APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by neufer » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:58 pm

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by Nitpicker » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:06 am

yahchanan wrote:Please, the three words (high, tall, large) are clearly defined, and they do not mean the same thing (whether speaking of mountains or men). Maybe that is news to y'all? Anyone considering himself a scientist should be precise enough to use the correct word, and qualify it when necessary.

BTW, here is a fun link, since someone brought up McKinley (I am not connected to this website):
http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/mcki ... n-everest/

Yahchanan

Why is it other people get away with putting their personal website links down here, but mine is erased? Am I being discriminated against?
Your stories are tall and your points highly dubious and largely irrelevant. I'm sorry that I can't be a bigger man, but I've decided to return your great rudeness in kind. :spam:

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by geckzilla » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:52 am

You are a guest. Linking to websites not pertaining to the conversation is seen as a form of advertisement or spam. Registered users may make use of the forum's signature function or the website field of their profiles.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by yahchanan » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:40 am

Please, the three words (high, tall, large) are clearly defined, and they do not mean the same thing (whether speaking of mountains or men). Maybe that is news to y'all? Anyone considering himself a scientist should be precise enough to use the correct word, and qualify it when necessary.

BTW, here is a fun link, since someone brought up McKinley (I am not connected to this website):
http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/mcki ... n-everest/

Yahchanan

Why is it other people get away with putting their personal website links down here, but mine is erased? Am I being discriminated against?

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by Nitpicker » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:28 am

geckzilla wrote:This time no one came in and condemned us for using the word Everest to describe the mountain. Any takers?
Everest or "Holy Mother" (when translated from the Nepalese and Tibetan names) versus Husband Hill. Nothing wrong with that. One big happily family.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:16 am

yahchanan wrote:I did not say anything about how "high" Mauna Kea is.
Tall, high, and large are all synonyms, depending on context.

The meaning of the caption usage is clear, and I certainly wouldn't argue there is anything wrong with it.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by owlice » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:05 am

And maybe that windmill icon could be tilted.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by geckzilla » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:04 am

This time no one came in and condemned us for using the word Everest to describe the mountain. Any takers?

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by Nitpicker » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:58 am

yahchanan wrote:No?
Yes and no.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by yahchanan » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:54 am

> There are, of course, different and equally valid definitions of "highest" when referring to mountains. Mauna Kea is only the highest in one sense, as is Everest.

I did not say anything about how "high" Mauna Kea is. Please do not mix terms.

When one says the "highest mountain on Earth", "highest" has to refer to the distance from the center of the Earth. Everest is wonderful, but it is not as high as Chimborazo. When referring to Everest as the highest, one should qualify the statement by pointing out the sense that it is 'merely' the "highest above sea level". Similar to the way you qualify the ages old question "what is the highest place in Florida?"

But this time the conversation is about the "tallest". "Tallest" has to refer to the elevation from the base to the summit. There is really no question. Only Mauna Loa comes close to being as tall as Mauna Kea.

Incidentally, Mauna Loa is the "largest" mountain on Earth. "Largest" has to refer to volume.

No?

Yahchanan

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by Nitpicker » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:38 am

yahchaanan wrote:APOD wrote:

> Everest panorama, in honor of the view from the tallest mountain on Earth

Sorry, but no. The tallest mountain on Earth is Mauna Kea.

You remember me from last time this subject came up.

The highest mountain on Earth is not Everest, either.

Cheers!

Yahchanan
Picky, picky! You're forgetting relativity. Mountain heights are commonly measured relative to sea level, because it gives the best indication of the kind of atmosphere at the peak. (Actually, I just made up that reason, but it sounds about right.) I've never heard of mountain climbers scaling Maunu Kea from its base on the sea floor, or Chimborazo from the centre of the Earth. However, some have scaled Everest from sea level. I have also heard that Denali is the hardest climb, both because of its height from base to peak and its very high latitude. One used to be able to drive to the top of Mount Kosciuszko, but they closed the final part of the road a few decades ago, perhaps to make it seem higher, or perhaps because of environmental concerns.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:31 am

yahchaanan wrote:APOD wrote:

> Everest panorama, in honor of the view from the tallest mountain on Earth

Sorry, but no. The tallest mountain on Earth is Mauna Kea.

You remember me from last time this subject came up.

The highest mountain on Earth is not Everest, either.
There are, of course, different and equally valid definitions of "highest" when referring to mountains. Mauna Kea is only the highest in one sense, as is Everest.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by owlice » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:25 am

We need a windmill icon.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by yahchaanan » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:06 am

APOD wrote:

> Everest panorama, in honor of the view from the tallest mountain on Earth

Sorry, but no. The tallest mountain on Earth is Mauna Kea.

You remember me from last time this subject came up.

The highest mountain on Earth is not Everest, either.

Cheers!

Yahchanan

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:02 am

rgendler wrote:It seems certain that any habitable planet will have its periods of extreme stress (mass extinction events). These have been crucial for the evolution of higher life forms on Earth. That said there's a very big difference between a planet like Earth which has periodically brought its biosphere to the brink and back, and a planet like Mars which may have brought its biosphere "over" the brink to a premature end.
What is "premature"? Of course, we don't know how easily life forms, but if Earth is taken as an example, there's no reason to think it couldn't have formed on Mars, and existed there for quite a long while (potentially until now, although that's not what I'm talking about). Conditions on Earth will only be suitable for life for another billion years or so- billions of years before our Sun burns out. Will the loss of our biosystem be seen as premature?

Without worrying about the actual probability of life forming, I'd be inclined to simply recognize that the habitable period of a small world is likely to be shorter than that of a larger one, at least for surface and near-surface life.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by rgendler » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:54 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
rgendler wrote:Sure...anythings possible. I'm not a planetary geologist but maybe someone here knows the answer. If a planet (or moon) lacks suffient means (magnetosphere) to hold on to an atmosphere, it's liquid water would also evaporate quickly. Could an ice covered liquid water ocean exist under these conditions?
You mean like Europa? It could very well have liquid oceans beneath its ice.

Even without a magnetosphere, a planet might have an atmosphere for a billion years or more, like Mars. Plenty of time for life to develop. And every planet has a finite habitable lifetime.

It seems certain that any habitable planet will have its periods of extreme stress (mass extinction events). These have been crucial for the evolution of higher life forms on Earth. That said there's a very big difference between a planet like Earth which has periodically brought its biosphere to the brink and back, and a planet like Mars which may have brought its biosphere "over" the brink to a premature end. I have no evidence but if I had to wager I'd say that for every earth-like planet capable of sustaining life for billions of years..........there may be millions if not billions of Mars type planets which could not sustain life and squashed it before it could leave the crib.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:23 am

rgendler wrote:Sure...anythings possible. I'm not a planetary geologist but maybe someone here knows the answer. If a planet (or moon) lacks suffient means (magnetosphere) to hold on to an atmosphere, it's liquid water would also evaporate quickly. Could an ice covered liquid water ocean exist under these conditions?
You mean like Europa? It could very well have liquid oceans beneath its ice.

Even without a magnetosphere, a planet might have an atmosphere for a billion years or more, like Mars. Plenty of time for life to develop. And every planet has a finite habitable lifetime.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by ibmelrod » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:41 am

Fabulous picture that brought to mind Arthur C. Clarke's short story 'Transit Of Earth'.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by neufer » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:44 pm

rgendler wrote:
neufer wrote:
OTOH, consider all those billions of icy moons out there heated by tidal forces with life evolving under the sea.
Sure...anythings possible. I'm not a planetary geologist but maybe someone here knows the answer. If a planet (or moon) lacks suffient means (magnetosphere) to hold on to an atmosphere, it's liquid water would also evaporate quickly. Could an ice covered liquid water ocean exist under these conditions?

http://www.iflscience.com/space/without ... -be-doomed
A planet large enough to have tidal heated liquid ocean icy moons would probably sport a strong enough magnetosphere to protect those moons.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by rgendler » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:28 pm

neufer wrote:
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
rgendler wrote:
Two things strike me about this landscape panorama. One....it appears utterly lifeless and its starkness stands in contrast to the lush and biologically rich planet we live on. Two....what an incredible engineering feat it is to launch, land and sustain these probes. I'm in awe. Regarding its lifelessness I have to remind myself that even on earth the terrestrial landscape was similarly lifeless until after the Cambrian. Until that point all life on our planet evolved exclusively in the oceans. In that context the hope for finding evidence of life on Mars seems doomed because of its extremely thin atmosphere and absence of liquid water.
OTOH, consider all those billions of icy moons out there heated by tidal forces with life evolving under the sea.

Sure...anythings possible. I'm not a planetary geologist but maybe someone here knows the answer. If a planet (or moon) lacks suffient means (magnetosphere) to hold on to an atmosphere, it's liquid water would also evaporate quickly. Could an ice covered liquid water ocean exist under these conditions?
http://www.iflscience.com/space/without ... -be-doomed

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by neufer » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:54 pm

Click to play embedded YouTube video.
rgendler wrote:
Two things strike me about this landscape panorama. One....it appears utterly lifeless and its starkness stands in contrast to the lush and biologically rich planet we live on. Two....what an incredible engineering feat it is to launch, land and sustain these probes. I'm in awe. Regarding its lifelessness I have to remind myself that even on earth the terrestrial landscape was similarly lifeless until after the Cambrian. Until that point all life on our planet evolved exclusively in the oceans. In that context the hope for finding evidence of life on Mars seems doomed because of its extremely thin atmosphere and absence of liquid water.
OTOH, consider all those billions of icy moons out there heated by tidal forces with life evolving under the sea.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by rgendler » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:22 pm

Two things strike me about this landscape panorama. One....it appears utterly lifeless and its starkness stands in contrast to the lush and biologically rich planet we live on. Two....what an incredible engineering feat it is to launch, land and sustain these probes. I'm in awe. Regarding its lifelessness I have to remind myself that even on earth the terrestrial landscape was similarly lifeless until after the Cambrian. Until that point all life on our planet evolved exclusively in the oceans. In that context the hope for finding evidence of life on Mars seems doomed because of its extremely thin atmosphere and absence of liquid water.

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by geckzilla » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:26 pm

4321lynx wrote:What on earth, or rather on Mars, is the nearly perfect square near the centre of the picture when it is scrolled to extreme right? Is it a vehicle track/ "triumphal gate/ artefact? And if artefact, how do you explain it?
Not sure what else you could be referring to but these are very clearly vehicle tracks.
track.jpg
track.jpg (42.51 KiB) Viewed 17010 times

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by 4321lynx » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:10 pm

What on earth, or rather on Mars, is the nearly perfect square near the centre of the picture when it is scrolled to extreme right? Is it a vehicle track/ "triumphal gate/ artefact? And if artefact, how do you explain it?

Re: APOD: Everest Panorama from Mars (2013 Dec 08)

by neufer » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:43 pm

Czerno o wrote:
Praytell what's the approx distance to the far away peaks (brim?)

--
Czerno
NOT longing for a trip to Mars...
The wall brims of Thira crater about 20km away.

The wall of Gusev crater (about 80km away)
is lost in the Martian haze.

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