APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07)

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by rstevenson » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:53 am

Sam wrote:Discussion reminds me of this: --
Sam
Aye, therein lies the problem. How do we go forward -- we can't go back -- without bringing ourselves down to that low a level? There are good minds who say we likely can't, that we'll probably crash and burn no matter what we do. I'm not that pessimistic. Human beans can be extraordinarily creative when they're under pressure. It's just that too much of the world isn't feeling the pressure yet; they think they can just keep on keeping on without consequence.

At the moment the world reminds me a lot of the book "Exploring New Ethics for Survival: The Voyage of the Spaceship Beagle" by Garrett Hardin, which teaches a simple lesson about The Tragedy of the Commons. Most humans haven't yet realized that the Earth is a Commons. We may realize it before it's too late.

Rob

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by Chris Peterson » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:34 pm

quigley wrote:Nice to see some discussion going. When I was in grade school (eons ago) environmentalism was a very hot topic. Jacques Cousteau was warning that the oceans would be dead in 30 years and other "scientists" were stating that the earth's fossil fuel sources would be exhausted within 20-30 years. Well, hmmmmmmmmmm, the oceans should have been dead 20 years ago and we should be all riding horses again, if those statements were indeed the infallible truth. I'm afraid that politics DO play a huge role in topics such as "global warming"...er...I mean "climate change"...um...you know what I mean. I want scientific PROOF that this is human caused AND I want scientific answers to my questions as to why the planets are heating up AND why there have been many, many, many drastic climate changes in the earth's past without fossil fuels being burned, and I want to know why conditions are worsening despite auto, industrial, even propellent emissions being so much lower than they were not too long ago.
The oceans are dying, and fossil fuel resources are being exhausted. Food and water are running out. All of these predictions were accurate, they simply couldn't allow for mitigating circumstances, and in some cases they depended on incomplete science. The timing was wrong, but the concepts were correct.

There is no such thing as scientific proof, so if that's what you demand, you'll wait forever. Science is bolstered by observational and theoretical evidence. The evidence for human caused global warming is largely beyond doubt. The questions you have are all well addressed in the literature, so if you're really interested, I'd suggest you spend some time reading it.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by quigley » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:16 pm

Nice to see some discussion going. When I was in grade school (eons ago) environmentalism was a very hot topic. Jacques Cousteau was warning that the oceans would be dead in 30 years and other "scientists" were stating that the earth's fossil fuel sources would be exhausted within 20-30 years. Well, hmmmmmmmmmm, the oceans should have been dead 20 years ago and we should be all riding horses again, if those statements were indeed the infallible truth. I'm afraid that politics DO play a huge role in topics such as "global warming"...er...I mean "climate change"...um...you know what I mean. I want scientific PROOF that this is human caused AND I want scientific answers to my questions as to why the planets are heating up AND why there have been many, many, many drastic climate changes in the earth's past without fossil fuels being burned, and I want to know why conditions are worsening despite auto, industrial, even propellent emissions being so much lower than they were not too long ago.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by Sam » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:15 pm

Discussion reminds me of this: --
Sam

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by geckzilla » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:57 pm

It's not beyond man's practical ability. The simple solution is to have less children and reduce the human population to one with a minimal impact on the environment. The hard part is dealing with an economy of young persons burdened with taking care of a very large elderly population. Of course, everyone would have to agree with the solution or it wouldn't work. It's not magic.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by BDanielMayfield » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:42 am

flash wrote:
BDanielMayfield wrote:
quigley wrote:Check out the APOD's of May 5, 2006 and May 23, 2008. Can someone tell me how it is that "climate change" on Jupiter occurs without humans present? Or are there Jovian SUV's floating around in that hostile atmosphere?
Of course not all climate change is due to human causes. However, when the carbon that has been locked up in the crust of this planet over many thousands of years is quickly returned to the atmosphere over a short period of time there are bound to be consequences. A lot of this extra CO2 is being absorbed into the global ocean, but that is changing its ph, harming sensitive reef environments. I used to be very skeptical about global warming too, but seeing what’s happening to glaciers almost everywhere they are found (or, used to be found) convinced me that it’s real.

I know that no one storm like Sandy can be pointed to as proof, but the increase in the numbers and severity of weather disasters is telling. But, are we listening?

Bruce
Correlation does not imply causation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlatio ... _causation

We can measure and we know that:
It's getting warmer.
CO2 emissions and atmospheric concentration is rising.

Where's the causal relationship? Belief is not proof. It's a hypothesis. Is there proof? I'm willing to listen.

Stir in the knowlege that humans are not required for such warming and the argument that humans are the cause of this round of warming becomes less than convincing to me.
Flash, Anthony and Chris have provided fine answers, but I wanted to also express that I understand where you are coming from with your thinking. A few years ago I would have been right along with you. And I thank you for providing the informative link. It’s true, correlation does not mean that there MUST be a casual link, but linking the two facts that you acknowledge IS a reasonable assumption that is now widely accepted, as Anthony and Chris state.

But I suspect that our rapid use of fossil fuels is not the only human activity that is warming the earth. Agricultural and building practices are also contributing to the problem, by replacing cooler vegetated land with heat retaining surfaces like bare ground and pavement. But 8 billion people need food and they need places to live and work …

I believe that there is a solution to this and other problems, but it would require a ‘change of heart’ on the part of the world’s population. People would have to be willing to put aside personal and even national self interest in behalf of the greater good. Do you see any evidence that this is likely (or even possible) in today’s world? This is why I stated in an earlier comment that solving these problems is beyond mankind’s (practical) abilities.

Bruce

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by Chris Peterson » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:42 am

quigley wrote:Check out the APOD's of May 5, 2006 and May 23, 2008. Can someone tell me how it is that "climate change" on Jupiter occurs without humans present? Or are there Jovian SUV's floating around in that hostile atmosphere?
A nice example of the straw man fallacy.

The fact that there are other mechanisms that can drive climate change tells us nothing about the degree to which humans are currently changing Earth's climate.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by Chris Peterson » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:39 am

flash wrote: Correlation does not imply causation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlatio ... _causation

We can measure and we know that:
It's getting warmer.
CO2 emissions and atmospheric concentration is rising.

Where's the causal relationship? Belief is not proof. It's a hypothesis. Is there proof? I'm willing to listen.
We know that the CO2 levels are rising at just what we expect given our detailed knowledge of the carbon cycle and the amount of carbon we are releasing. We know that the the CO2 is coming from our fossil fuels because its isotopic signature tells us that. We understand very well how carbon dioxide results in more heat being retained, and the actual global warming observed is consistent with theory. And there are no alternate explanations for the heating.

The evidence is extensive and damning. It is completely beyond reasonable doubt that the current global warming is caused by anything except human activity. And that's why it is accepted as fact by essentially the entire climate science community.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by Anthony Barreiro » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:44 am

flash wrote:Correlation does not imply causation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlatio ... _causation

We can measure and we know that:
It's getting warmer.
CO2 emissions and atmospheric concentration is rising.

Where's the causal relationship? Belief is not proof. It's a hypothesis. Is there proof? I'm willing to listen.

Stir in the knowlege that humans are not required for such warming and the argument that humans are the cause of this round of warming becomes less than convincing to me.
I am not a climate scientist, but I am willing to believe the overwhelming consensus of the world's climate scientists that the atmosphere is warming and human releases of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases are significantly causing this change. If we wait for proof to convince every amateur skeptic, it will be too late to do anything about it. Are you familiar with the precautionary principle? The consequences of climate change are sufficiently dire that those who want to continue extracting and burning every last kilogram of fossil fuel need to prove that this would not be harmful.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by flash » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:27 am

BDanielMayfield wrote:
quigley wrote:Check out the APOD's of May 5, 2006 and May 23, 2008. Can someone tell me how it is that "climate change" on Jupiter occurs without humans present? Or are there Jovian SUV's floating around in that hostile atmosphere?
Of course not all climate change is due to human causes. However, when the carbon that has been locked up in the crust of this planet over many thousands of years is quickly returned to the atmosphere over a short period of time there are bound to be consequences. A lot of this extra CO2 is being absorbed into the global ocean, but that is changing its ph, harming sensitive reef environments. I used to be very skeptical about global warming too, but seeing what’s happening to glaciers almost everywhere they are found (or, used to be found) convinced me that it’s real.

I know that no one storm like Sandy can be pointed too as proof, but the increase in the numbers and severity of weather disasters is telling. But, are we listening?

Bruce
Correlation does not imply causation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlatio ... _causation

We can measure and we know that:
It's getting warmer.
CO2 emissions and atmospheric concentration is rising.

Where's the causal relationship? Belief is not proof. It's a hypothesis. Is there proof? I'm willing to listen.

Stir in the knowlege that humans are not required for such warming and the argument that humans are the cause of this round of warming becomes less than convincing to me.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by BDanielMayfield » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:45 pm

quigley wrote:Check out the APOD's of May 5, 2006 and May 23, 2008. Can someone tell me how it is that "climate change" on Jupiter occurs without humans present? Or are there Jovian SUV's floating around in that hostile atmosphere?
Of course not all climate change is due to human causes. However, when the carbon that has been locked up in the crust of this planet over many thousands of years is quickly returned to the atmosphere over a short period of time there are bound to be consequences. A lot of this extra CO2 is being absorbed into the global ocean, but that is changing its ph, harming sensitive reef environments. I used to be very skeptical about global warming too, but seeing what’s happening to glaciers almost everywhere they are found (or, used to be found) convinced me that it’s real.

I know that no one storm like Sandy can be pointed to as proof, but the increase in the numbers and severity of weather disasters is telling. But, are we listening?

Bruce

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by DavidLeodis » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:37 pm

In the information brought up through the "Pictured above" link in the explanation it refers to the "storm surget". Though I have assumed what it means I have tried to find a defintion of "surget" but have not been readily able to find one. It's almost as if it's a made up word :!:

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by quigley » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:55 pm

Check out the APOD's of May 5, 2006 and May 23, 2008. Can someone tell me how it is that "climate change" on Jupiter occurs without humans present? Or are there Jovian SUV's floating around in that hostile atmosphere?

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by Anthony Barreiro » Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:38 pm

BDanielMayfield wrote:This apod effects me deeply too. ...

A further reason I can relate to this story is that for most of my life I have lived near the gulf coast of Texas. I was a 12 year old living in Corpus Christi Texas when Hurricane Celia hit in 1970. ...

... .

Anthony’s second paragraph includes a litany of harmful changes that mankind is inflicting upon the earth, to which others could be added, like deforestation. These are evidences that man is ruining the earth. Solving these problems is beyond man’s abilities. (Not technically, but practically, since man is so disunited and prone to greed and selfishness.) Therefore SOS I pray, and please help the victims of Sandy.

Bruce
Thanks Bruce. I generally try to use gender-inclusive language, e.g. "humanity" rather than "man," but in this case I would agree with you that men share most of the responsibility for environmental devastation. I join you in prayer for the planet, and for the people whose lives have been affected by this storm.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by BDanielMayfield » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:51 pm

Anthony Barreiro wrote:"Awesome" is an over-used word, but this video is literally awesome. Seeing how big and powerful this storm was, and contemplating how much damage it did, I experience "overwhelming wonder, admiration, respect, [and] dread."

Now that such a huge and destructive storm has impacted New York and New Jersey, more of us here in the US are finally considering the reality and consequences of global warming and climate change. Less privileged people in the third world are already experiencing more frequent and more destructive storms, drought, disease, etc. Polar ice caps are at historic lows. The oceans are acidifying and the coral reefs are dying. Species all over the Earth are disappearing at rates that haven't occurred since the last global extinction that killed off the dinosaurs and 90 percent of all other species. But now that Snooky's porch was washed away, we're finally starting to take this seriously. I'm sorry to be so negative, but honestly that's how I'm feeling right now.
There’s no need to apologize Anthony. That was an excellent comment.

This apod effects me deeply too. I once lived for a few years in New York City were I was a frequent traveler on the subway system, 47 miles of which were flooded according to the New York Daily News article linked to in the Explanation. I wish the worker’s well in their monumental recovery efforts, as well as all those suffering up and down the east coast due to the effects of Sandy.

I also liked Qweenie’s comment. (My mother was born in Queens New York. Her parents had immigrated from The Netherlands, another lowland place that’s waging an epic battle with the threat of rising seas.) Qweenie is right to “really hate to think how much damage a category 5 could do …” On a less ominous note I must point out that the winds of these storms weaken as they move north, and they almost always turn east out to sea. Sandy was the rare exception to the rule, although that’s little comfort to those who’ve lost homes because of her.

A further reason I can relate to this story is that for most of my life I have lived near the gulf coast of Texas. I was a 12 year old living in Corpus Christi Texas when Hurricane Celia hit in 1970. The stats on this storm call her a strong Cat 3, but no one who actually lived through it agrees with that assessment, because it’s based on a recorded wind gust of more than 160 MPH that was recorded prior to the peak of the storm. Then the wind gauge blew away, as well as many structures that engineers say were designed to withstand 200 MPH winds.

You’ve no doubt heard the wind howl, maybe even shriek, but I remember from the interior of a well built brick house hearing the wind scream, not occasionally, but continually. We didn’t experience the very strongest winds, since the eye pasted north of our location. The home we were in was on the west side of Corpus, about 35 miles inland from were Celia first made landfall on Padre Island. The storm hit at night, but when we immerged the next morning there were many similar, well built brick homes that had been totally destroyed.

In the years since there have been many near misses, and I happened to have been in Houston when tropical storm Allison looped around and dumped an incredible amount of rainfall. (The peak total was 40.68 inches!) Therefore, it’s not wise to take tropical cyclones for granted, believe me.

Anthony’s second paragraph includes a litany of harmful changes that mankind is inflicting upon the earth, to which others could be added, like deforestation. These are evidences that man is ruining the earth. Solving these problems is beyond man’s abilities. (Not technically, but practically, since man is so disunited and prone to greed and selfishness.) Therefore SOS I pray, and please help the victims of Sandy.

Bruce

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by geckzilla » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:28 pm

I knew you'd figure out what I was talking about, Art.

Winter Storm Yogi?

by neufer » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:01 am

geckzilla wrote:
Athena dumped enough snow on us fast enough that even the well traveled roads are very slippery.
http://www.komonews.com/weather/blogs/scott/Naming-NorEaster-Athena-creates-controversy-in-weather-community-177753001.html wrote:
Naming Nor'Easter ''Athena'' creates controversy in weather community
By Scott Sistek Published: Nov 7, 2012 at 3:15 PM PST Last Updated: Nov 7, 2012 at 3:45 PM PST

<<The Nor'Easter bearing down on New England Wednesday has been given the name "Athena" by the folks at The Weather Channel -- the inaugural name on the list of winter storm names the channel created this season.

The Weather Channel went on their own and created a policy of naming winter storms in October, figuring a named storm will make communications easier, especially on social media where the storm could become a hashtag.

With "Athena", TWC said the storm meets their criteria for naming the storm due to the possibility of several inches of snow across some areas that were still recovering from Sandy, including the interior sections of New Jersey.

But not everyone is playing along with the idea.

The National Weather Service issued a directive to their East Coast forecasters not to use the name Athena in any of their forecasts or warnings. "The NWS does not use name (sic) winter storms in our products," the message read. "Please refrain from using the term Athena in any of our products."

The controversy stems from a private weather enterprise taking the reigns of this initiative without global support from the weather community. Hurricane names are governed by the World Meteorological Organization and have a strict criteria for when they are to be used, and what names to use.

But this winter storm list is being used by just one part of the greater weather community. If the NWS and other private weather services are not on board, could there be confusion? If the NWS is talking about a "storm" in the general sense and TWC is focused on Athena, and it's the same storm, but not spoken about the same way then...what?

And unlike a hurricane or tropical storm, there is also no set criteria for naming the storm and it appears it's up to TWC alone whether to give the storm the moniker, but then expect the rest of the world to just follow along.

A search of #Athena on Twitter found confusion on there. But I will say the hashtag search did provide quite a bit of storm information as well with a clearinghouse for some photos coming in from the storm. So in that sense, the concept is a success.

But for the non social media aspect, if you've got one TV channel saying one thing, and the National Weather Service saying (or not saying) another, and what happens if some local TV stations do use the name and others don't and... you get what I'm saying. With no global mandate, this can get pretty muddled. So I'd say the concept is a good idea, but I think it needs to be done on a global weather community scale, not just have one part -- yes, an important part, but just one part -- unilaterally say so.

(And "Winter Storm 'Q'? 'Orko'? 'Gandolf'? Is there a danger some of the names are so silly that the storm won't be taken seriously? There's a reason we don't have "Hurricane Fluffy Bunny"). I think actually the best of both worlds might lie in what Portland has come up with: The hashtag #pdxtst. Short for "Portland Twitter! Storm! Team!" it was born as a poke against the local media for hyping our own winter storms.

But it caught on so well that it's now the standard hashtag for any weather event there, be it wind, snow or flooding (or lightning). Even the local emergency managers have caught on. In public forecasts, the storms are treated as their usual unnamed selves but locals know to find the latest info using that hashtag.

Maybe it doesn't work as well on a national or large regional scale, but maybe there is a happy medium out there. In the meantime, we're just left to wonder when Winter Storm Nemo will strike.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by Anthony Barreiro » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:21 am

"Awesome" is an over-used word, but this video is literally awesome. Seeing how big and powerful this storm was, and contemplating how much damage it did, I experience "overwhelming wonder, admiration, respect, [and] dread."

Now that such a huge and destructive storm has impacted New York and New Jersey, more of us here in the US are finally considering the reality and consequences of global warming and climate change. Less privileged people in the third world are already experiencing more frequent and more destructive storms, drought, disease, etc. Polar ice caps are at historic lows. The oceans are acidifying and the coral reefs are dying. Species all over the Earth are disappearing at rates that haven't occurred since the last global extinction that killed off the dinosaurs and 90 percent of all other species. But now that Snooky's porch was washed away, we're finally starting to take this seriously. I'm sorry to be so negative, but honestly that's how I'm feeling right now.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by StarCuriousAero » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:04 pm

How many more record breaking weather events do we need to witness before people stop denying global warming is happening all around us... and that all likely evidence points to us as the causal factor? Either we need to elect more knowlegable people, or else. This issue needs to be addressed immediately, else we'll see massive global issues: famine, drought, sickness, heat deaths, cold deaths and who knows what else. Why can't we get retired scientists running for office as often as retired lawyers? (half of which made their careers out of lying, why should we be surprised to see the same behavior from Congress, state legislatures, etc?) Sorry to bring more politics to a science website... but I'd love to see the scientific community come together and take on these issues (more publicly). We need more vocal scientists like Neil deGrasse Tyson!

By the way, amazing apod (avod?), keep up the good work!

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by geckzilla » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:53 pm

Athena dumped enough snow on us fast enough that even the well traveled roads are very slippery. Sanitation was already just barely picking up our garbage. They've got their work cut out for them because now they need to plow all the snow and I wonder if they have fuel for the trucks. Pat is currently stuck at the hospital. He waited half an hour to get out of his parking spot and then gave up and put the car back in. I guess he's not going to make it home tonight.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by Qweenie » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:16 pm

Hurricane Sandy was never more than a category 1 storm but it wrought enough damage to NY & NJ to match Hurricane Katrina, a category 5. Sandy pulled heat and water vapour from the Gulf Stream, which is much cooler than the Gulf of Mexico, which hits over 30°C and quickly turns category 1 storms into Catefory 4 and 5. I really hate to think how much damage a category 5 could do to NYC & NJ if coupled with the same high tides and storm surge.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by saturno2 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:55 pm

The central part of a hurracane is like a spiral galaxy.
Have the same motion.
Eye ( hurracane) = black hole ( galaxy ) ??
= as similar

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by Chris Peterson » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:41 pm

flash wrote:That the arctic is warming is undeniable, but attributing that to us humans is probably hubris... :oops: While it is believeable (and perhaps even likely) that humans have contributed to this warming trend it is also true that arctic areas have warmed and cooled many times in the distant past (can you say "ICE AGE"?) without any help at all from us humans. Why we blame humans for this cycle should be the topic for a psychological study. What little effect humans do have on climate might (in time) help avoid nuclear winter should the unthinkable occur.
Because there is no doubt that the warming is caused by humans. Nor that the current rapid change in global heat content is almost entirely caused by humans. There is no hubris involved. The fact that other mechanisms can also cause climate change in no way means that they are responsible for the current change... indeed, they are not. This is pretty much all on us. Humans do not have only a little effect on climate. We are a major forcer.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by FloridaMike » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:29 pm

flash wrote:
neufer wrote: Human global warming is already having a strong & noticeable impact on warming our cold Arctic region (as predicted).
The arctic is warming, but so too are the tropics. I sumbit that the difference in the rates of warming between them is the issue here regarding increasing or decreasing winds...

That the arctic is warming is undeniable, but attributing that to us humans is probably hubris... :oops: While it is believeable (and perhaps even likely) that humans have contributed to this warming trend it is also true that arctic areas have warmed and cooled many times in the distant past (can you say "ICE AGE"?) without any help at all from us humans. Why we blame humans for this cycle should be the topic for a psychological study. What little effect humans do have on climate might (in time) help avoid nuclear winter should the unthinkable occur. :shock: Changes in the balance of incoming and outgoing energy is the cause of climate change. Small, natural changes in any of many factors beyond human control (such as meteor impact, Solar output variance, precession, magnetic field reversal, etc) will have a much larger effect on our climate than anything we have done. That's what caused all the other climate cycles, and that's what will cause the rest unless we blow ourselves up first.

Or, it may be that you are ignoring a lot of physical science that has nothing to do with psychology.

Re: APOD: Superstorm Sandy From Formation to... (2012 Nov 07

by neufer » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:27 pm

flash wrote:
neufer wrote:
Human global warming is already having a strong & noticeable impact on warming our cold Arctic region (as predicted).
The arctic is warming, but so too are the tropics.
The arctic warming is enhanced due to a positive feedback mechanism of less sea ice reflecting sunlight.

The tropical warming is suppressed due to a negative feedback mechanism of more clouds reflecting sunlight.

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