APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Nitpicker » Tue May 23, 2017 12:31 am

Actually, on further reading, I found this article from Krauss and Chaboyer:
http://www.astro.caltech.edu/~george/ay ... er2003.pdf

... which seems to be the source of some of the material in the link you provided, Ann.

My reading of it (I don't pretend to understand it all) is that the upper limits on the age estimations of GCs, are still older than the universe, but the age estimations of both are considerably more certain than they were in the decades preceding.

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Nitpicker » Mon May 22, 2017 10:24 pm

I never realised it was considered classic paradox, nor that it had been conclusively resolved in the last 10 years. At least I was correct when I said someone would correct me. Thanks Ann.

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by neufer » Mon May 22, 2017 3:04 pm

Ann wrote:
This is an interesting page.
astro.psu.edu/lecture 27 wrote:

Globular clusters

• They are among the oldest objects in the galaxy, provide a lower
limit on the age of the universe
– Why is it a lower limit?
– There are a fair number of uncertainties in these estimates,
including errors in measuring the distances to the GCs and
uncertainties in the isochrones used to derive ages (i.e. stellar
evolution models)
– Inputs to stellar evolution models include – oxygen abundance
[O/Fe], treatment of convection, helium abundance, reaction rates of
14N + p → 150 + γ, helium diffusion, conversions from theoretical
temperatures and luminosities to observed colors and magnitudes,
and opacities


Recent Results for GC’s

• So the globular clusters are somewhere between ~11.7 and 14.7
Gyr old
• Since it probably takes 1-2 Gyr for galaxies to form, we need to
add that to the GC ages to get the age of the universe
• Note that older estimates were closer to 13-17 Gyr old, what
changed?
– Distances to globular clusters increased by ~10% based on the
Hipparcos calibration of the absolute magnitudes of subdwarfs
(lowers ages by ~20%)
– Inputs to stellar evolutionary models
– Younger ages more compatible with with ages estimated from
expansion of universe (phew!)
  • So...essentially the classic paradox has mostly been due to:
    • an underestimation of luminosities/distances
      making for older GCs and a younger Universe.

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Ann » Mon May 22, 2017 1:43 pm

Nitpicker wrote:
Ann wrote:while it's true that you can still find age estimates in the range of 15 billion years for some globulars, those estimates were made before it was known that the universe is about 14 billion years old.
Not so sure about that. Without linking to any papers, I was reading a recent one the other day, that gave age estimates for a list of GCs. I think the overlaps in the uncertainties of some of their ages, with the uncertainty in the age of the universe, is merely due to the different techniques for estimating the ages. No one seriously thinks that GCs are older than the universe. But it is interesting to note the error tolerances.
This is an interesting page.
astro.psu.edu/lecture 27 wrote:

Globular clusters

• They are among the oldest objects in the galaxy, provide a lower
limit on the age of the universe
– Why is it a lower limit?
– There are a fair number of uncertainties in these estimates,
including errors in measuring the distances to the GCs and
uncertainties in the isochrones used to derive ages (i.e. stellar
evolution models)
– Inputs to stellar evolution models include – oxygen abundance
[O/Fe], treatment of convection, helium abundance, reaction rates of
14N + p → 150 + γ, helium diffusion, conversions from theoretical
temperatures and luminosities to observed colors and magnitudes,
and opacities


Recent Results for GC’s

• So the globular clusters are somewhere between ~11.7 and 14.7
Gyr old
• Since it probably takes 1-2 Gyr for galaxies to form, we need to
add that to the GC ages to get the age of the universe
• Note that older estimates were closer to 13-17 Gyr old, what
changed?
– Distances to globular clusters increased by ~10% based on the
Hipparcos calibration of the absolute magnitudes of subdwarfs
(lowers ages by ~20%)
– Inputs to stellar evolutionary models
– Younger ages more compatible with with ages estimated from
expansion of universe (phew!)
Ann

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by starsurfer » Mon May 22, 2017 12:00 pm

bystander wrote:
starsurfer wrote:
Ann wrote:
A spheroidal galaxy: NGC 205, satellite of M31.
Photo: Probably Adam Block.
The image of M110 isn't by Adam Block, it might be by Leonardo Orazi?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/leonardo70/6220115689/
Yep, that's the one!

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Nitpicker » Mon May 22, 2017 5:46 am

Ann wrote:while it's true that you can still find age estimates in the range of 15 billion years for some globulars, those estimates were made before it was known that the universe is about 14 billion years old.
Not so sure about that. Without linking to any papers, I was reading a recent one the other day, that gave age estimates for a list of GCs. I think the overlaps in the uncertainties of some of their ages, with the uncertainty in the age of the universe, is merely due to the different techniques for estimating the ages. No one seriously thinks that GCs are older than the universe. But it is interesting to note the error tolerances.

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Ann » Mon May 22, 2017 5:36 am

Nitpicker wrote:I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm not up-to-date, but it still seems to be the mainstream view that most globular clusters are amongst the oldest components of galaxies. The uncertainties in some of their age estimations, even overlap with the age of the universe. Whether GCs formed before or after the galactic discs of gas (which seem to form relatively quickly and early) there seems to be more to suggest that GCs formed within the halos/bulges (within regions of efficient star formation), rather than the discs.
It's absolutely true that globular clusters are believed to be among the most ancient components of galaxies, because their stars are so metal-poor. You can be sure that globulars are not older than the universe, though, and while it's true that you can still find age estimates in the range of 15 billion years for some globulars, those estimates were made before it was known that the universe is about 14 billion years old.

I'll still offer no strong opinion on how and where globular clusters were formed, but you must bear in mind that they formed at a time when the universe small and tight and almost roaring with sloshing and breaking waves of unused hydrogen. I think that this situation in itself was extremely favorable for the formation of truly huge numbers of globular clusters, perhaps all over the small observable universe, and that this led to changes in the universe itself.
M82. NASA, ESA, and The Hubble Heritage Team (STScI/AURA)
The central starburst of small galaxy M82 has led to huge outflows of gas from the center of the galaxy, as large numbers of high-mass stars created in the starburst have gone supernova. This enormous outflow of gas has altered M82 itself. The disk of the galaxy is crisscrossed with broken dust lanes, but we see extremely few signs of any bright stars at all in the disk. It is as if star formation in the disk had come to a stop after so much gas has been blown out of the galaxy.

Now imagine a universe-full of M82s, all popping their tops in enormous supernova explosions going off mostly everywhere at the same time. I think that must have affected the properties of the entire universe at that time. For example, it may have stirred up the gas everywhere so much that it inhibited the formation of new globulars for a while. And by the time when the gas had cooled down and was ready for truly major star formation again, the universe had grown larger and more spread out. Also the gas of the universe would have become a lot more metal-rich after all those tremendous explosions, and it is not certain that metal-rich gas is as efficient at forming clusters as the concentrated, pristine, metal-poor gas was.

Ann

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Nitpicker » Mon May 22, 2017 12:17 am

I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm not up-to-date, but it still seems to be the mainstream view that most globular clusters are amongst the oldest components of galaxies. The uncertainties in some of their age estimations, even overlap with the age of the universe. Whether GCs formed before or after the galactic discs of gas (which seem to form relatively quickly and early) there seems to be more to suggest that GCs formed within the halos/bulges (within regions of efficient star formation), rather than the discs.

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Ann » Sun May 21, 2017 5:57 pm

Thanks, bystander.

Ann

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by bystander » Sun May 21, 2017 5:56 pm

starsurfer wrote:
Ann wrote:
A spheroidal galaxy: NGC 205, satellite of M31.
Photo: Probably Adam Block.
The image of M110 isn't by Adam Block, it might be by Leonardo Orazi?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/leonardo70/6220115689/

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Ann » Sun May 21, 2017 5:36 pm

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by starsurfer » Sun May 21, 2017 4:43 pm

Ann wrote:
RocketRon wrote: It seems to have no structure to it ?
The wiki article calls it an 'irregular' galaxy, precisely what does that mean.
An irregular galaxy: The Small Magellanic Cloud.
ESA/Hubble and Digitized Sky Survey 2. Acknowledgements: Davide De Martin.
A spheroidal galaxy: NGC 205, satellite of M31.
Photo: Probably Adam Block.


























An irregular galaxy is small, has no spiral arms, contains young stars (as well as old ones) and often contains emission nebulas. Irregular galaxies also often lack a bright core.

That's it, really!

So the Small Magellanic Cloud, which has a lot of star formation, several big nebulas, no bright core and an irregular shape, is a prototype irregular galaxy. NGC 205, the largest M31 satellite, has a very oval shape, a predominantly old population and a small relatively young central population along with a pair of central dust clouds, but no ongoing star formation and no emission nebulas. NGC 205 is a (dwarf) spheroidal galaxy.

Ann
The image of M110 isn't by Adam Block, it might be by Leonardo Orazi?

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Chris Peterson » Sun May 21, 2017 2:21 am

Nitpicker wrote:And I also want to know why globulars stopped forming.
Maybe when we have a solid theory about how they form, we'll also understand why they stop forming.

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Chris Peterson » Sun May 21, 2017 2:20 am

Nitpicker wrote:Is there an explanation within the dominant models, for why a galaxy first forms as a disc of baryons embedded in a spheroidal halo of dark matter, prior to any star formation?

Does this imply that the baryons had an initial angular momentum that the dark matter lacked?
Dark matter has angular momentum, as well. But dark matter doesn't have electromagnetic interaction, so you have no mechanism to cause it to flatten into a disk. So the dark matter remains in a spherical halo. The gravitationally bound baryons, however, if sufficiently dense, do interact, and flatten out because of their fluid behavior.

This has to happen before many stars form, because once you have stars, you have no mechanism to pull them into a disk. Stars behave like independent particles, not like elements of a fluid.

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Nitpicker » Sun May 21, 2017 12:18 am

Is there an explanation within the dominant models, for why a galaxy first forms as a disc of baryons embedded in a spheroidal halo of dark matter, prior to any star formation?

Does this imply that the baryons had an initial angular momentum that the dark matter lacked?

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Nitpicker » Sat May 20, 2017 9:20 pm

I'm clearly reading the wrong articles on galaxy formation.

And I also want to know why globulars stopped forming.

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by neufer » Sat May 20, 2017 6:27 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
Regions of star formation started out in irregular clumps. Irregular clumps within disk-like gas regions.
So those "irregular clumps" don't qualify as dwarf galaxies :?:
Not at all. They represent part of the galaxy formation process very early on, before the galaxies even existed. It's certainly possible that some dwarf galaxies originated in such clumps that were ejected from their host regions. But the dwarfs are considerably evolved from those early clumps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test wrote: <<The DUCK test is a term for a form of abDUCTive reasoning. The test implies that a person can identify an unknown subject by observing that subject's habitual characteristics. It is sometimes used to counter abstruse, or even valid, arguments that something is not what it appears to be.

Indiana poet James Whitcomb Riley (1849–1916) may have coined the phrase when he wrote:
  • When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck.
Douglas Adams parodied this test in his book Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency:
  • If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands.
Similarly, the term elephant test refers to situations in which an idea or thing, "is hard to describe, but instantly recognizable when spotted".>>

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Chris Peterson » Sat May 20, 2017 4:24 pm

neufer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote: Most galaxies probably started out small & irregular.
That is not my reading of it.

Regions of star formation started out in irregular clumps. Irregular clumps within disk-like gas regions.
So those "irregular clumps" don't qualify as dwarf galaxies :?:
Not at all. They represent part of the galaxy formation process very early on, before the galaxies even existed.

It's certainly possible that some dwarf galaxies originated in such clumps that were ejected from their host regions. But the dwarfs are considerably evolved from those early clumps.

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by neufer » Sat May 20, 2017 4:14 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
Not sure of your point, however, as it doesn't alter my observation.
Most galaxies probably started out small & irregular.
That is not my reading of it.

Regions of star formation started out in irregular clumps. Irregular clumps within disk-like gas regions.
So those "irregular clumps" don't qualify as dwarf galaxies :?:

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Chris Peterson » Sat May 20, 2017 4:10 pm

Ann wrote:
The Hubble eXtreme Deep Field.
NASA; ESA; G. Illingworth, D. Magee, and P. Oesch, University of California,
Santa Cruz; R. Bouwens, Leiden University; and the HUDF09 Team)
If you take a look at the small blue very distant galaxies in the Hubble eXtreme Deep Field, you can see that most of them seem to have features. Most of them don't look like featureless blobs.
Exactly. Most galaxies have features. They typically form as disks, but in higher density regions many collided to form ellipticals while still very young.

Note that what we see in images like this is actual galaxies. Not protogalaxies in the early stages of formation (which is where you have clumping inside what will become a galaxy after millions of years).

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Ann » Sat May 20, 2017 4:03 pm

The Hubble eXtreme Deep Field.
NASA; ESA; G. Illingworth, D. Magee, and P. Oesch, University of California,
Santa Cruz; R. Bouwens, Leiden University; and the HUDF09 Team)
If you take a look at the small blue very distant galaxies in the Hubble eXtreme Deep Field, you can see that most of them seem to have features. Most of them don't look like featureless blobs.

But I'll offer no other opinion on what the first galaxies or proto-galaxies looked like when they first formed.

Ann

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Chris Peterson » Sat May 20, 2017 3:32 pm

neufer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:
Yes. Not sure of your point, however, as it doesn't alter my observation.
Most galaxies probably started out small & irregular.
That is not my reading of it.

Regions of star formation started out in irregular clumps. Irregular clumps within disk-like gas regions.

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by neufer » Sat May 20, 2017 3:23 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:
Nitpicker wrote:
All galaxies probably started out spheroidal.
Chris Peterson wrote:
I think all of the dominant models have galaxies starting out as disks. That is, you have a disk of baryonic material (hydrogen and helium) embedded in a sphere of dark matter, and at that point you get star formation beginning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Ultra-Deep_Field#Scientific_results wrote:
<<The Hubble Ultra-Deep Field (HUDF) has revealed high rates of star formation during the very early stages of galaxy formation, within a billion years after the Big Bang. Galaxies at high redshifts have been confirmed to be smaller and less symmetrical than ones at lower redshifts, illuminating the rapid evolution of galaxies in the first couple of billion years after the Big Bang. The Hubble eXtreme Deep Field (HXDF), is an image of a portion of space in the center of the Hubble Ultra Deep Field image. The HXDF contains approximately 5,500 galaxies, the oldest of which are seen as they were 13.2 billion years ago. The red galaxies in the image are the remnants of galaxies after major collisions during their elderly years. Many of the smaller galaxies in the image are very young galaxies that eventually developed into major galaxies, similar to the Milky Way and other galaxies in our galactic neighborhood.>>
Yes. Not sure of your point, however, as it doesn't alter my observation.
Most galaxies probably started out small & irregular.

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by Chris Peterson » Sat May 20, 2017 3:11 pm

neufer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
Nitpicker wrote:
All galaxies probably started out spheroidal.
I think all of the dominant models have galaxies starting out as disks. That is, you have a disk of baryonic material (hydrogen and helium) embedded in a sphere of dark matter, and at that point you get star formation beginning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Ultra-Deep_Field#Scientific_results wrote:
<<The Hubble Ultra-Deep Field (HUDF) has revealed high rates of star formation during the very early stages of galaxy formation, within a billion years after the Big Bang. Galaxies at high redshifts have been confirmed to be smaller and less symmetrical than ones at lower redshifts, illuminating the rapid evolution of galaxies in the first couple of billion years after the Big Bang. The Hubble eXtreme Deep Field (HXDF), is an image of a portion of space in the center of the Hubble Ultra Deep Field image. The HXDF contains approximately 5,500 galaxies, the oldest of which are seen as they were 13.2 billion years ago. The red galaxies in the image are the remnants of galaxies after major collisions during their elderly years. Many of the smaller galaxies in the image are very young galaxies that eventually developed into major galaxies, similar to the Milky Way and other galaxies in our galactic neighborhood.>>
Yes. Not sure of your point, however, as it doesn't alter my observation.

Re: APOD: Wolf-Lundmark-Melotte (2017 May 19)

by neufer » Sat May 20, 2017 3:03 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Nitpicker wrote:
All galaxies probably started out spheroidal.
I think all of the dominant models have galaxies starting out as disks. That is, you have a disk of baryonic material (hydrogen and helium) embedded in a sphere of dark matter, and at that point you get star formation beginning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Ultra-Deep_Field#Scientific_results wrote:
<<The Hubble Ultra-Deep Field (HUDF) has revealed high rates of star formation during the very early stages of galaxy formation, within a billion years after the Big Bang. Galaxies at high redshifts have been confirmed to be smaller and less symmetrical than ones at lower redshifts, illuminating the rapid evolution of galaxies in the first couple of billion years after the Big Bang. The Hubble eXtreme Deep Field (HXDF), is an image of a portion of space in the center of the Hubble Ultra Deep Field image. The HXDF contains approximately 5,500 galaxies, the oldest of which are seen as they were 13.2 billion years ago. The red galaxies in the image are the remnants of galaxies after major collisions during their elderly years. Many of the smaller galaxies in the image are very young galaxies that eventually developed into major galaxies, similar to the Milky Way and other galaxies in our galactic neighborhood.>>

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