfect! The wrong nomenclature is "the Andromeda galaxy:" it should be "the galaxy far beyond Andromeda."
Indeed. In fact, "Andromeda Galaxy" is fairly recent usage. I look back in my old astronomy texts, and it was always called "The Great Galaxy in Andromeda".

Re: APOD: Clouds of Andromeda (2018 Jan 08)

by rstevenson » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:00 pm

Errmmm... If I took a picture of the Big Dipper with some thin clouds scudding through the sky above me, would I title the picture The Clouds of The Big Dipper? I've never met-a-phor that stretched that far. :mrgreen:

Rob

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