APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

Post a reply


This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
Smilies
:D :) :ssmile: :( :o :shock: :? 8-) :lol2: :x :P :oops: :cry: :evil: :roll: :wink: :!: :?: :idea: :arrow: :| :mrgreen:
View more smilies

BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[url] is ON
Smilies are ON

Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by Ann » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:19 pm

Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Well, I agree with Geck that some high-mass star formation may affect the dust lane in places. But it is hard to predict exactly how the dust lane will evolve, even though GLIMPSE/MIPSGAL has given us a good idea where of to find future high-mass star formation.

Ann

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:35 am

neufer wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
geckzilla wrote: I'm not sure we know enough to say that for certain. Dust is just as dynamic as stars and some parts change a lot while other parts aren't undergoing much change. A million years might be plenty of time to see significant changes especially in areas of star formation. Of course, this whole galaxy view might indeed be too broad to notice much.
But we're not really seeing a dust lane in our own galaxy on the scale that we see it in others. The visible dust lane we see splitting the Milky Way in our sky is only a very small part of the dust lane our entire galaxy likely has. It's a local, moderately small feature, and as such, we might expect it to show more change over a million years.
I tending to lean towards Ann's point of view on this one.
Don't misunderstand me... I also think the same. I was just pointing out that the dust lane we see in the Milky Way is quite different from the dust lanes we see in other galaxies.

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by neufer » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:23 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
geckzilla wrote:
Ann wrote:
As for Milky Way's dust lane, it will certainly be mostly unchanged a million years from now. The Milky Way has a thick dust lane, and a million years is almost nothing in the life of a galaxy - at least if the galaxy in question isn't undergoing a major merger in that time. And ours won't, not in just a million years!
I'm not sure we know enough to say that for certain. Dust is just as dynamic as stars and some parts change a lot while other parts aren't undergoing much change. A million years might be plenty of time to see significant changes especially in areas of star formation. Of course, this whole galaxy view might indeed be too broad to notice much.
But we're not really seeing a dust lane in our own galaxy on the scale that we see it in others. The visible dust lane we see splitting the Milky Way in our sky is only a very small part of the dust lane our entire galaxy likely has. It's a local, moderately small feature, and as such, we might expect it to show more change over a million years.
I tending to lean towards Ann's point of view on this one.

If the basic motion of the disk is a constant velocity (~240 km/s) in one direction then most stars and gas clouds should be static as seen by a gyro stabilized camera. The APOD mapping mapping shifts almost everything in 2 million years by a mere 3º (~ 1/120 of an orbit) to the right for a camera centered upon Sagittarius A*. The Sun is situated near the inner rim of the Orion Arm and has a pretty clear dust-free shot at the Lagoon Nebula some 5,000 light years away. That nebula and the dust clouds around and behind it should do little more than simply shift ~3º to the right.

Noticeable dust lanes in our own Orion Arm affecting the Orion Nebula, the North American Nebula, the Pelican Nebula, etc. are just 1,500 light years away and random ~20 km/s motions might well be noticed in these features over 2 million years. However, it is very unlikely that the dust would be moving that fast vs-a-vis their bright gaseous components.

Re: wish list

by bystander » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:29 am

Luxi_Turna wrote:
ALSO ON THE WISH LIST:[/b] run the simulation longer. I want to watch the galaxy rotate. On the other hand, the naked eye stars are all in the Perseus arm (I think), which probably moves as a unit. But I'd like to see stars oscillate above and beneath the galactic plane...

ESA's video runs 5 million years
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by Luxi_Turna » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:32 am

Ann wrote: star formation is likely to cause some local changes in the central dust lane
Mmm, I don't know about that, Ann. Sure, you're more likely to see a new one in a dust lane, but a million years is just an eyeblink. A star's life is ten thousand times longer than that.

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by Luxi_Turna » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:25 am

ENORTON II wrote:It would have been nice to have the stars in the familiar constellations highlighted .
No it wouldn't. I hate looking at star-field pix through the visual noise of make-believe animals and star name text. None of that is real. But hey, that's just me.

Re: Gaia: Two Million Stars on the Move

by Luxi_Turna » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:22 am

I usually think APOD pix are real cool! But this one was scary, kind of. Everything about the galaxy is, because it's so big.

A galactic year is a quarter-billion years. That means it rotates one milliarcsec every 70 days. In my whole life it will only rotate 400 milliarcsecs. That's less angle than a meter-wide telescope can resolve, and it's my whole life.

...okay, it's stupid. But the galaxy is still scary to me anyway. Thinking about it makes me not want to be alone.

PS: Great video, BTW! Amazing. It needs more contrast though, and the simulation should run faster and for more years in the same 50-second video. I mean, IMHO. ☺ Most of the stars that move, you can barely see them move at all.

wish list

by Luxi_Turna » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:44 am

BDanielMayfield wrote: 2. Add more contrast. The brightness range of stars vary tremendously, way more than we even can accurately depict, but this sim doesn't show bright stars at all.[/list]
Yeah. I downloaded it and watched in my media player with the contrast up. You MUST try that!

ALSO ON THE WISH LIST:
run the simulation longer. I want to watch the galaxy rotate. On the other hand, the naked eye stars are all in the Perseus arm (I think), which probably moves as a unit. But I'd like to see stars oscillate above and beneath the galactic plane.

ALSO: an option (or a new vid) that only shows the stars that move, not the unchanging background.

ALSO:
a version with vector arrows reaching out from each star.

AND: a much faster version. Even 2x looks sluggish. I want to see what the galaxy is doing.

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by ENORTON II » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:40 am

It would have been nice to have the stars in the familiar constellations highlighted to see how things change. It seems random.

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:19 pm

Ann wrote:What I meant was that the dust lane will not go away in a million years. I googled "edge-on galaxy" and got all sorts of galaxies with dust lanes.
But we're not really seeing a dust lane in our own galaxy on the scale that we see it in others. The visible dust lane we see splitting the Milky Way in our sky is only a very small part of the dust lane our entire galaxy likely has. It's a local, moderately small feature, and as such, we might expect it to show more change over a million years.

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by Ann » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:55 pm

geckzilla wrote:
Ann wrote:Black and white is the new black for APOD!

Seriously, this kind of APOD could not have been made in color. I like the APOD. It is fascinating, and I look forward to more from Gaia!

As for Milky Way's dust lane, it will certainly be mostly unchanged a million years from now. The Milky Way has a thick dust lane, and a million years is almost nothing in the life of a galaxy - at least if the galaxy in question isn't undergoing a major merger in that time. And ours won't, not in just a million years!

Ann
I'm not sure we know enough to say that for certain. Dust is just as dynamic as stars and some parts change a lot while other parts aren't undergoing much change. A million years might be plenty of time to see significant changes especially in areas of star formation. Of course, this whole galaxy view might indeed be too broad to notice much.
What I meant was that the dust lane will not go away in a million years. I googled "edge-on galaxy" and got all sorts of galaxies with dust lanes. One galaxy that seems to lack a "regular" dust lane is M82, which is undergoing convulsions of star formation. Nothing like that is likely to happen to the Milky Way in the next million years.

So like you said, star formation is likely to cause some local changes in the central dust lane, but I think it is beyond the capabilities of Gaia to predict that.

Ann

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by neufer » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:47 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaxagoras wrote: <<Anaxagoras (Ἀναξαγόρας, "lord of the assembly"; c. 510 – c. 428 BC), a Pre-Socratic Greek philosopher born in Clazomenae in Asia Minor, was the first to bring philosophy to Athens. Heavenly bodies, he asserted, were masses of stone torn from the earth and ignited by rapid rotation. Anaxagoras explained that both sun and the stars were fiery stones but that we don't feel the heat of the stars because of their enormous distance from earth. Anaxagoras produced a correct explanation for eclipses and described the sun as larger than the Peloponnese. According to Diogenes Laertius and Plutarch, in later life he was charged with impiety and went into exile in Lampsacus; the charges may have been political, owing to his association with Pericles.

Anaxagoras is referred to and admired by Cyrus Spitama, the hero and narrator of Creation, by Gore Vidal. The book contains this passage, explaining how Anaxagoras became influential:

[According to Anaxagoras] One of the largest things is a hot stone that we call the sun. When Anaxagoras was very young, he predicted that sooner or later a piece of the sun would break off and fall to earth. Twenty years ago, he was proved right. The whole world saw a fragment of the sun fall in a fiery arc through the sky, landing near Aegospotami in Thrace. When the fiery fragment cooled, it proved to be nothing more than a chunk of brown rock. Overnight Anaxagoras was famous. Today his book is read everywhere. You can buy a secondhand copy in the Agora for a drachma.>>

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by geckzilla » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:51 pm

Ann wrote:Black and white is the new black for APOD!

Seriously, this kind of APOD could not have been made in color. I like the APOD. It is fascinating, and I look forward to more from Gaia!

As for Milky Way's dust lane, it will certainly be mostly unchanged a million years from now. The Milky Way has a thick dust lane, and a million years is almost nothing in the life of a galaxy - at least if the galaxy in question isn't undergoing a major merger in that time. And ours won't, not in just a million years!

Ann
I'm not sure we know enough to say that for certain. Dust is just as dynamic as stars and some parts change a lot while other parts aren't undergoing much change. A million years might be plenty of time to see significant changes especially in areas of star formation. Of course, this whole galaxy view might indeed be too broad to notice much.

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by ThePiper » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:21 pm

heehaw wrote:I agree with the previous comments, but it is still great to have these data. Add music to the video; it is all symbolic!
Also, it reminds me of a great experience I had about 30 years ago...
heehaw - I always appreciate your sense of humor and the experience reports providing insights into the exciting work of scientists. Thank you! :)

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by Steve Dutch » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:02 pm

Note that the first couple of hundred thousand years have lots of fast-moving stars as nearby stars zip past us and recede. Then they become much less common. No doubt their replacements are out there but GAIA hasn't spotted them yet.

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by bystander » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:42 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:
Why not? ...

See Chris's answer above.

edit:
ESA wrote:...
On its way to assembling the most detailed 3D map ever made of our Milky Way galaxy, Gaia has pinned down the precise position on the sky and the brightness of 1142 million stars.

As a taster of the richer catalogue to come in the near future, today’s release also features the distances and the motions across the sky for more than two million stars. ...

See a detailed description of the video here.

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by BDanielMayfield » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:34 pm

Ann wrote:Seriously, this kind of APOD could not have been made in color.
Why not? In addition to recording proper motion changes over time Gaia takes stellar spectra so it can accurately measure motions toward or away from us as well. If you have a star's spectra you also have the star's color.

Bruce

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by Ann » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:30 pm

neufer wrote: Rapid distorted motion nears the Mercator mapping poles is related to
the grotesque distortions of Greenland in standard Mercator mappings of the Earth
(or flight paths from Tokyo to Washington, D.C. on same).
Yes, Mercator mappings make Greenland (almost) the same size as Africa, and bigger than South America.

Ann

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:20 pm

Ann wrote:Black and white is the new black for APOD!

Seriously, this kind of APOD could not have been made in color.
That's true using the first Gaia dataset release. However, in addition to position Gaia also measures photometric data. Only the G-band data is released in the first dataset, but in the next the red and blue data will be present, as well, meaning that the effective temperatures of the stars will be known, and therefore their colors.

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by dbooksta » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:51 pm

neufer wrote: Rapid distorted motion nears the Mercator mapping poles is related to
the grotesque distortions of Greenland in standard Mercator mappings of the Earth
(or flight paths from Tokyo to Washington, D.C. on same).
Even if this is a Mercator-like projection, I was thinking that it covers such a narrow band on the vertical axis that I can't see that explaining the example I gave as being a star with a constant velocity as it moves from left to right.

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by neufer » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:41 pm

dbooksta wrote:
neufer wrote:
dbooksta wrote:
Frequently, close stars are seen accelerating into a speedy elliptic arc that decays to near motionlessness, characteristic of a close encounter with a relatively large mass. But I can't see anything that they would obviously be orbiting. Are there a bunch of nearby black holes or something?
The rapid motion of stars that come close within the next million years
is basically straight line 3D motion projected onto the 2D mapping.
Ah ha: You mean it's the result of distance perspective as they go from near to far.

What I was referring to is something like the star in the top left that at :20 accelerates from near stationary towards the right and by :22 has passed the middle of the map and decelerates to then drift very slowly towards the "horizon." That arc from :20 to :22 looks like an elliptic projection. Or is it something else?
Rapid distorted motion nears the Mercator mapping poles is related to
the grotesque distortions of Greenland in standard Mercator mappings of the Earth
(or flight paths from Tokyo to Washington, D.C. on same).

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by Ann » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:37 pm

Black and white is the new black for APOD!

Seriously, this kind of APOD could not have been made in color. I like the APOD. It is fascinating, and I look forward to more from Gaia!

As for Milky Way's dust lane, it will certainly be mostly unchanged a million years from now. The Milky Way has a thick dust lane, and a million years is almost nothing in the life of a galaxy - at least if the galaxy in question isn't undergoing a major merger in that time. And ours won't, not in just a million years!

Ann

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by dbooksta » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:31 pm

neufer wrote:
dbooksta wrote:
Frequently, close stars are seen accelerating into a speedy elliptic arc that decays to near motionlessness, characteristic of a close encounter with a relatively large mass. But I can't see anything that they would obviously be orbiting. Are there a bunch of nearby black holes or something?
The rapid motion of stars that come close within the next million years
is basically straight line 3D motion projected onto the 2D mapping.
Ah ha: You mean it's the result of distance perspective as they go from near to far.

What I was referring to is something like the star in the top left that at :20 accelerates from near stationary towards the right and by :22 has passed the middle of the map and decelerates to then drift very slowly towards the "horizon." That arc from :20 to :22 looks like an elliptic projection. Or is it something else?

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by BDanielMayfield » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:30 pm

neufer wrote:
dbooksta wrote:
Frequently, close stars are seen accelerating into a speedy elliptic arc that decays to near motionlessness, characteristic of a close encounter with a relatively large mass. But I can't see anything that they would obviously be orbiting. Are there a bunch of nearby black holes or something?
The rapid motion of stars that come close within the next million years
is basically straight line 3D motion projected onto the 2D mapping.
A good answer Art. Rest easy dbooksta, no black holes were used in the production of this model.

Would love to see the brightness changes with changing distance to be more pronounced than it is here though.

Bruce

Re: APOD: Two Million Stars on the Move (2017 Apr 17)

by neufer » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:16 pm

dbooksta wrote:
Frequently, close stars are seen accelerating into a speedy elliptic arc that decays to near motionlessness, characteristic of a close encounter with a relatively large mass. But I can't see anything that they would obviously be orbiting. Are there a bunch of nearby black holes or something?
The rapid motion of stars that come close within the next million years
is basically straight line 3D motion projected onto the 2D mapping.

Top