APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by Ann » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:36 pm

lbeckham wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: Clusters demonstrate Newtonian physics. And you need nothing more than Newtonian physics to numerically model them, and the models behave just like what we observe.
So, "dark matter" (what the hell THAT is) has a no effect on globular clusters all?
Globular clusters are not generally thought to contain much dark matter. See this paper about NGC 2419, a distant Milky Way globular cluster that was the subject of an APOD recently.

But unexpectedly, astronomers have found what appears to be large quantities of dark matter in some of the globulars of Centaurus A, NGC 5128, recently.

Ann

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by lbeckham » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:13 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Clusters demonstrate Newtonian physics. And you need nothing more than Newtonian physics to numerically model them, and the models behave just like what we observe.
So, "dark matter" (what the hell THAT is) has a no effect on globular clusters all?

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by geckzilla » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:46 am

Finally got an answer. An unlisted filter was used to compose the image. The ghosts are found in some narrowband data, this time F656N. No wonder it doesn't look anything like the filter ghosts from any broadband filter. I've learned something new and that is that filter ghosts for narrowband filters are more like lines which form circles while ghosts for broadband filters tend to be much more diffuse. Nature was supplying the clue all along.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by geckzilla » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:25 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
geckzilla wrote:Yeah, but the thing is that I can't find the artifacts in the raw data. Either I'm looking at the wrong data or they were introduced. I've seen a lot of these before and none look quite like these ones. Not to say these can't be ghosts like the ones in the reference, but I'm leaning slightly toward them being introduced, at least partially, by some sort of post processing method.
That's interesting. How sure are you that you have the correct raw data? I've had problems before tracking down things in the data archive. I wish that released images like this included that information. It's not always obvious.
I have looked at all of the data that is available in the HLA for F814W at the time of this image release (21 April 2014). If I recall correctly, I even downloaded the FITS files just to make sure it wasn't somehow invisible in the interactive previews. Another thing which makes me suspicious of these is that I am very familiar with Hubble's artifacts and I know these are a little strange. Impossibly strange? No, I could still be wrong. Another possibility is that data from another observatory was used to fill in the places where the charge bleeds were. That would help to explain their strange appearance and and absence from Hubble's raw data. It's a little sloppier than usual of them not to mention it, but I wouldn't say it's entirely uncharacteristic of these "pretty picture" image releases which aren't very important in a broader sense. My statements are very speculative. What I would really like to do is contact the person who processed the image. I might know who did it or could at least point me to who did it, so I can try asking them again.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:02 pm

geckzilla wrote:Yeah, but the thing is that I can't find the artifacts in the raw data. Either I'm looking at the wrong data or they were introduced. I've seen a lot of these before and none look quite like these ones. Not to say these can't be ghosts like the ones in the reference, but I'm leaning slightly toward them being introduced, at least partially, by some sort of post processing method.
That's interesting. How sure are you that you have the correct raw data? I've had problems before tracking down things in the data archive. I wish that released images like this included that information. It's not always obvious.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by geckzilla » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:57 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:For the HST (or any telescope with a circular aperture and a circular central obstruction), donuts are the product of out-of-focus point sources. Dark donuts are usually dust shadows, light donuts are usually internal reflections.

In this case, I think the donuts are likely reflections off one of the 814W filter surfaces. I can't think of any way that using more than one image could cause them. See this reference for a discussion of the different surfaces in the WFC3 (including filters) that can produce these kinds of ghosts.
Yeah, but the thing is that I can't find the artifacts in the raw data. Either I'm looking at the wrong data or they were introduced. I've seen a lot of these before and none look quite like these ones. Not to say these can't be ghosts like the ones in the reference, but I'm leaning slightly toward them being introduced, at least partially, by some sort of post processing method.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by DavidLeodis » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:17 pm

Thanks geckzilla (and Chris again) for your help :). I had not thought to look up a previous use of the image, which I have now found was the APOD of April 25 2014 in the discussion of which there are comments about the image artefacts.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:05 pm

geckzilla wrote:
DavidLeodis wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:Well, they are only visible in the red channel, which makes me think they are out-of-focus reflections of the bright stars (donut shaped because that's what the aperture looks like) visible only with the 814W filter. Possibly the AR coating on that filter is less efficient in the IR? The offset could be caused by the tilt of the filter, either incidental or by design. In any case, they're clearly imaging artifacts.
Thanks Chris :). It was their donut shapes that particularly caught my interest. Mmmmm, I fancy a :doughnut: or two now.
We had a discussion about these donut artifacts the last time this image was run. I have looked all through the raw data to find out where they came from but never quite figured it out. If I had to guess I would say it came about by combining two F814W filters because all of the exposures have a lot of charge bleeds in them. So what you can do is combine a couple of them taken while the telescope was at different orientations and fill in the white streaks with real data from a second dataset. Somehow, some way, those annuli ended up there. I can't ask the image processor because ESA never credits them, much to my annoyance.
For the HST (or any telescope with a circular aperture and a circular central obstruction), donuts are the product of out-of-focus point sources. Dark donuts are usually dust shadows, light donuts are usually internal reflections.

In this case, I think the donuts are likely reflections off one of the 814W filter surfaces. I can't think of any way that using more than one image could cause them. See this reference for a discussion of the different surfaces in the WFC3 (including filters) that can produce these kinds of ghosts.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by geckzilla » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:20 pm

DavidLeodis wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
DavidLeodis wrote:Several of the stars have a red ring-like object to their left (some better seen in the enlarged image when clicking on the APOD when online). I wonder if they are image artefacts but if so I'm curious why they only seem to be on the immediate left of the stars.
Well, they are only visible in the red channel, which makes me think they are out-of-focus reflections of the bright stars (donut shaped because that's what the aperture looks like) visible only with the 814W filter. Possibly the AR coating on that filter is less efficient in the IR? The offset could be caused by the tilt of the filter, either incidental or by design. In any case, they're clearly imaging artifacts.
Thanks Chris :). It was their donut shapes that particularly caught my interest. Mmmmm, I fancy a :doughnut: or two now.
We had a discussion about these donut artifacts the last time this image was run. I have looked all through the raw data to find out where they came from but never quite figured it out. If I had to guess I would say it came about by combining two F814W filters because all of the exposures have a lot of charge bleeds in them. So what you can do is combine a couple of them taken while the telescope was at different orientations and fill in the white streaks with real data from a second dataset. Somehow, some way, those annuli ended up there. I can't ask the image processor because ESA never credits them, much to my annoyance.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by DavidLeodis » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:56 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
DavidLeodis wrote:Several of the stars have a red ring-like object to their left (some better seen in the enlarged image when clicking on the APOD when online). I wonder if they are image artefacts but if so I'm curious why they only seem to be on the immediate left of the stars.
Well, they are only visible in the red channel, which makes me think they are out-of-focus reflections of the bright stars (donut shaped because that's what the aperture looks like) visible only with the 814W filter. Possibly the AR coating on that filter is less efficient in the IR? The offset could be caused by the tilt of the filter, either incidental or by design. In any case, they're clearly imaging artifacts.
Thanks Chris :). It was their donut shapes that particularly caught my interest. Mmmmm, I fancy a :doughnut: or two now.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:07 pm

DavidLeodis wrote:Several of the stars have a red ring-like object to their left (some better seen in the enlarged image when clicking on the APOD when online). I wonder if they are image artefacts but if so I'm curious why they only seem to be on the immediate left of the stars.
Well, they are only visible in the red channel, which makes me think they are out-of-focus reflections of the bright stars (donut shaped because that's what the aperture looks like) visible only with the 814W filter. Possibly the AR coating on that filter is less efficient in the IR? The offset could be caused by the tilt of the filter, either incidental or by design. In any case, they're clearly imaging artifacts.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by DavidLeodis » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:45 pm

Several of the stars have a red ring-like object to their left (some better seen in the enlarged image when clicking on the APOD when online). I wonder if they are image artefacts but if so I'm curious why they only seem to be on the immediate left of the stars.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by Boomer12k » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:52 am

FLPhotoCatcher wrote:The formation of globular clusters may not be understood, but is the movement of its stars understood? Wasn't there something about some globular clusters condensing in the center, while others did not?

Also, if you look at the full sized photo, you will see several lines of stars that shouldn't be there if the star movements were random. I know we are good at seeing patterns, even in randomness, but the lines ARE real patterns that you could describe mathematically. I might expect one line of 12 or so stars of similar spacing and brightness, but there are over a dozen, some composed of over 20 stars. A few of the star lines are surrounded by areas of fewer stars than the average apparent density. Could this be caused somewhat by image processing?
What we see as a straight line in 2 dimensions...may not be a straight line in 3 dimensions. As this is a picture of a ball of stars, they only appear "flat" and "straight". The stars are actually closer, or further away and in an arc...

:---[===] *

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by Boomer12k » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:47 am

It always amaze me how long these stars have lasted...

:---[===] *

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by geckzilla » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:07 pm

Ann wrote:
redstar58 wrote:Concerning the galaxy located behind M5, has an NGC number been assigned?
Almost certainly not. There are a lot of M5 stars surrounding the galaxy, which is clearly quite distant and therefore (apparently) very small and faint. The V magnitude of M5 itself is about +6.65, and the brightest stars in it are about magnitude +12. Clearly the galaxy is not as bright as the brightest stars of M5. In view of the fact that the NGC catalogue was put together in 1888, chances are overwhelming that the galaxy had not been discovered at that time.
It's not even in NED... It's very, very hard to see a galaxy through such a bright foreground object.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by Ann » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:14 pm

Speaking of blue stragglers, there is one in the nearby universe, Algol in Perseus. The more massive component of a tight binary star turned into a red giant, filled its Roche lobe, and began spilling matter onto its smaller, more compact companion. The mass transfer went on until the former secondary star became the primary, now a blue B-type star about 90 times brighter than the Sun in V light. The former primary, by contrast, is now a shrunken, too small and faint red giant, only 4.5 times brighter than the Sun in V light.

Ann

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:21 pm

tomatoherd wrote:I suppose since Galileo was at Pisa gravitation has continued to prove it just doesn't conform to human presuppositions.
It conforms to mine quite nicely. I don't think Newtonian gravitation deviates much from human intuition, and where it does, it doesn't take very much knowledge to overcome that.
But it appears at least I am not alone in perplexity over the formation stage.
There's hope that the next generation of space telescopes will let us observe them in the formation process.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by FLPhotoCatcher » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:16 pm

The formation of globular clusters may not be understood, but is the movement of its stars understood? Wasn't there something about some globular clusters condensing in the center, while others did not?

Also, if you look at the full sized photo, you will see several lines of stars that shouldn't be there if the star movements were random. I know we are good at seeing patterns, even in randomness, but the lines ARE real patterns that you could describe mathematically. I might expect one line of 12 or so stars of similar spacing and brightness, but there are over a dozen, some composed of over 20 stars. A few of the star lines are surrounded by areas of fewer stars than the average apparent density. Could this be caused somewhat by image processing?

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by Ann » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:31 pm

redstar58 wrote:Concerning the galaxy located behind M5, has an NGC number been assigned?
Almost certainly not. There are a lot of M5 stars surrounding the galaxy, which is clearly quite distant and therefore (apparently) very small and faint. The V magnitude of M5 itself is about +6.65, and the brightest stars in it are about magnitude +12. Clearly the galaxy is not as bright as the brightest stars of M5. In view of the fact that the NGC catalogue was put together in 1888, chances are overwhelming that the galaxy had not been discovered at that time.

Ann

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by tomatoherd » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:25 pm

Okay, Chris. I surrender.
I suppose since Galileo was at Pisa gravitation has continued to prove it just doesn't conform to human presuppositions.
But it appears at least I am not alone in perplexity over the formation stage.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:34 pm

tomatoherd wrote:But, I can understand formation of a disc galaxy out of a primordial mass/cloud. And its resultant components are mostly orbiting the galaxy's center in the same direction.
Only while the primordial disk structure is maintained. But that's not a stable structure, and the period of reasonable stability is related to the stellar density. So even in a disk galaxy, most of the stars are not orbiting on the same plane or in the same direction. Only in the disk itself do we see that, where the stars are far enough apart that they don't perturb each other much.
But I cannot wrap my head around how an even smaller mass could condense into individual components all moving in random directions (and be still so "unlumpy" after 13 billion years).
This is the lowest energy state for a multiple-body orbiting system. It's what every such system eventually evolves into: a spherical structure, with the components in randomly inclined orbits, and a density gradient from the center to the outside. It's exactly what you get when you numerically model a large number of particles which are gravitationally bound and are controlled only by Newtonian dynamics.

How they initially condense (or form) is an entirely different question, which remains unanswered. But once you have condensed structures, their behavior is understandable, and globulars are well understood in this respect.
But accretion discs move to center, mergers occur in galaxy groups, etc, etc. Why are clusters so stable?
Accretion disks behave as they do because of viscous interactions (electromagnetic forces are important). Galaxies are much more diffuse, and their interactions occur over scales similar to their size (with the greatest part of the disruption occurring in the tenuous outer parts, not the cores). Globular clusters are very compact and located far from their parent galaxies with respect to their sizes. So they are not strongly influenced by tidal forces. They simply aren't exposed to much in the way of external perturbations. So most persist until they evaporate. Some, however, must be disrupted by tidal forces when they orbit too closely to a galaxy, or even come to close to another globular. But those are going to be statistically rare events.
And to me, 13 billion years is a loooong time.
To me, it's "we've only just begun".

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by redstar58 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:15 pm

Zoom in on the galaxy located behind M5, most likely, a number of the very small objects near the background galaxy in M5 are themselves globular clusters!

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by tomatoherd » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:12 pm

Chris:
thanks for your patient reply.
But, I can understand formation of a disc galaxy out of a primordial mass/cloud. And its resultant components are mostly orbiting the galaxy's center in the same direction. But I cannot wrap my head around how an even smaller mass could condense into individual components all moving in random directions (and be still so "unlumpy" after 13 billion years). It makes no sense.
I know there's no centrifugal momentum. That's why the quotes. But if the earth lost its tangential velocity suddenly, it would accelerate towards the sun. I know there's no frictional forces.
But accretion discs move to center, mergers occur in galaxy groups, etc, etc. Why are clusters so stable? I don't believe it. Yet I know Newton is not violated in observed clusters: each stellar orbit must perfectly balance the attractive force of gravity. It's the formation that boggles credibility.
And to me, 13 billion years is a loooong time.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by starsurfer » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:08 pm

Just like open clusters, I imagine globular clusters to be formed in huge starforming regions. There is speculation that some of the earliest nebulae in the universe were much larger than ones that we can see now.

Re: APOD: Hubble's Messier 5 (2015 Jun 20)

by redstar58 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:51 pm

Concerning the galaxy located behind M5, has an NGC number been assigned?

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