APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by Ann » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:46 pm

My impression is that the "carbon phase" of a low-to-intermediate mass star is brief. That might explain why we haven't detected any in any known globular cluster.

Ann

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by BDanielMayfield » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:42 pm

Thanks Art.

Chocking on one's own crud is bad, but chocking on second hand crud is worse. Yuck.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by neufer » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:31 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:
BDanielMayfield wrote:
Wouldn't you think though, that in this set of 100,000+ geriatric gems there would be at least a few fat, wheezing old gezzers [sic] choking on their own crud? (No offense intended.) :wink:
The question and point I was trying to make was that given the age of this globular, shouldn't it be expected to contain carbon stars, and that the way the data was presented might reveal or conseal [sic] that fact.
  • There might be a few fat, wheezing old geezers choking on their neighbor's crud:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_star wrote:
<<The non-classical [halo population II] kinds of carbon stars, belonging to the types C-J and C-H, are believed to be binary stars, where one star is observed to be a giant star (or occasionally a red dwarf) and the other a white dwarf. The star presently observed to be a giant star accreted carbon-rich material when it was still a main-sequence star from its companion (that is, the star that is now the white dwarf) when the latter was still a classical carbon star. That phase of stellar evolution is relatively brief, and most such stars ultimately end up as white dwarfs. We are now seeing these systems a comparatively long time after the mass transfer event, so the extra carbon observed in the present red giant was not produced within that star. This scenario is also accepted as the origin of the barium stars, which are also characterized as having strong spectral features of carbon molecules and of barium (an s-process element). Sometimes the stars whose excess carbon came from this mass transfer are called "extrinsic" carbon stars to distinguish them from the "intrinsic" AGB stars which produce the carbon internally. Many of these extrinsic carbon stars are not luminous or cool enough to have made their own carbon, which was a puzzle until their binary nature was discovered.>>

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by BDanielMayfield » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:33 pm

neufer wrote:
BDanielMayfield wrote:
neufer wrote:
... our eyes are just more sensitive to blue light.

One needs carbon to scatter the blue light
in order to really appreciate a red star:

http://oneminuteastronomer.com/1206/vampire-star/
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observin ... 203201401/
Nice points Art. Wouldn't you think though, that in this set of 100,000+ geriatric gems there would be at least a few fat, wheezing old gezzers choking on their own crud? (No offense intended.) :wink:

https://emojipedia.org/face-with-one-eyebrow-raised/ wrote:
Colbert emoji: A face with a neutral mouth and single eyebrow raised.
May be used to denote scepticism, disbelief, or disapproval.
Has been likened to the quizzical looks of Stephen Colbert.
Your disapproval of that comment is warranted, I'm sorry my attempt at crass humor misfired. For the record, I was referring to carbon stars, not to you.

The question and point I was trying to make was that given the age of this globular, shouldn't it be expected to contain carbon stars, and that the way the data was presented might reveal or conseal that fact.

Bruce

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by heehaw » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:31 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
heehaw wrote:
BDanielMayfield wrote: How much of your personal mass is dark matter? Astronomically, how much of the Earth, Sun, etc. is dark matter?

Dark matter just ain't into us baryonic things. The attraction isn't mutual.

Bruce
Thanks, Bruce, but all galaxies, including small ones (indeed, especially small ones) DO contain dark matter. But I have the impression that NO globular cluster does, and I've never read any speculation anywhere as to why that is. It does seem to me to be a very peculiar mystery.
There are globular clusters which are suspected to contain small amounts of dark matter (<10% of the mass), and there are globular clusters around other galaxies which appear to have high dark matter content. Whether this difference from the local globulars (that appear to have little or no dark matter) represents a difference in formation history or is a consequence of evolution (such as stripping by galactic tides) remains an area of study.
Yes, I seem to recall you making that good point some time ago. The bullet cluster apparently is ambiguous, clean as it appears to be. Would passage through the Galactic plane clear out the dark matter? It does not seem to have done so for any globulars in our galaxy, unless they have ALL been through the plane, which I suppose may be the case. We need every clue we can get re the nature of the dark matter: the biggest mystery not just in astrophysics but in physics itself.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by geckzilla » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:34 pm

Eh, I thought it was pretty well separated, myself. The nucleus is pretty diffuse, though. Seems to me it's been mixed up a bit.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by Ann » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:13 pm

geckzilla wrote:
Ann wrote:I am, however, surprised that so many globulars don't show up as more than orange smudges through near UV filters.
Some of the bluer ones could be globular clusters. That was just an image I put together quickly for fun. The orange ones I had to double-check for catalog entries to see what they were because I wasn't entirely sure, so that's why I know they're globulars.


Just for fun, here are a couple of images of NGC 1559 that are pretty close to visible light, without any massaging of the data to pull apart / saturate the colors. These may at first appear to be black and white images. We're so used to having the colors super-saturated that a lot of people don't realize it's happening.

This is an orange, green, and blue image. Very close to RGB
NGC1559_OGB.jpg
Very interesting, Geck, but I'm not surprised. In my opinion, NGC 1559 is a galaxy whose colors are not strongly "separated".

The arms of NGC 1559 are bright with young stars. There is a mixture there of bright blue stars, bright red giants and red hydrogen clouds. Even though the dominant color is blue, the hue is diluted and pale.

As for the center of NGC 1559, it is interestingly faint. This galaxy doesn't have a bright old yellow bulge by any means. Most likely, the bulge still contains some young stars which will dilute the yellow color of the bulge.

Or, to put it differently: NGC 1559 is quite "similarly bright all over", and it likely contains stars of all colors in most places. No wonder it looks pale!

Most spiral galaxies are certainly very, very pale, but probably not quite so relatively monocolored as NGC 1559.

As for myself, I will never forget the very first time I saw the Andromeda galaxy. I had no idea what to expect, when suddenly a diffuse patch of soft yellowness slowly inched into my binocular field. I will always associate Andromeda with that incredible, soft yellowness in the sky.

My software Guide quotes Steve Coe when he described what M33 looked like on a night of perfect seeing:
I can see the difference between Population I and Population II areas in the galaxy. The stars in the core form a smooth surface to the central section that is light yellow, whereas the arms are splotchy and bluish.
I do believe it is possible to see these things, but you need good color vision and dark, clear skies.

Ann

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by geckzilla » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:21 pm

Ann wrote:I am, however, surprised that so many globulars don't show up as more than orange smudges through near UV filters.
Some of the bluer ones could be globular clusters. That was just an image I put together quickly for fun. The orange ones I had to double-check for catalog entries to see what they were because I wasn't entirely sure, so that's why I know they're globulars.


Just for fun, here are a couple of images of NGC 1559 that are pretty close to visible light, without any massaging of the data to pull apart / saturate the colors. These may at first appear to be black and white images. We're so used to having the colors super-saturated that a lot of people don't realize it's happening.

This is an orange, green, and blue image. Very close to RGB
F606W, F555W, F438W
F606W, F555W, F438W
This one includes near-infrared and near-ultraviolet.
F814W+F606W, F555W, F438W+F336W
F814W+F606W, F555W, F438W+F336W
The final image with some saturation adjustments can be viewed over at Flickr. https://flic.kr/p/212v1P9

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by Ann » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:08 pm

geckzilla wrote:
NoelC wrote:This is a false color image where the blue channel was indeed photographed through a blue filter, but the green channel is really red data and the red channel is infrared data.

Photography specifics here: https://www.spacetelescope.org/images/potw1118a/

Also, the Hubble itself was apparently rotated when shooting the infrared data (shown as the red channel) as compared to the blue and red data (shown as blue and green channels) since we can see that the red diffraction spikes don't align with the blue and green ones. Some elbow grease could correct that by removing the optical spikes, or by removing just the red ones and regenerating equivalent spikes with the same rotation as the blue/green channels.

Lastly, the three color channels are not very well aligned with one another, as you can see red/cyan fringes on virtually every star.
It would make very little difference if the red channel was a real red or the near-infrared channel that was used in this case. That only makes a big difference for galaxies, where an image like this would have green ionized hydrogen clouds instead of the preferable pinkish ones, and more background galaxies would be revealed. In this case, the infrared actually helps separate the colors more. If you wanted the globular to become very red, then you would have to include some near-UV data for the blue channel. That would turn the entire globular yellow, and then the most yellowish stars would become red.

As a side note of possible interest, here* are some clusters I picked out from a near-uv / visible blue image of the Triangulum galaxy. Note the distinct difference between a globular cluster and the young ones. The globulars nearly became invisible!
https://twitter.com/SpaceGeck/status/925233406455070723
Very interesting, Geck!

I am, however, surprised that so many globulars don't show up as more than orange smudges through near UV filters. A globular like M5 contains a healthy population of blue horizontal stars. I'm too laze to check up the typical spectral classes of blue horizontal stars, but I'd say that most of them belong to spectral class B8 or so. In other words, they are generally B-class stars, whose energy output peaks in the ultraviolet part of the spectrum. Surely such stars would stand out like sore thumbs through a near UV filter?

Other globulars, like for example 47 Tuc, don't contain any blue horizontal stars at all (though they do contain som blue straggler stars, which do not necessarily belong to spectral class B), and I can easily imagine that such globulars only look like orange smudges through near UV filters.
I quite agree that the use of a UV filter instead of a blue one will make star clusters and galaxies look redder. A good example is the Hubble picture of blue starburst galaxy NGC 4214. The filters used for this image are F225W (UV), F336W (UV), F438 W (indigo), F487N (a narrowband filter that will detect shortwave nebular emission), F502N ([O III]), F547M (y), F657N (H-alpha+[N II]), and F814W (I). In the finished image, the only the stars strongly detected through the UV and indigo filters are shown as blue. By contrast, the underlying population of old red (make that yellow) stars are strongly detected through the infrared filter, much more strongly than they are detected through the F547M (green) filter. These small cool stars are therefore mapped as very red in the Hubble image.

Ann

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by neufer » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:06 pm


Chris Peterson wrote:
Note that the responsivity curves presented in the Wikipedia link are normalized. When considering the relative sensitivity of the eye at various wavelengths, we're better off looking at the unnormalized data.
Foveal sensitivity = sum of cone sensitivities :!:

Don't you pack a rod or two out there in Colorado.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:51 pm

neufer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: Our eyes are least sensitive to blue light. Our short wavelength cone response is one to two orders of magnitude less sensitive than our long wavelength cone response.

Another factor to consider is that the cone density of short wavelength cells is also lowest. Our blue sensitivity isn't just poor, so is our blue resolution. This is very easily seen if you're out at night and observe a commercial sign with illuminated blue letters against a dark background. The writing will look out of focus. But it's not a focus problem; the failure is happening in the retina itself.
While it is true that we have many more orange sensitive L cones & green sensitive M cones than blue sensitive S cones
...we have about 15 times as many green-blue sensitive rod cells as all our own cone cells.
  • A rod cell is sensitive enough to respond to a single photon of light
    and is about 100 times more sensitive to a single photon than cones.
Of course, rods are hugely more sensitive, which is why we see in B&W when the light is dim. (And while a single rod can respond to a single photon, in practice it takes 5-10 photons to create a response in the visual cortex, and given the fact that most photons entering the eye fail to hit a rod, we end up with an actual quantum efficiency of just 1-5%.)

Note that the responsivity curves presented in the Wikipedia link are normalized. When considering the relative sensitivity of the eye at various wavelengths, we're better off looking at the unnormalized data.
cone_sen.jpg
cone_sen.jpg (30.11 KiB) Viewed 3516 times

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by neufer » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:47 pm

geckzilla wrote:
At some point I hid some [blue] words in an image that said
"Write yes in the comments if you can read this."
or something like that, and no one wrote yes.
  • The Asterisk automatically deletes [blue] words.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence wrote:
<<Anecdotal evidence is evidence from anecdotes, i.e., evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony. Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases. Similarly, psychologists have found that due to cognitive bias people are more likely to remember notable or unusual examples rather than typical examples. Thus, even when accurate, anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a typical experience. Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is "typical" requires statistical evidence.>>

geckzilla wrote:
... the blue channel tends to have the lowest signal to noise ratio and relatively lower in quality.
Huh :!: :?:

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by Ann » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:35 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:As I see no truly red stars here I take it that the red giants are really yellow? Or is this a processing effect? If so, though it will doubtless be very attractive to many, I say :thumb_down: on the processing. (I like red, almost as much as Ann likes blue.)

Bruce

P.S. The only thing red in this apod is the distraction spikes on bright yellow stars.
Right you are, Bruce. Extremely few stars are red. T Lyrae is red, as is V Aquilae. The latter is the only star that I have observed myself which was really, staggeringly red.

But other supposedly "red" stars turned out to be merely a pale shade of orange, like Mu Cephei.

In my humble opinion, most "red" stars are "less red" than the bluest stars are blue-white. Whatever that means. Surely most cool stars are more yellow than most hot stars are blue.

But even I must admit that when it comes to saturated hues, nothing beats T Lyrae and V Aquilae.

Ann

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by neufer » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:31 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:
Also... our eyes are just more sensitive to blue light.
Our eyes are least sensitive to blue light. Our short wavelength cone response is one to two orders of magnitude less sensitive than our long wavelength cone response.

Another factor to consider is that the cone density of short wavelength cells is also lowest. Our blue sensitivity isn't just poor, so is our blue resolution. This is very easily seen if you're out at night and observe a commercial sign with illuminated blue letters against a dark background. The writing will look out of focus. But it's not a focus problem; the failure is happening in the retina itself.
While it is true that we have many more orange sensitive L cones & green sensitive M cones than blue sensitive S cones
...we have about 15 times as many green-blue sensitive rod cells as all our own cone cells.
  • A rod cell is sensitive enough to respond to a single photon of light
    and is about 100 times more sensitive to a single photon than cones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_cell wrote: <<Rod cells are photoreceptor cells in the retina of the eye that can function in less intense light than the other type of visual photoreceptor, cone cells. Rods are usually found concentrated at the outer edges of the retina and are used in peripheral vision. On average, there are approximately 90 million rod cells in the human retina. Rod cells are more sensitive than cone cells and are almost entirely responsible for night vision. However, rods have little role in color vision, which is one of the main reasons why colors are much less apparent in darkness.

A rod cell is sensitive enough to respond to a single photon of light and is about 100 times more sensitive to a single photon than cones. Since rods require less light to function than cones, they are the primary source of visual information at night (scotopic vision). Cone cells, on the other hand, require tens to hundreds of photons to become activated. Additionally, multiple rod cells converge on a single interneuron, collecting and amplifying the signals. However, this convergence comes at a cost to visual acuity (or image resolution) because the pooled information from multiple cells is less distinct than it would be if the visual system received information from each rod cell individually.

Rod cells also respond slower to light than cones and the stimuli they receive are added over roughly 100 milliseconds. While this makes rods more sensitive to smaller amounts of light, it also means that their ability to sense temporal changes, such as quickly changing images, is less accurate than that of cones.

Experiments by George Wald and others showed that rods are most sensitive to wavelengths of light around 498 nm (green-blue), and insensitive to wavelengths longer than about 640 nm (red). This is responsible for the Purkinje effect: as intensity dims at twilight, the rods take over, and before color disappears completely, peak sensitivity of vision shifts towards the rods' peak sensitivity (blue-green).

Rods are a little longer and leaner than cones but have the same basic structure. Opsin-containing disks lie at the end of the cell adjacent to the retinal pigment epithelium, which in turn is attached to the inside of the sclera. The stacked-disc structure of the detector portion of the cell allows for very high efficiency. Rods are much more common than cones, with about 100 million rod cells compared to 7 million cone cells.>>

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:50 pm

geckzilla wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:Also... our eyes are just more sensitive to blue light.
Our eyes are least sensitive to blue light. Our short wavelength cone response is one to two orders of magnitude less sensitive than our long wavelength cone response.
This is a very useful fact that is easily observed by hiding various things in the blue channel. At some point I hid some words in an image that said "Write yes in the comments if you can read this." or something like that, and no one wrote yes. I am also thankful for this because the blue channel tends to have the lowest signal to noise ratio and relatively lower in quality.
Another factor to consider is that the cone density of short wavelength cells is also lowest. Our blue sensitivity isn't just poor, so is our blue resolution. This is very easily seen if you're out at night and observe a commercial sign with illuminated blue letters against a dark background. The writing will look out of focus. But it's not a focus problem; the failure is happening in the retina itself.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by geckzilla » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:43 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:Also... our eyes are just more sensitive to blue light.
Our eyes are least sensitive to blue light. Our short wavelength cone response is one to two orders of magnitude less sensitive than our long wavelength cone response.
This is a very useful fact that is easily observed by hiding various things in the blue channel. At some point I hid some words in an image that said "Write yes in the comments if you can read this." or something like that, and no one wrote yes. I am also thankful for this because the blue channel tends to have the lowest signal to noise ratio and relatively lower in quality.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:22 pm

neufer wrote:Also... our eyes are just more sensitive to blue light.
Our eyes are least sensitive to blue light. Our short wavelength cone response is one to two orders of magnitude less sensitive than our long wavelength cone response.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by neufer » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:04 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:
neufer wrote:
... our eyes are just more sensitive to blue light.

One needs carbon to scatter the blue light
in order to really appreciate a red star:

http://oneminuteastronomer.com/1206/vampire-star/
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observin ... 203201401/
Nice points Art. Wouldn't you think though, that in this set of 100,000+ geriatric gems there would be at least a few fat, wheezing old gezzers choking on their own crud? (No offense intended.) :wink:

https://emojipedia.org/face-with-one-eyebrow-raised/ wrote:
Colbert emoji: A face with a neutral mouth and single eyebrow raised.
May be used to denote scepticism, disbelief, or disapproval.
Has been likened to the quizzical looks of Stephen Colbert.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by neufer » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:37 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
There are globular clusters which are suspected to contain small amounts of dark matter (<10% of the mass), and there are globular clusters around other galaxies which appear to have high dark matter content. Whether this difference from the local globulars (that appear to have little or no dark matter) represents a difference in formation history or is a consequence of evolution (such as stripping by galactic tides) remains an area of study.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_globular_cluster wrote: <<Dark globular cluster is a proposed type of globular star clusters that has an unusually high mass for the number of stars within it. Proposed in 2015 on the basis of observational data, dark globular clusters are believed to be populated by objects with significant dark matter components, such as central massive black holes. The observational data for dark globular clusters comes from the Very Large Telescope (VLT) in Chile which observed the vicinity of the galaxy Centaurus A. Many of the globular clusters inside that galaxy are brighter and more massive than those orbiting the Milky Way and a sample of 125 globular clusters around Centaurus A was studied using the VLT's FLAMES instrument. While globular clusters are normally considered to be almost devoid of dark matter, the study of the dynamical properties of sampled clusters suggested the presence of exotically concentrated dark matter. The study was published in The Astrophysical Journal. The existence of dark globular clusters would suggest that their formation and evolution are markedly different from other globular clusters in Centaurus A and the Local Group.>>

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by geckzilla » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:19 pm

NoelC wrote:This is a false color image where the blue channel was indeed photographed through a blue filter, but the green channel is really red data and the red channel is infrared data.

Photography specifics here: https://www.spacetelescope.org/images/potw1118a/

Also, the Hubble itself was apparently rotated when shooting the infrared data (shown as the red channel) as compared to the blue and red data (shown as blue and green channels) since we can see that the red diffraction spikes don't align with the blue and green ones. Some elbow grease could correct that by removing the optical spikes, or by removing just the red ones and regenerating equivalent spikes with the same rotation as the blue/green channels.

Lastly, the three color channels are not very well aligned with one another, as you can see red/cyan fringes on virtually every star.
It would make very little difference if the red channel was a real red or the near-infrared channel that was used in this case. That only makes a big difference for galaxies, where an image like this would have green ionized hydrogen clouds instead of the preferable pinkish ones, and more background galaxies would be revealed. In this case, the infrared actually helps separate the colors more. If you wanted the globular to become very red, then you would have to include some near-UV data for the blue channel. That would turn the entire globular yellow, and then the most yellowish stars would become red.

As a side note of possible interest, here* are some clusters I picked out from a near-uv / visible blue image of the Triangulum galaxy. Note the distinct difference between a globular cluster and the young ones. The globulars nearly became invisible!
https://twitter.com/SpaceGeck/status/925233406455070723

Regarding the alignment of the channels: I just want to note that even if you align them perfectly, the detector is more sensitive to the redder wavelengths than it is the bluer ones, and the point spread function is also different for each quadrant of the detector. This is close to perfectly aligned, but maybe not exactly. But I'm saying even if it was perfectly aligned, fringing is almost inevitable as the red will spread out a bit farther, and it spreads with some asymmetry. Ergo: colorful fringing.
BDanielMayfield wrote:After looking at the specifics that Noel provided here: https://www.spacetelescope.org/images/potw1118a/
I would love to see what this cluster would look like if someone could redo M5 using the blue data for blue, an average of the blue and red channels for green, and an average of the red and infrared channels for red. That might really make the red pop!
See my reply to Noel. You have the right idea, but you compressed the spectrum in a way that would result in less color separation, not more. Just to reiterate, the F814W filter is very close to human visible red in terms of space images, at least as far as stars go. It reveals some dust-obscured stars and background galaxies, and that's about it.



*Yes, I did mess up that lower right one. Noting it here again in case the tweet below which mentions this is not read. The lower right one is a hydrogen cloud. My bad!

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:16 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:As I see no truly red stars here I take it that the red giants are really yellow? Or is this a processing effect? If so, though it will doubtless be very attractive to many, I say :thumb_down: on the processing. (I like red, almost as much as Ann likes blue.)
Aside from all the issues discussed about the filters that have been used and the way two-channel data is processed, the reality is that the coolest red giants that we see are orange-yellow. I'm not aware of any stars we can see that are cool enough to appear red. The only truly red stars are that way because of intervening material altering their color- either in dust clouds or their own atmospheres.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:07 pm

heehaw wrote:
BDanielMayfield wrote:
heehaw wrote:Someone please tell me why globular clusters do not contain any significant amount of dark matter. Everything else does.
How much of your personal mass is dark matter? Astronomically, how much of the Earth, Sun, etc. is dark matter?

Dark matter just ain't into us baryonic things. The attraction isn't mutual.

Bruce
Thanks, Bruce, but all galaxies, including small ones (indeed, especially small ones) DO contain dark matter. But I have the impression that NO globular cluster does, and I've never read any speculation anywhere as to why that is. It does seem to me to be a very peculiar mystery.
There are globular clusters which are suspected to contain small amounts of dark matter (<10% of the mass), and there are globular clusters around other galaxies which appear to have high dark matter content. Whether this difference from the local globulars (that appear to have little or no dark matter) represents a difference in formation history or is a consequence of evolution (such as stripping by galactic tides) remains an area of study.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by BDanielMayfield » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:53 pm

heehaw wrote:
BDanielMayfield wrote:
heehaw wrote:Someone please tell me why globular clusters do not contain any significant amount of dark matter. Everything else does.
How much of your personal mass is dark matter? Astronomically, how much of the Earth, Sun, etc. is dark matter?

Dark matter just ain't into us baryonic things. The attraction isn't mutual.

Bruce
Thanks, Bruce, but all galaxies, including small ones (indeed, especially small ones) DO contain dark matter. But I have the impression that NO globular cluster does, and I've never read any speculation anywhere as to why that is. It does seem to me to be a very peculiar mystery.
Your comment makes sense now that I know the scale of what you where referring to. We do know that dark and normal matter in galactic clusters can become decoupled, as in the Bullet Cluster. Wild speculation here, but perhaps dark matter did have some role in the formation of globulars in the distant past, but passages through denser parts of galaxies during globular cluster orbits decouple the DM?

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by BDanielMayfield » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:36 pm

After looking at the specifics that Noel provided here: https://www.spacetelescope.org/images/potw1118a/
I would love to see what this cluster would look like if someone could redo M5 using the blue data for blue, an average of the blue and red channels for green, and an average of the red and infrared channels for red. That might really make the red pop!

Bruce

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2017 Nov 04)

by heehaw » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:18 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:
heehaw wrote:Someone please tell me why globular clusters do not contain any significant amount of dark matter. Everything else does.
How much of your personal mass is dark matter? Astronomically, how much of the Earth, Sun, etc. is dark matter?

Dark matter just ain't into us baryonic things. The attraction isn't mutual.

Bruce
Thanks, Bruce, but all galaxies, including small ones (indeed, especially small ones) DO contain dark matter. But I have the impression that NO globular cluster does, and I've never read any speculation anywhere as to why that is. It does seem to me to be a very peculiar mystery.

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