APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

Post a reply


This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
Smilies
:D :) :ssmile: :( :o :shock: :? 8-) :lol2: :x :P :oops: :cry: :evil: :roll: :wink: :!: :?: :idea: :arrow: :| :mrgreen:
View more smilies

BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[url] is ON
Smilies are ON

Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Ann » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:46 am

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by ta152h0 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:35 am

very well done, AN

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by neufer » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:39 am


Guest wrote:
How can we see stars "less than 10 million years old' that are 15 million light-years away?
By taking photos of them when they were young.

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Guest » Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:40 am

How can we see stars "less than 10 million years old' that are 15 million light-years away?

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by BillBixby » Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:39 pm

The picture in my mind is of a field of snow. Along comes a bunch of people. The loose snow gets compacted into snowman bodies and snowballs. My view is fun but unrealistic as it is not gravity pulling the balls together, but compression pushing them to form. Be prepared for snowball fights and a snowball when you are least expecting it.

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by neufer » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:27 pm

Ann wrote:
So M94 may have started out as an "orphan" blob of gas, flung away from its dark matter well. It got stopped in its tracks somehow, got concentrated, and started making stars.
Actually, the example you give suggests that 2 galaxies (or proto-galaxies) that were not initially gravitationally bound to each other accidentally collided such that their dark matter components kept on going (at greater than escape velocity) whereas the gases, stars and magnetic fields got entangled to produce a large dark matter free galaxy.
Ann wrote:
But it can never "grow up". It's like finding a Peter Pan or a hobbit galaxy in space. :ssmile:
It can probably never be normal. (Did M94 lose its central black holes as well?)

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by DavidLeodis » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:12 pm

It's a terrific image, but did it need to be so large? To see it all in one view I had to reduced the screen size on my laptop (which has a good size screen) but that makes the text small. There has been a trend for sometime now to issue APOD images that are much larger than they used to be. Is it now a requirement that APODs should be viewed only on very large monitors? Clicking on an APOD usually brings up a larger version so why not release a smaller version that can then be viewed larger when needed. I like to see APODs and have done for 16 years now, but the increasing use of very large images is bugging me. :roll:

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Ann » Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:22 am

neufer wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messier_94#Dark_matter wrote:
<<In 2008 a study was published that appeared to show that M94 had very little or no dark matter present. The study analyzed the rotation curves of the galaxy's stars and the density of hydrogen gas and found that ordinary luminous matter appeared to account for all of the galaxy's mass. This result was unusual and somewhat controversial, as current models don't indicate how a galaxy could form without a dark matter halo or how a galaxy could lose its dark matter. Other explanations for galactic rotation curves, such as MOND, also have difficulty explaining this galaxy.>>
The Bullet Cluster. Image: Chandra Observatory.
I had never heard that M94 mostly lacks dark matter. That is just amazing. Let me, please, suggest a possible connection between M94's lack of dark matter and the galaxy's small size.

Dark matter, the bulk of matter in the universe, is not evenly distributed in the universe but forms a web-like structure. The way I understand it, dark matter typically acts as an attractor for "normal" (baryonic) matter, which tends to concentrate in dark matter wells, where it can form galaxies.

But dark matter can get separated from baryonic matter, as a study with the Chandra X-ray Telescope demonstrated in 2006. In the picture at left, two galaxy clusters are colliding. Dark matter is concentrated in the blue areas, whereas luminous matter, observed by Chandra as X-rays from hot intracluster gas, is shown in red.

But if dark matter can separate from baryonic matter, it is just possible that a chunk of baryonic matter can be "flung away" from its original home in a dark matter well. If it was flung away, it might have become sufficiently concentrated to start forming stars. It is very likely that normal matter forms stars in the same way whether or not dark matter is present, and a concentration of normal matter may give rise to spiral galaxies even if dark matter is not present.

But if there is no dark matter, it may be hard for the galaxy to grow much. It has grown from its original helping of gas and dust, and it may not attract much more of it.

So M94 may have started out as an "orphan" blob of gas, flung away from its dark matter well. It got stopped in its tracks somehow, got concentrated, and started making stars. But it can never "grow up".

It's like finding a Peter Pan or a hobbit galaxy in space. :ssmile:

Ann

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:00 am

Ann wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:This is not a distant galaxy. 15 million ly is close enough for Hubble to resolve lots of individual stars. The hot blue stars in this galaxy are far enough apart that they are distinct from each other and stand out from the much denser (and unresolved) background of dimmer stars.
Although I mostly agree with Chris, I would like to point out that young bright blue stars are always massive, and massive stars are particularly likely to form binary stars, double stars and multiple stars.
Perhaps I should say that HST is able to resolve lots of individual star systems. As you note, spatially, we can't resolve multiple star systems at that distance.

(I've said it before, but it bears repeating: we mean something a little different with "resolve" when talking about distant stars than we do when discussing most other astronomical objects. For distant stars it normally means separating the star from its background. For most everything else, it means detecting surface features.)

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Ann » Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:49 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
MarkBour wrote:Very basic question. I have been told that for distant galaxies, we "cannot resolve individual stars". And I saw a recent Hubble image that managed to resolve a huge number of stars in the neighboring Andromeda Galaxy -- sort of, or barely. There were so many dots, that this impressive achievement appeared to confirm the fact for more distant galaxies.

My question, then, is: In an image such as this, what are the dots that one sees? Okay, okay, they're photons hitting a detector. But if we could magically zoom in at will, what would happen to these dots? Is every one of them likely a composite of numerous nearly-aligned stars?
This is not a distant galaxy. 15 million ly is close enough for Hubble to resolve lots of individual stars. The hot blue stars in this galaxy are far enough apart that they are distinct from each other and stand out from the much denser (and unresolved) background of dimmer stars.
Mu1 and Mu2 Scorpii.
Photo: Roberto Mura
Although I mostly agree with Chris, I would like to point out that young bright blue stars are always massive, and massive stars are particularly likely to form binary stars, double stars and multiple stars.
Sigma Orionis. Photo: José Antonio Caballero
Some blue stars form extremely wide doubles, like Mu Scorpii. (Actually Mu1 Scorpii is itself a binary star, consisting of two B-type stars.) Most double and multiple blue stars are much closer together than the main components of Mu Scorpii, for example Sigma Orionis. Many are so close that they can only be resolved spectroscopically, and some are found to be actually touching each other, like Beta Lyrae. You wouldn't know it from looking at a picture of it.

So I would say that there are definitely many massive blue stars in M94 that can't be resolved with our current telescopes.

Ann

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Ann » Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:18 am

Bryan wrote:I'm confused- if Messier 94 is 15 million light years away, how can we be seeing the very large blue stars that are 'only' 10 million years old? Wouldn't that mean that their light wouldn't have made it here yet?
The Cosmic Horseshoe. ESA/Hubble and NASA.
No, it doesn't work like that.

Take a look at the galaxy on the left. What we are seeing is an extremely massive yellow elliptical galaxy which acts as a cosmic lens, concentrating the light from a blue starburst background galaxy and bending it into an almost complete ring.

The lensed blue background galaxy is about 10.3 billion light-years away. In principle, it is possible to learn the ages of the stars that gave this galaxy its blue light. It might well be that these stars are about 10 million years old. But of course, since the galaxy is more than 10 billion light-years away, the individual stars that gave this galaxy its blue light are all dead and gone by now.

We have no way of knowing what this blue galaxy looks like "now". We have no way of knowing what kind of stars the galaxy is made of "now". We can only say what kind of stars emitted the light from the galaxy that is reaching us "now". And that light was emitted by young stars, which were perhaps 10 million years old at the time.

So we are right to say that the lensed blue galaxy is full of young stars about 10 million years old.

Ann

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:53 am

MarkBour wrote:Very basic question. I have been told that for distant galaxies, we "cannot resolve individual stars". And I saw a recent Hubble image that managed to resolve a huge number of stars in the neighboring Andromeda Galaxy -- sort of, or barely. There were so many dots, that this impressive achievement appeared to confirm the fact for more distant galaxies.

My question, then, is: In an image such as this, what are the dots that one sees? Okay, okay, they're photons hitting a detector. But if we could magically zoom in at will, what would happen to these dots? Is every one of them likely a composite of numerous nearly-aligned stars?
This is not a distant galaxy. 15 million ly is close enough for Hubble to resolve lots of individual stars. The hot blue stars in this galaxy are far enough apart that they are distinct from each other and stand out from the much denser (and unresolved) background of dimmer stars.

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by MarkBour » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:25 am

Very basic question. I have been told that for distant galaxies, we "cannot resolve individual stars". And I saw a recent Hubble image that managed to resolve a huge number of stars in the neighboring Andromeda Galaxy -- sort of, or barely. There were so many dots, that this impressive achievement appeared to confirm the fact for more distant galaxies.

My question, then, is: In an image such as this, what are the dots that one sees? Okay, okay, they're photons hitting a detector. But if we could magically zoom in at will, what would happen to these dots? Is every one of them likely a composite of numerous nearly-aligned stars?

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Boomer12k » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:51 am

A VERY stunning image....and a close up. Looks like a Ring Galaxy. (In fact it is classified as such as well as a Starburst), it has two distinct rings, the one shown here close in, and one further out, and even a THIRD further out... With MUCH star formation. I am thinking several mergers...
There are star streams as shown in this APOD image...thus lots of surrounding mass to disturb the inner parts to star formation. And MAYBE disrupt, or disperse the Dark Matter, so it does not appear to be around??? (There are models of dispersing DM during collisions, some have been APODs). Maybe Dark Matter only RE-accumulates AFTER a galaxy "settles down"....MAYBE attracting Dark Matter in a side dimension...and so Dark Matter does not react with much "over here"...

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap100114.html


:---[===] *

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:03 am

BMAONE23 wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
Bryan wrote:I'm confused- if Messier 94 is 15 million light years away, how can we be seeing the very large blue stars that are 'only' 10 million years old? Wouldn't that mean that their light wouldn't have made it here yet?
Because we ignore light travel time. No matter how far away something is, we generally consider that we are seeing it "now".
So we are really seeing the light of 25 million year old stars as they appeared when those stars were 10 million years old
In a sense. But there's no value in thinking of things that way. How they appear to us is effectively how they are (and indeed, in most Special Relativity scenarios, they are taken as the same). "Now" is a slippery idea in a universe where points are causally linked only at the speed of light.

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by BMAONE23 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:50 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Bryan wrote:I'm confused- if Messier 94 is 15 million light years away, how can we be seeing the very large blue stars that are 'only' 10 million years old? Wouldn't that mean that their light wouldn't have made it here yet?
Because we ignore light travel time. No matter how far away something is, we generally consider that we are seeing it "now".
So we are really seeing the light of 25 million year old stars as they appeared when those stars were 10 million years old

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:33 pm

ta152h0 wrote:and this " dark matter " thing doesn't seem to " darken " this light
Since one of the defining characteristics of dark matter is that it doesn't interact with light, that does make good sense.

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by neufer » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:18 pm


Bryan wrote:
I'm confused- if Messier 94 is 15 million light years away, how can we be seeing the very large blue stars that are 'only' 10 million years old? Wouldn't that mean that their light wouldn't have made it here yet?
Messier 94 is in the Canes Venatici constellation so those large blue stars are actually 70 million hunting doggy years old.

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by ta152h0 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:17 pm

and this " dark matter " thing doesn't seem to " darken " this light

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:46 pm

Bryan wrote:I'm confused- if Messier 94 is 15 million light years away, how can we be seeing the very large blue stars that are 'only' 10 million years old? Wouldn't that mean that their light wouldn't have made it here yet?
Because we ignore light travel time. No matter how far away something is, we generally consider that we are seeing it "now".

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Wadsworth » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:01 pm

I'm blown away by the statement that all of the outer blue stars are under 10 million years old. It's like saying each of these stars is a one year old in human terms..

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Bryan » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:56 pm

I'm confused- if Messier 94 is 15 million light years away, how can we be seeing the very large blue stars that are 'only' 10 million years old? Wouldn't that mean that their light wouldn't have made it here yet?

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:20 pm

ta152h0 wrote:Mere 15 million light years away ?
Indeed. Only 0.03% of the way to the edge of the observable universe. Or put a little differently, there is 30 billion times more universe farther away from us than M94 than there is closer.

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by ta152h0 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:10 pm

Mere 15 million light years away ?

Re: APOD: Starburst Galaxy Messier 94 (2015 Oct 23)

by Ron-Astro Pharmacist » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:01 pm

It also has a flower appearance.
yellow_rose_against_a_blue_background-t2.jpg
What would today's APOD mean in rose talk? The unobtainable promise of a new beginning…

Might just fit Carl Keenan Seyfert's studies of galaxy colors. That he's the son of a pharmacist probably makes most pleased he chose astronomy over medicine with some forethought rather than hindsight. Not that having a galaxy type named after you is that big of a deal. :mrgreen:

Top