Starship Asterisk*

by **bystander** » Tue May 14, 2013 12:39 pm

isoparix wrote:I doubt that the Laws of Geometry need maintenance - they need to be obeyed! I think you're being rather casual with your use of the word 'size'.... If you change the distance, the apparent angular diameter changes. The absolute diameter does not change - and it's the absolute diameter that you are quoting.

The problem is that the distance is not known with certainty, but the angular diameter is fixed. As estimates of the distance change, so will the estimates of the absolute diameter.

by **isoparix** » Tue May 14, 2013 8:22 am

Borc wrote:
isoparix wrote:"At that estimated distance, the gorgeous island universe is about 100 thousand light-years across." Does it have a different width at some other distance....?
Sorta.
We measured how wide it looks to us from our solar system then measured the distance from us to it. Those two numbers can give us the gals diameter, but change the distance and the size would need to change to match in order to maintain the laws of geometry.
The ACTUAL size wouldn't change, just our measurement would (presumably) get better.

If I'm unclear holler, ill be more particular.

I doubt that the Laws of Geometry need maintenance - they need to be obeyed! I think you're being rather casual with your use of the word 'size'.... If you change the distance, the apparent angular diameter changes. The absolute diameter does not change - and it's the absolute diameter that you are quoting.

by **Ann** » Sat May 11, 2013 5:25 am

Boomer12k wrote: Are those BRIGHT spots around the red star forming regions 3 o'clock, and 8 o'clock star clusters? Globular Clusters? are they IN M77???

:---[===] *

They are certainly in M77, and I'd say that some of them are clusters. Many of them are probably individual stars. There are no globular clusters in this part of M77, since all the bright points of light here are young stars or clusters. Extremely rich young clusters are called populous clusters or blue populous clusters. The chemical composition of these young clusters is so different from the chemical composition of true globulars (which are rarely less than ten billion years old) that the young clusters are not called "globulars". In any case, the young clusters are very rarely as star-rich as true globulars. A Milky Way populous blue cluster is NGC 3603.

If you take a look at the the region around 8 o'clock in the APOD of M77, you can see that there are very many bright points of light there, but there is not much red nebulosity. I'd say that this part of M77 is a mostly spent region of star formation. There was a huge reservoir of gas here, but now most of it has either been converted into stars, or blown away by stellar winds and possible supernovae. There is a particularly bright point of light there, which is likely a large, bright cluster. Most of the other points of lights may well be individual stars.

Ann

by **bystander** » Sat May 11, 2013 1:23 am

neufer wrote:. http://www.universetoday.com/101054/hub ... essier-77/

http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=31042

by **neufer** » Sat May 11, 2013 12:29 am

. http://www.universetoday.com/101054/hub ... essier-77/

by **Boomer12k** » Fri May 10, 2013 10:24 pm

Maybe it is Messier 77....because there are 76 LESS MESSIER objects!

Or...Hmmmm....76...MORE MESSIER objects!!!

Wonderful picture from Hubble data, would LOVE to see a Hubble view of the whole thing.

Does anyone see the bearded face to OUR right of the core? Eyes, red nose, beard?
Lots of "spurs" like our neck of the woods. The Orion Spur...

If one were to look at this picture only...and then figure out the mass, and motions, speeds, etc...a person would end up with some wrong conclusions about this galaxy...as there is a whole bunch of missing data in this image, mainly the rest of the galaxy outside this close up shot. One might actually have to insert an unseen method to explain such conclusions...

"Mr. DeMille, I am ready for my close up!"

Are those BRIGHT spots around the red star forming regions 3 o'clock, and 8 o'clock star clusters? Globular Clusters? are they IN M77???

:---[===] *

by **avdhoeven** » Fri May 10, 2013 10:04 pm

Ann wrote:Congratulations, André, on the very fine processing job you did with the Hubble data of this galaxy!

Ann

Thanks a lot!

by **BMAONE23** » Fri May 10, 2013 7:26 pm

we certainly should be careful, what if they show up with a book titled "To Serve Man"

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

by **emc** » Fri May 10, 2013 7:01 pm

I’m not usually one to milk things (not true!), but I have gotten on a sort of self-induced quest to educate (especially scientists) in some small way as to the dangers of giving cute names to things that could have dire consequences in the broader scope of cosmic media in which there are many things that we know nothing about… such as space aliens. We are left to our wild-eyed imaginations and we seem to predominately base the “space alien” as super intelligent superior technologically but yet we are somehow able to defeat their aggression… RIGHT! Don’t believe everything you see coming out of Hollywood.

Ann, I agree with you, if space aliens can cross the cosmos in something less than millions of lifetimes, I think your milky white flag would be a practical approach… unless they don’t get the meaning and see it as an invitation to dine.

by **Beyond** » Fri May 10, 2013 6:34 pm

Ann wrote:
Artwork: Desert 9090
emc wrote:
if we weren’t messy we wouldn’t need combs… if we were any messier, we could have justification for changing our name… to perhaps "Messier-Than-77" which does have a kind of better ring than “Milky Way”… especially if you want to discourage alien aggression… what if the “scourge of the Universe” hostile aliens love milk products?

Photo: Barb Kampbell

Well... if these aliens came here (to the Milky Way) all the way from another galaxy (presumably M77), and if they came here (presumably to the Earth) because they not only love our Milky galaxy but because they are also thirsty for some of our milk, then I guess we might as well wave our milky white flag of surrender right away!

Ann

Yes indeedy

A Big white flag is just what those messy messier aliens will need to clean up the mess they make from munching on our Milky Way Bar. Which won't do our spiraling much good either.

by **Ann** » Fri May 10, 2013 5:36 pm

Artwork: Desert 9090

emc wrote:
if we weren’t messy we wouldn’t need combs… if we were any messier, we could have justification for changing our name… to perhaps "Messier-Than-77" which does have a kind of better ring than “Milky Way”… especially if you want to discourage alien aggression… what if the “scourge of the Universe” hostile aliens love milk products?

Photo: Barb Kampbell

Well... if these aliens came here (to the Milky Way) all the way from another galaxy (presumably M77), and if they came here (presumably to the Earth) because they not only love our Milky galaxy but because they are also thirsty for some of our milk, then I guess we might as well wave our milky white flag of surrender right away!

Ann

by **Beyond** » Fri May 10, 2013 5:20 pm

emc wrote:
neufer wrote:
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

emc wrote:
So beautiful… so intriguing… so far away… I can’t help but wonder if there are creatures there perhaps similar to us…
messy messy creatures… but who is messier?

Messy I disagree
if we weren’t messy we wouldn’t need combs… if we were any messier, we could have justification for changing our name… to perhaps "Messier-Than-77" which does have a kind of better ring than “Milky Way”… especially if you want to discourage alien aggression… what if the “scourge of the Universe” hostile aliens love milk products?

OR... Have a 'sweet' tooth

: bth_MilkyWayBar.jpg (8.1 KiB) Viewed 3132 times

by **Chris Peterson** » Fri May 10, 2013 5:04 pm

bmesser wrote:I'm confused - if this is Messier 77 why does the one in an image from your site in 2006 look so much different?

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap061207.html

I can't find that much in common between the two images and whats happened to the bright star in the 2006 image?

Actually, they look very similar. I think the different scales are confusing you.

The first image is the older APOD, made from the ground. The second is that image with today's HST image overlaid at the same scale.

by **emc** » Fri May 10, 2013 4:45 pm

neufer wrote:
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

emc wrote:
So beautiful… so intriguing… so far away… I can’t help but wonder if there are creatures there perhaps similar to us…
messy messy creatures… but who is messier?

Messy I disagree

if we weren’t messy we wouldn’t need combs… if we were any messier, we could have justification for changing our name… to perhaps "Messier-Than-77" which does have a kind of better ring than “Milky Way”… especially if you want to discourage alien aggression… what if the “scourge of the Universe” hostile aliens love milk products?

by **LocalColor** » Fri May 10, 2013 4:43 pm

Ann wrote:Congratulations, André, on the very fine processing job you did with the Hubble data of this galaxy!

Ann

Yes!

by **neufer** » Fri May 10, 2013 2:04 pm

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

emc wrote:
So beautiful… so intriguing… so far away… I can’t help but wonder if there are creatures there perhaps similar to us…
messy messy creatures… but who is messier?

Messy

I disagree

by **emc** » Fri May 10, 2013 1:51 pm

So beautiful… so intriguing… so far away… I can’t help but wonder if there are creatures there perhaps similar to us… messy messy creatures… but who is messier?

by **saturno2** » Fri May 10, 2013 10:15 am

Spiral Galaxy Messier 77 is an object very bright in the center.
There are some red stars.
The dust is compact.
Diameter Messier 77 -- 100,000 light years
Diameter Galaxy Milky Way -- 100,000 light years

by **bmesser** » Fri May 10, 2013 9:34 am

Hi

I'm confused - if this is Messier 77 why does the one in an image from your site in 2006 look so much different?

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap061207.html

I can't find that much in common between the two images and whats happened to the bright star in the 2006 image?

Bruce.

by **neufer** » Fri May 10, 2013 8:17 am

Click to play embedded YouTube video.

by **Berjerac** » Fri May 10, 2013 7:51 am

beautiful image of m77. learned a lot from this study. regions of star clusters and red gas noteworthy. hubble space telescope must draw images of every galaxy up to ngc 7700 to form a complete atlas of the known universe. in addition, deep space images must be extracted methodically to glimpse a view of the dark regions.
i believe that hubble space telescope and the hubble imaging team have a lot of work to do. i do not believe that hubble should be retired in the near or far future-let the space telescope do what it can. and, make no mistake, the second generation james webb space telescope is not a replacement for hubble since it functions in infra red light. hubble operates in visible light. regardless of the kind of data collected by imaging technology, it is visible light which affords the most meaning and perspective of an image. the human brain responds to visible light drawing relationsships in form and structure and composition. so, let there be light. when hubble stops functioning years from now after completing is survey of the known universe, perhaps a team can go up there and bring it down safely for display in a museum. by that time propulsion technology will have advanced to the level of extraterrestrial standards - flying discs and such (the public doesn't have to know)

by **Ann** » Fri May 10, 2013 7:01 am

axialix wrote:Amazing work and spectacular image. I'm wondering though where the bright foreground star went that's visible in the following images just to the left of the center of the galaxy?

http://skycenter.arizona.edu/sites/skyc ... es/m77.jpg
http://www.robgendlerastropics.com/M77NM.html

Today's APOD only shows the inner part of M77. This galaxy has a large outer ring, which contains star formation. There is a gap between the "main galaxy" and the outer ring. We see the foreground star, Hipparcos 12668, in that gap, but it is not part of today's APOD. However, there is a fainter star next to Hipparcos 12668 but closer to the main body of the galaxy, and I think we are seeing that star in today's APOD at about 6 o'clock.

Ann

by **avdhoeven** » Fri May 10, 2013 7:00 am

That's just outside the field of view...

by **axialix** » Fri May 10, 2013 6:31 am

Amazing work and spectacular image. I'm wondering though where the bright foreground star went that's visible in the following images just to the left of the center of the galaxy?

http://skycenter.arizona.edu/sites/skyc ... es/m77.jpg
http://www.robgendlerastropics.com/M77NM.html

by **Borc** » Fri May 10, 2013 6:13 am

isoparix wrote:"At that estimated distance, the gorgeous island universe is about 100 thousand light-years across." Does it have a different width at some other distance....?

Sorta.

We measured how wide it looks to us from our solar system then measured the distance from us to it. Those two numbers can give us the gals diameter, but change the distance and the size would need to change to match in order to maintain the laws of geometry.

The ACTUAL size wouldn't change, just our measurement would (presumably) get better.

If I'm unclear holler, ill be more particular.

Starship Asterisk*

APOD: Messier 77 (2013 May 10)

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