Starship Asterisk*

Chris Peterson wrote:

Beyond wrote:

Chris Peterson wrote:In any case, however, the important point is that there's nothing to suggest that Moses even existed...

I'm sure he wished that was so, because of the hard time the Isrealites gave him.

You mean, as opposed to the good times Pharaoh gave him...

Beyond wrote:

Chris Peterson wrote:In any case, however, the important point is that there's nothing to suggest that Moses even existed...

I'm sure he wished that was so, because of the hard time the Isrealites gave him. :mrgreen:

Chris Peterson wrote:In any case, however, the important point is that there's nothing to suggest that Moses even existed...

Chris Peterson wrote:
I'm quite sure that imaginary characters don't write anything!

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1289066&pageno=2 wrote:

• THE PUBLISHER TO THE READER. [_As given in the original edition_.]
  
  The author of these Travels, Mr. Lemuel Gulliver, is my ancient and
  intimate friend; there is likewise some relation between us on the
  mother’s side. About three years ago, Mr. Gulliver growing weary of the
  concourse of curious people coming to him at his house in Redriff, made
  a small purchase of land, with a convenient house, near Newark, in
  Nottinghamshire, his native country; where he now lives retired,
  yet in good esteem among his neighbours.
  
  Although Mr. Gulliver was born in Nottinghamshire, where his father
  dwelt, yet I have heard him say his family came from Oxfordshire;
  to confirm which, I have observed in the churchyard at Banbury in
  that county, several tombs and monuments of the Gullivers.
  
  Before he quitted Redriff, he left the custody of the following papers in
  my hands, with the liberty to dispose of them as I should think fit. I
  have carefully perused them three times. The style is very plain and
  simple; and the only fault I find is, that the author, after the manner
  of travellers, is a little too circumstantial. There is an air of truth
  apparent through the whole; and indeed the author was so distinguished
  for his veracity, that it became a sort of proverb among his neighbours
  at Redriff, when any one affirmed a thing, to say, it was as true as if
  Mr. Gulliver had spoken it.
  
  By the advice of several worthy persons, to whom, with the author’s
  permission, I communicated these papers, I now venture to send them
  into the world, hoping they may be, at least for some time, a better
  entertainment to our young noblemen, than the common scribbles of
  politics and party.
  
  This volume would have been at least twice as large, if I had not made
  bold to strike out innumerable passages relating to the winds and tides,
  as well as to the variations and bearings in the several voyages,
  together with the minute descriptions of the management of the ship
  in storms, in the style of sailors; likewise the account of longitudes and
  latitudes; wherein I have reason to apprehend, that Mr. Gulliver may
  be a little dissatisfied. But I was resolved to fit the work as much as
  possible to the general capacity of readers. However, if my own
  ignorance in sea affairs shall have led me to commit some mistakes, I
  alone am answerable for them. And if any traveller hath a curiosity to
  see the whole work at large, as it came from the hands of the author,
  I will be ready to gratify him.
  
  As for any further particulars relating to the author, the reader will
  receive satisfaction from the first pages of the book.

neufer wrote:If the character is based on an Egyptian nobleman,
it's quite possible that he would have been literate:

Chris Peterson wrote:

BDanielMayfield wrote:
Chris, you have great credibility as an accurate source when it comes to astronomy. But Moses, the writer of Genesis who was educated in the court of an Egyptian Pharaoh is thought to have completed this book by about 1513 BCE, not a just "a few hundred years BCE", and he may very well have been compiling from earlier written records.

Moses is not recognized as a historical figure, but rather a mythological one. Even if the character is based on an actual person, it is extremely unlikely that he would have been literate. Scholars call the writer of Genesis "the Yahwist", and date the book to somewhere between the 5th and 6th centuries BCE. Of course, the stories are certainly part of an oral tradition stretching much further back than that, but we are discussing writing here. There's little doubt that orally transmitted stories about the Moon extend to the earliest men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Psychology wrote:
<<Sigmund Freud, in his last book, Moses and Monotheism in 1939, postulated that Moses was an Egyptian nobleman who adhered to the monotheism of Akhenaten (ca. 1335 BC). Following a theory proposed by a contemporary biblical critic, Freud believed that Moses was murdered in the wilderness, producing a collective sense of patricidal guilt that has been at the heart of Judaism ever since. " Egyptian origin of Moses and of his message has received significant scholarly attention.>>

BDanielMayfield wrote:Chris, you have great credibility as an accurate source when it comes to astronomy. But Moses, the writer of Genesis who was educated in the court of an Egyptian Pharaoh is thought to have completed this book by about 1513 BCE, not a just "a few hundred years BCE", and he may very well have been compiling from earlier written records.

FloridaMike wrote:It's a tough crowd Bruce

Chris Peterson wrote:Genesis only dates to a few hundred years BCE. There are Babylonian cuneiform tablets with astronomical data for the Moon that considerably predate that.

FloridaMike wrote:

BDanielMayfield wrote:

BDanielMayfield wrote:One of the oldest written records of our Moon in a written form is found at Genesis 1:16 where this object is referred to as "the lesser luminary for dominating the night". I'm grateful that our lesser luminary exists and that its orbit is such that eclipses are so wonderfully varried.

Bruce

Please note correction.

It's a tough crowd Bruce

BDanielMayfield wrote:

BDanielMayfield wrote:One of the oldest written records of our Moon in a written form is found at Genesis 1:16 where this object is referred to as "the lesser luminary for dominating the night". I'm grateful that our lesser luminary exists and that its orbit is such that eclipses are so wonderfully varried.

Bruce

Please note correction.

Tszabeau wrote:The Moon's wobble is, also, made apparent in these two photos by plotting and comparing landmark craters.

Tszabeau wrote:The Moon's wobble is, also, made apparent in these two photos by plotting and comparing landmark craters.

geckzilla wrote:I find it difficult to believe that the Bible contains the first written record of anything other than its own mythology.

BDanielMayfield wrote:One of the oldest written records of our Moon in a written form is found at Genesis 1:16 where this object is referred to as "the lesser luminary for dominating the night". I'm grateful that our lesser luminary exists and that its orbit is such that eclipses are so wonderfully varried.

Bruce

John A. wrote:Can anyone tell me the difference in the light reflected from the moon between the maximum and minimum apparent sizes of the moon when it is full?

Chris Peterson wrote:

geckzilla wrote:
I find it difficult to believe that the Bible contains the first written record of anything other than its own mythology.

Yeah, Genesis isn't even close to the earliest written reference to the Moon. Genesis only dates to a few hundred years BCE.
There are Babylonian cuneiform tablets with astronomical data for the Moon that considerably predate that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_%28mythology%29 wrote:

[b][color=#FF00FF]Impression of the cylinder seal of Ḫašḫamer, ensi (high priest) of Sin at Iškun-Sin ca. 2100 BC. The seated figure is probably king Ur-Nammu, bestowing the governorship on Ḫašḫamer, who is led before him by a lamma (protective goddess). Sin/Nanna himself is present in the form of a crescent.[/color][/b]

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<<Sin (Akkadian: Su'en, Sîn) or Nanna (Sumerian: DŠEŠ.KI, DNANNA) was the god of the moon in the Mesopotamian mythology of Akkad, Assyria and Babylonia. Nanna is a Sumerian deity, the son of Enlil and Ninlil, and became identified with Semitic Sin. The two chief seats of Nanna's/Sin's worship were Ur in the south of Mesopotamia and Harran in the north.

He is commonly designated as En-zu, which means "lord of wisdom". During the period (c.2600-2400 BCE) that Ur exercised a large measure of supremacy over the Euphrates valley, Sin was naturally regarded as the head of the pantheon. It is to this period that we must trace such designations of Sin as "father of the gods", "chief of the gods", "creator of all things", and the like. The "wisdom" personified by the moon-god is likewise an expression of the science of astronomy or the practice of astrology, in which the observation of the moon's phases is an important factor.

An important Sumerian text ("Enlil and Ninlil") tells of the descent of Enlil and Ninlil, pregnant with Nanna/Sin, into the underworld. There, three "substitutions" are given to allow the ascent of Nanna/Sin. Sin's wife was Ningal ("Great Lady"), who bore him Utu/Shamash ("Sun") and Inanna/Ishtar (the goddess of the planet Venus). The tendency to centralize the powers of the universe leads to the establishment of the doctrine of a triad consisting of Sin/Nanna and his children.

Sin had a beard made of lapis lazuli and rode on a winged bull. The bull was one of his symbols, through his father, Enlil, "Bull of Heaven", along with the crescent and the tripod (which may be a lamp-stand). On cylinder seals, he is represented as an old man with a flowing beard and the crescent symbol. In the astral-theological system he is represented by the number 30 and the moon. This number probably refers to the average number of days (correctly around 29.53) in a lunar month, as measured between successive new moons.

Nanna's chief sanctuary at Ur was named E-gish-shir-gal ("house of the great light"). It was at Ur that the role of the En Priestess developed. This was an extremely powerful role held by a princess, most notably Enheduanna, daughter of King Sargon of Akkad, and was the primary cult role associated with the cult of Nanna/Sin.

Sin also had a sanctuary at the Assyrian city of Harran, named E-khul-khul ("house of joys"). The cult of the moon-god spread to other centers, so that temples to him are found in all the large cities of Babylonia and Assyria. A sanctuary for Sin with Syriac inscriptions invoking his name dating to the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE was found at Sumatar Harabesi in the Tektek mountains, not far from Harran and Edessa.>>

geckzilla wrote:I find it difficult to believe that the Bible contains the first written record of anything other than its own mythology.

geckzilla wrote:
I find it difficult to believe that the Bible contains the first written record of anything other than its own mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khonsu wrote:

[c]Khonsu is typically depicted as a mummy with the symbol of childhood,
a sidelock of hair, as well as the menat necklace with crook and flail.
He has close links to other divine children such as Horus and Shu.
He is sometimes shown wearing a falcon's head like Horus,
with whom he is associated as a protector and healer,
adorned with the sun disk and crescent moon.[/c]

<<Khonsu (alternately Chonsu, Khensu, Khons, Chons or Khonshu) is an Ancient Egyptian god whose main role was associated with the moon. His name means "traveller" and this may relate to the nightly travel of the moon across the sky. Along with Thoth he marked the passage of time. Khonsu was instrumental in the creation of new life in all living creatures. At Thebes he formed part of a family triad with Mut as his mother and Amun his father.

Khonsu is mentioned in the Pyramid Texts (2686 BC – 2181 BC) and Coffin Texts (ca. 2181-2055 BC), in which he is depicted in a fierce aspect, but he does not rise to prominence until the New Kingdom (ca. 1550–1070 B.C.), when he is described as the "Greatest God of the Great Gods". Locations of Khonsu's cult were Memphis, Hibis and Edfu. Most of the construction of the temple complex at Karnak (c. 1550–c. 1292 BC) was centered on Khonsu during the Ramesside Period. His temple at Karnak is in a relatively good state of preservation, and on one of the walls is depicted a cosmogeny in which Khonsu is described as the great snake who fertilizes the Cosmic Egg in the creation of the world.

As the god of light in the night, Khonsu was invoked to protect against wild animals, increase male virility, and to aid with healing. It was said that when Khonsu caused the crescent moon to shine, women conceived, cattle became fertile, and all nostrils and every throat was filled with fresh air. Khonsu can also be understood to mean king's placenta, and consequently in early times, he was considered to slay the king's (i.e. the pharaoh's) enemies, and extract their innards for the king's use, metaphorically creating something resembling a placenta for the king. This bloodthirsty aspect leads him to be referred to, in such as the Pyramid texts, as the (one who) lives on hearts.

Khonsu is typically depicted as a mummy with the symbol of childhood, a sidelock of hair, as well as the menat necklace with crook and flail. He has close links to other divine children such as Horus and Shu. He is sometimes shown wearing a falcon's head like Horus, with whom he is associated as a protector and healer, adorned with the sun disk and crescent moon. In art, Khonsu was depicted as a man with the head of a hawk, wearing the crescent of the new moon subtending the disc of the full moon. He was sometimes pictured on the back of a goose, ram, or two crocodiles. His sacred animal was the baboon, considered a lunar animal by the ancient Egyptians.>>