APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 30)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 30)

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 30)

by Ann » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:11 pm

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 30)

by neufer » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:48 pm

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by neufer » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:11 pm

Ron-Astro Pharmacist wrote:
Of course there is always the "Lawn Dart" method. Though I wouldn't want to fly on one
Elon Musk: 'I'd like to die on Mars, just not on impact.'

http://www.cagle.com/2015/09/water-on-mars-5/

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by Ron-Astro Pharmacist » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:48 pm

neufer wrote:
MarkBour wrote:
I think the next robotic craft sent to Mars perhaps ought to be a portable drilling rig. Pick a few likely spots and try going down 100 feet, if necessary. Actually, I'm thinking that NASA will become interested in drilling deeper on lots of Solar system bodies. But for Mars, there is a practical benefit in this -- feasibilty of a water well, because they're looking toward manned missions to the place.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/nasa-will-send-robot-drill-to-mars-in-2016/2012/08/20/43bf1980-eaef-11e1-9ddc-340d5efb1e9c_story.html wrote: NASA will send robot drill to Mars in 2016
By Brian Vastag August 20, 2012

<<In the wake of successfully dropping the SUV-size Curiosity rover on Mars this month, NASA will send another robot to the Red Planet in 2016 to drill into the planet’s crust and, for the first time, piece together a picture of the Martian interior. The $425 million robotic lander, named InSight [Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport], will be built and operated by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory at the California Institute of Technology.

A German-built drill nicknamed “The Mole” will pound 16 feet into the Martian crust to take the temperature of the planet, while a sensitive French-built seismometer will detect any Marsquakes. Together, the instruments will provide vital clues to how Mars formed. “We’ll be able to deduce the deep structure of Mars, which now is a total mystery,” Vane said. “That means all the way down to the core.”

Except for the drill and seismometer, which are new, InSight will be a near-copy of the Phoenix lander NASA dropped onto Mars in 2008, which found water ice near the Martian north pole.>>
Of course there is always the "Lawn Dart" method. Though I wouldn't want to fly on one
Land Dart.jpg
Land Dart.jpg (9.34 KiB) Viewed 1279 times
there seems some momentum to use their velocity to penetrate Mars's secrets.

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by Sawngrighter » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:51 pm

neufer wrote:
Sawngrighter wrote:
Why should snowfall and snowmelt on Mars NOT be normal?

.
  • Martian snow pack is only observed at the poles... where snow does fall "in the proper season".
Neufer perhaps your statement should read 'martian snow pack HAS only been observed at the poles.' How about a snowpack beneath a light layer of dust from a dust storm? Mars really is in the infancy of observation.

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by DavidLeodis » Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:39 pm

Does anyone please know when the image was taken? The "Horowitz Crater" in the explanation is a link to a photo of a similar looking terrain in a webpage headed "Recurring 'Lineae' on Slopes at Horowitz Crater" that had an image taken on October 21 2007, but I am unable to readily find the date when the APOD image was taken.

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by neufer » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:30 pm

MarkBour wrote:
I think the next robotic craft sent to Mars perhaps ought to be a portable drilling rig. Pick a few likely spots and try going down 100 feet, if necessary. Actually, I'm thinking that NASA will become interested in drilling deeper on lots of Solar system bodies. But for Mars, there is a practical benefit in this -- feasibilty of a water well, because they're looking toward manned missions to the place.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/nasa-will-send-robot-drill-to-mars-in-2016/2012/08/20/43bf1980-eaef-11e1-9ddc-340d5efb1e9c_story.html wrote: NASA will send robot drill to Mars in 2016
By Brian Vastag August 20, 2012

<<In the wake of successfully dropping the SUV-size Curiosity rover on Mars this month, NASA will send another robot to the Red Planet in 2016 to drill into the planet’s crust and, for the first time, piece together a picture of the Martian interior. The $425 million robotic lander, named InSight [Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport], will be built and operated by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory at the California Institute of Technology.

A German-built drill nicknamed “The Mole” will pound 16 feet into the Martian crust to take the temperature of the planet, while a sensitive French-built seismometer will detect any Marsquakes. Together, the instruments will provide vital clues to how Mars formed. “We’ll be able to deduce the deep structure of Mars, which now is a total mystery,” Vane said. “That means all the way down to the core.”

Except for the drill and seismometer, which are new, InSight will be a near-copy of the Phoenix lander NASA dropped onto Mars in 2008, which found water ice near the Martian north pole.>>

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by MarkBour » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:09 pm

Although not shown in the depiction in today's APOD, the actual images I saw in the first link in the caption, all have a common characteristic. They show a top-of-hill rocky region, then a smooth sandy sloped region below it. In these, the RSLs form growing down in the sand.

I am reminded first of all of being at the beach and how water can move through the sand. These RSLs may be just in the sand, right up at its surface, but not really exposed on top of it. They could be darkening the sand simply by their presence in it. As they evaporate away, the sand will return to its light color, and the sand isn't actually moving in the process. However, evaporation from within will cause the sand there to depress.

Meanwhile, back to the large rocks. I would not be surprised if these rocks are sitting on top of subsurface liquid sources, perhaps some of significant volume (I guess probably water). The rocks may act as "heating stones" in RSL season. They absorb and retain enough heat that they are warming the area below them, and the resulting melt is being more or less squished out of the sides by their weight.

So, those were my wild speculations for today. Sooner or later one of them ought to turn out correct!

Less speculative, I think is the idea that in some places we should expect to find water underground on Mars. I think the next robotic craft sent to Mars perhaps ought to be a portable drilling rig. Pick a few likely spots and try going down 100 feet, if necessary. Actually, I'm thinking that NASA will become interested in drilling deeper on lots of Solar system bodies. But for Mars, there is a practical benefit in this -- feasibilty of a water well, because they're looking toward manned missions to the place.

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by Astronymus » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:39 am

saturno2 wrote:Very very interesting
On Mars possibly there is liquid salty water.
On Mars possibly there is life of some form.
Virus, archaea, bacterias ??
It's life, Jim. But not as we know it. :wink:

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by neufer » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:33 am


saturno2 wrote:
Very very interesting
On Mars possibly there is liquid salty water.
On Mars possibly there is life of some form.
Virus, archaea, bacterias ??
------ :rocketship:
What Kinds of Life Forms Could Actually Live on Mars?

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by saturno2 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:51 pm

Very very interesting
On Mars possibly there is liquid salty water.
On Mars possibly there is life of some form.
Virus, archaea, bacterias ??

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by Sawngrighter » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:18 pm

Ron-Astro Pharmacist wrote:Bacteria on Mars would have a unique composition from anything that Earth may have evolved.
Not necessarily. If Mars once had a planet wide ocean, the bacteria could be remarkably identical. By the way .. bacteria can make minerals .. http://openwetware.org/images/2/2c/Enca ... Paper5.pdf .. so 'earth' could slowly rise up from the sea. Limestone is, after all, simply crushed seashells. Marble is simply crushed limestone.

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by BMAONE23 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:10 pm

hoohaw wrote:Is the vertical scale in the photo exaggerated?
Yes, by a scale of 1.5. It would be nice to have roll overs on these displaying an actual vertical height image as well as the exaggerated height images.

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by Ron-Astro Pharmacist » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:09 pm

neufer wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_%28spacecraft%29#Weather wrote: In September 2008 NASA's Phoenix lander discovered a snow variety of virga falling from Martian clouds.>>
I wished they'd spell "virga" as "verga". Some might misread it and think Phoenix had a really unexpected scoop. (Of course those bacteria might need some help on those really cold Martian nights)

Sorry. I bet I'm getting as annoying as those commercials. I'll put myself in the corner for a time out. Actually I will be gone for a while. As soon as I thought I read there was Viagra on Mars I suited up to head out.
The Viagrian.jpg
So what if it doesn't fit – it's the only one I could find on short notice. Maybe Andy Weir will write a sequel - "The Viagrian" The story of another intrepid astronaut who mistakenly went to Mars to find Viagra only to be stranded when the rest of the female crew left him – on purpose - when he somehow found some! This story doesn't have a happy ending though it could be modified in a different genre. :oops:

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by hoohaw » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:33 pm

Is the vertical scale in the photo exaggerated?

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by Steve Dutch » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:24 pm

Forget the water. Who's making all those dune buggy tracks on the left side of the hill?

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by daddyo » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:18 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:
Gary S wrote:
GoJoe wrote:It looks to me like it could also be rocks crumbling and rolling down the side disturbing lighter colored dust on the surface. Since it is seasonal, perhaps the temperature change causes the rock to expand and contract which makes them crumble. Just a thought.
I thought of crumbling darker sediments too - they could contain water ice as a matrix glue. Then the summer "heat" would sublimate some ice away, releasing small rock fragments to roll down the slope to create the linear features(?) This process would not require any liquid water. I don't see any eroded gullies in the image.
With the exception that the Proposed "Crumbling Dark Sediments" would remain dark for far longer than a couple of months. The only mechanisms that could lighten the soil appearance over the course of a couple months time is:
Drying damp soil (damp soil is almost always darker than it's dry counterpart)
Being overlain by dust (would require Dust transport of sufficient quantity in the region at that specific time)
Reaction to fairly strong radiation source can also affect soil solor
I like your ideas of crumbling & rolling material causing the streaks, it has more of that appearance to me. The boulders would clear topsoil too and perhaps what lay underneath is slightly damp, causing the hydrated signature. Maybe it's this warming hydrated material that freed the boulders in the first place. The teltale signature of boulders rolling/sliding is the fixed width of the paths. Someone needs to build a physical model and try to match what's seen.

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by BMAONE23 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:23 pm

Gary S wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
GoJoe wrote:It looks to me like it could also be rocks crumbling and rolling down the side disturbing lighter colored dust on the surface. Since it is seasonal, perhaps the temperature change causes the rock to expand and contract which makes them crumble. Just a thought.
To be clear, the hypothesis that this involves liquid water is only partly based on the morphological evidence. The strongest part of the argument comes from the chemical analysis, not the visual appearance.
I thought of crumbling darker sediments too - they could contain water ice as a matrix glue. Then the summer "heat" would sublimate some ice away, releasing small rock fragments to roll down the slope to create the linear features(?) This process would not require any liquid water. I don't see any eroded gullies in the image.
With the exception that the Proposed "Crumbling Dark Sediments" would remain dark for far longer than a couple of months. The only mechanisms that could lighten the soil appearance over the course of a couple months time is:
Drying damp soil (damp soil is almost always darker than it's dry counterpart)
Being overlain by dust (would require Dust transport of sufficient quantity in the region at that specific time)
Reaction to fairly strong radiation source can also affect soil solor

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by jandomc » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:55 pm

Regarding perchlorate salts deposited on Mars, two small observations further to those above are pertinent. Conversion of chloride to chlorate requires UV as stated but also an oxidant. This can't surely be oxygen. Can you enlighten us further? Secondly, chlorate is mono-ionic - i.e. ClO4- not double minus as written above.

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by neufer » Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:40 pm

Sawngrighter wrote:
Why should snowfall and snowmelt on Mars NOT be normal?

Sublimation could put water into the atmosphere, water which could fall as snow in proper season. Martian spring and summer temperatures would allow the snow to melt. I really don't see any big mystery.
  • Martian snow pack is only observed at the poles... where snow does fall "in the proper season".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_%28spacecraft%29#Weather wrote:
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
<<The Phoenix lander descended on Mars [68°N 234°E] on May 25, 2008. Snow was observed to fall from cirrus clouds. The clouds formed at a level in the atmosphere that was around −65 °C, so the clouds would have to be composed of water-ice, rather than carbon dioxide-ice (dry ice) because, at the low pressure of the martian atmosphere, the temperature for forming carbon dioxide ice is much lower—less than −120 °C. As a result of the mission, it is now believed that water ice (snow) would have accumulated later in the year at this location. This represents a milestone in understanding Martian weather. Wind speeds ranged from 11 to 58 km per hour. The usual average speed was 36 km per hour. These speeds seem high, but the atmosphere of Mars is very thin—less than 1% of the Earth's—and so did not exert much force on the spacecraft. The highest temperature measured during the mission was −19.6 °C, while the coldest was −97.7 °C.>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virga wrote:
<<In meteorology, virga is an observable streak or shaft of precipitation that falls from a cloud but evaporates or sublimes before reaching the ground. At high altitudes the precipitation falls mainly as ice crystals before melting and finally evaporating; this is often due to compressional heating, because the air pressure increases closer to the ground. In September 2008 NASA's Phoenix lander discovered a snow variety of virga falling from Martian clouds.>>
http://www.space.com/17583-mars-snow-carbon-dioxide-discovery.html wrote:
Snow on Mars: NASA Spacecraft Spots 'Dry Ice' Snowflakes
by SPACE.com Staff | September 14, 2012 07:30am ET

<<A spacecraft orbiting Mars has detected carbon dioxide snow falling on the Red Planet, making Mars the only body in the solar system known to host this weird weather phenomenon. Researchers have calculated that carbon dioxide snow particles on Mars are roughly the size of a human red blood cell.

The snow on Mars fell from clouds around the planet's south pole during the Martian winter spanning 2006 and 2007, with scientists discovering it only after sifting through observations by NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO). The Martian south pole hosts a frozen carbon dioxide — or "dry ice" — cap year-round, and the new discovery may help explain how it formed and persists, researchers said. "These are the first definitive detections of carbon-dioxide snow clouds," lead author Paul Hayne, of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, Calif., said in a statement. "We firmly establish the clouds are composed of carbon dioxide — flakes of Martian air — and they are thick enough to result in snowfall accumulation at the surface." "The infrared spectra signature of the clouds viewed from this angle is clearly carbon-dioxide ice particles, and they extend to the surface," Kass added. "By observing this way, the Mars Climate Sounder is able to distinguish the particles in the atmosphere from the dry ice on the surface."

Astronomers still aren't entirely sure how the dry ice sustaining Mars' south polar cap — the only place where frozen carbon dioxide exists year-round on the planet's surface — is deposited. It could come from snowfall, or the stuff may freeze out of the air at ground level, researchers said.>>

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by Ron-Astro Pharmacist » Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:25 pm

I had no idea that slippery slopes themselves were so controversial. Let alone the other ethical metaphors listed on the link. Maybe I'd better stick with attempts at a humorous approach like, "Yea. They are ski trails. Just look at the jump on the left..." Are they really dust devil trails? I don't suppose they are animal trails.

Probably not. :no:

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by ThePiper » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:24 pm

Guest wrote:There are some grey linear features on the left slope of the hill in a grid-like pattern. Does anybody know what they are?
There is no doubt: Ski trails... :wink:

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by Ron-Astro Pharmacist » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:11 pm

Bacteria on Mars would have a unique composition from anything that Earth may have evolved. I would think we would be able to tell a Mars bacterium from an Earth bacterium easily once returned to Earth. Colonizing Mars with Earth bacteria is an ethical dilemma which will need debated prior to human colonization but I don't think it would confuse us long if we accidentally discovered a contaminant.

Of course bringing Mars bacteria back to Earth would constitute another debate. Looks like another slippery slope is likely to develop.

Re: APOD: Seasonal Streaks Point to Recent on... (2015 Sep 3

by Sawngrighter » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:59 pm

Why should snowfall and snowmelt on Mars NOT be normal? We've known for a long time there is lots of water on Mars, and new evidence suggests a historical planet wide ocean.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... n-on-mars/

Sublimation could put water into the atmosphere, water which could fall as snow in proper season. Martian spring and summer temperatures would allow the snow to melt. I really don't see any big mystery.

But if that idea is not acceptable, then how about the possibility that eruptions from superhuge Olympus Mons simply covered the seas/oceans/ocean on Mars with minerals, with water seeping upwards to the surface? https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/w ... rd.309946/

Size of Olympus Mons. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=oly ... ORM=IQFRBA

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