APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by Raven » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:12 am

Beyond wrote:
Raven wrote:I didn't think Mickey's dog was all that bright. Or even Goofy....
Exactly :!: :!: That's why i can't see it. :yes:
... but the reason you can't see Mickey's dog is that, having buried it all in the backyard, he now rules the underworld of wealth.

Hence the term "plutonian".

(Whereas you'll note the moon Charon wasn't named "Goofy". And so on for the other four.)

The dead giveaway? If the Pluto with five moons was canine, he'd be CHASING them!

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by Beyond » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:19 am

Raven wrote:I didn't think Mickey's dog was all that bright. Or even Goofy....
Exactly :!: :!: That's why i can't see it. :yes:

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by Raven » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:12 am

Beyond wrote:It's just that in this physical realm, i just can't see as far as Pluto.
You can see a whole lot farther than Pluto, viz. any stars you see in the night sky.
Beyond wrote:Perhaps if conditions were just right, with a brand new super nova off in the distance behind Pluto... Nah! I still wouldn't be able to see Pluto because of the brightness. Oh, well. Guess I'll just have to wait until someone makes more Mickey Mouse cartoons. :mrgreen:
I didn't think Mickey's dog was all that bright. Or even Goofy....

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by Beyond » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:35 pm

Raven wrote:
Beyond wrote:That doesn't work for me. I'm not far sighted enough to see Pluto. :shock: :lol2:
Tsk, in the spirit of a true Beyonder, you could have tried standing on your toes atop a footstool.

Yeah, well, maybe sometimes you'd have to wait for that pesky ISS to move out of the way....
It's just that in this physical realm, i just can't see as far as Pluto. Perhaps if conditions were just right, with a brand new super nova off in the distance behind Pluto... Nah! I still wouldn't be able to see Pluto because of the brightness. Oh, well. Guess I'll just have to wait until someone makes more Mickey Mouse cartoons. :mrgreen:

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by Raven » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:11 am

Beyond wrote:That doesn't work for me. I'm not far sighted enough to see Pluto. :shock: :lol2:
Tsk, in the spirit of a true Beyonder, you could have tried standing on your toes atop a footstool.

Yeah, well, maybe sometimes you'd have to wait for that pesky ISS to move out of the way....

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by Beyond » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:26 am

Raven wrote:Wellll, I'm far-sighted, so I had to pull my reading/magnifier glasses away from my nose a little bit....
That doesn't work for me. I'm not far sighted enough to see Pluto. :shock: :lol2:

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by Raven » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:09 am

geckzilla wrote:Red alert. Incoming Pluto fans ready to beat the planet semantics horse again. Protect the horse!
It does seem strange: here we are, a planet with one moon; and there Pluto is, a "non-planet" with FIVE moons.

Is Pluto not a planet because it "hasn't cleared its orbit"? Of, say, Neptune?

But see Orin's explanation. That's only if we view Pluto's orbit two-dimensionally, as though it occurred in the same plane/ecliptic as Neptune's -- which in fact it doesn't. It occurs in a different plane, tilted from the ecliptic, and what other masses share its orbit in that plane?

Other than its five moons, that is?

I think the "orbit-clearing" definition needs clarification for orbits in such different planes.
Moonlady wrote:Hey, I just saw {Pluto} with my binocular 10x25 clearly! And I wouldnt need that, if I am not near-sighted 8-)
Wellll, I'm far-sighted, so I had to pull my reading/magnifier glasses away from my nose a little bit.... :shock:

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by Moonlady » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:03 am

TNT wrote:
Moonlady wrote:
TNT wrote: I'm surprised you even saw Pluto at all.

Hey, I just saw it with my binocular 10x25 clearly! And I wouldnt need that, if I am not near-sighted 8-)
Moonlady, Pluto is too faint too see with binoculars that size. And I don't think a 3-inch telescope will be large enough to see Pluto, either.
Explaining irony isn't fun :!:

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by orin stepanek » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:41 pm

An interesting fact about Pluto's relationship with Neptune from wiki
and other dynamical effects keep Pluto's orbit stable, safe from planetary collision or scattering.

Relationship with Neptune
Orbit of Pluto—polar view. This 'view from above' shows how Pluto's orbit (in red) is less circular than Neptune's (in blue), and how Pluto is sometimes closer to the Sun than Neptune. The darker halves of both orbits show where they pass below the plane of the ecliptic.Despite Pluto's orbit appearing to cross that of Neptune when viewed from directly above, the two objects' orbits are aligned so that they can never collide or even approach closely. There are several reasons why.

At the simplest level, one can examine the two orbits and see that they do not intersect. When Pluto is closest to the Sun, and hence closest to Neptune's orbit as viewed from above, it is also the farthest above Neptune's path. Pluto's orbit passes about 8 AU above that of Neptune, preventing a collision.[59][60][61] Pluto's ascending and descending nodes, the points at which its orbit crosses the ecliptic, are currently separated from Neptune's by over 21°.[62]

This alone is not enough to protect Pluto; perturbations from the planets (especially Neptune) could alter aspects of Pluto's orbit (such as its orbital precession) over millions of years so that a collision could be possible. Some other mechanism or mechanisms must therefore be at work. The most significant of these is that Pluto lies in the 3:2 mean motion resonance with Neptune: for every three of Neptune's orbits around the Sun, Pluto makes two. The two objects then return to their initial positions and the cycle repeats, each cycle lasting about 500 years. This pattern is such that, in each 500-year cycle, the first time Pluto is near perihelion Neptune is over 50° behind Pluto. By Pluto's second perihelion, Neptune will have completed a further one and a half of its own orbits, and so will be a similar distance ahead of Pluto. Pluto and Neptune's minimum separation is over 17 AU. Pluto comes closer to Uranus (11 AU) than it does to Neptune.[61]

The 3:2 resonance between the two bodies is highly stable, and is preserved over millions of years.[63] This prevents their orbits from changing relative to one another; the cycle always repeats in the same way, and so the two bodies can never pass near to each other. Thus, even if Pluto's orbit were not highly

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by TNT » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:41 am

Moonlady wrote:
TNT wrote:
WallyBalls wrote:I'm pretty sure I saw this new moon the other night with my Edmund 3" reflector.
I'm surprised you even saw Pluto at all.

Hey, I just saw it with my binocular 10x25 clearly! And I wouldnt need that, if I am not near-sighted 8-)
Moonlady, Pluto is too faint too see with binoculars that size. And I don't think a 3-inch telescope will be large enough to see Pluto, either.

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by orin stepanek » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:34 am

Consider this; Scientists are searching of planets around other stars! Are they going to classify them as planets and dwarf planets as they are found? When a theoretical alien is counting planets around Sol are they going to classify them as we do? :roll: :wink: :shock: :lol2: What does Planet mean? Wiki
Ads
AdsAnswer:."Planet" means "wanderer"--a reference that contrasts planets from stars. If you look at the sky, planets can change position relative to the other stars in the sky. Stars tend to be grouped in a fixed pattern.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_pla ... z20q5Euvxt
Dwarf wanderer? :?: :?

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by neufer » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:08 am

bookittyrun wrote:
a little confused, perhaps by my lack of stellar education (take it as a pun, if you like...) considering the relative small size of pluto, how does it manage to keep (now) five moons circling in orbit? i understand the moons are of small size and limited composition, but how did pluto manage to collect these objects with such little gravity/mass? by comparison, why does earth not contain dozens of moons, having a higher probability of collecting a "circle of friends" due to our larger size and mass?
The Earth's Moon has "cleared the neighbourhood" of its own orbital zone.

More distant orbitals (near to 3 to 6 times the monthly lunar period) would have been strongly influenced by Solar tidal forces.

Objects within Earth's geostationary orbit were pulled into the Earth by ocean tides.

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by dougthemug » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:39 pm

How many moons does it take to change a dwarf planet status?

I guess the hierarchy is
1. Oort cloud
2. dwarf planet
3. famous solar system body
4. planet

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by dougthemug » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:36 pm

It seems to me that the Earth has many small objects orbiting it. Including the international space station, NOAA weather sats, etc. <grin>

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by bookittyrun » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:05 pm

a little confused, perhaps by my lack of stellar education (take it as a pun, if you like...) considering the relative small size of pluto, how does it manage to keep (now) five moons circling in orbit? i understand the moons are of small size and limited composition, but how did pluto manage to collect these objects with such little gravity/mass? by comparison, why does earth not contain dozens of moons, having a higher probability of collecting a "circle of friends" due to our larger size and mass?

fascinating, either way...

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by Moonlady » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:20 pm

TNT wrote:
WallyBalls wrote:I'm pretty sure I saw this new moon the other night with my Edmund 3" reflector.
I'm surprised you even saw Pluto at all.

Hey, I just saw it with my binocular 10x25 clearly! And I wouldnt need that, if I am not near-sighted 8-)


Statistically I will be still living to see New Horizon approaching Pluto 2015 July, the little planet :D

Directional conventions in celestial images

by Anthony Barreiro » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:04 pm

neufer wrote:
JuanAustin wrote:
i found it a little odd seeing a North/East legend on the photo. Is there a convention for north, south, east and west used in space? What kind of directional conventions are used for space or envisioned for space travel?
A sky map is a mirror image of an Earth map.

When you look up in the sky in the Northern Hemisphere
to observe the planets near zenith: North is up and East is to you left.
Please allow me to elaborate slightly on Neufer's answer:

North / South directions in celestial images generally refer to Earth's equatorial plane and the celestial north and south poles. On the surface of the earth north and south are called latitude; in the sky north and south are called declination. The celestial equator, the sky directly overhead from Earth's equator, has a declination of 0 degrees. The north celestial pole is declination + (plus) 90 degrees. Conveniently Polaris, the North Star, is less than one degree from the north celestial pole. The south celestial pole, declination - (minus) 90 degrees, is in the constellation Octans.

East / West directions in celestial images generally refer to the point where the ecliptic, the plane of Earth's orbit around the Sun, crosses the celestial equator from south to north, i.e. the point where the Sun is in the sky at the moment of the Spring equinox. On the surface of the earth east and west are called longitude; in the sky east and west are called right ascension. (Just as the decision to make the Royal Observatory in Greenwich England the zero point for longitude was completely arbitrary, the decision for the zero point of right ascension was also completely arbitrary.) Right ascension is measured in hours. The full circle all the way around Earth's sky has 24 hours of right ascension. The point of the Spring equinox (also called the first point of Aries), in the constellation Pisces, is designated 0 hours right ascension. Summer solstice is 6 hours right ascension, Fall equinox is 12 hours right ascension, Winter solstice 18 hours right ascension.

As Neufer said, when we're looking up into the sky (or at a celestial image or map) East and West are reversed relative to directions when we're looking down at a map of the surface of the Earth.

To slightly complicate matters, sometimes astronomers use directions relative to Earth's ecliptic plane rather than the equatorial plane, or relative to the plane of the milky way galaxy. But this would always be mentioned. If you see simply "North" and "East" as in this image, you can safely assume that these directions are relative to Earth's equatorial plane.

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by TNT » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:32 pm

WallyBalls wrote:I'm pretty sure I saw this new moon the other night with my Edmund 3" reflector.
I'm surprised you even saw Pluto at all.

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by neufer » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:06 pm

JuanAustin wrote:
i found it a little odd seeing a North/East legend on the photo. Is there a convention for north, south, east and west used in space? What kind of directional conventions are used for space or envisioned for space travel?
A sky map is a mirror image of an Earth map.

When you look up in the sky in the Northern Hemisphere
to observe the planets near zenith: North is up and East is to you left.

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by JuanAustin » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:07 pm

Exciting discovery! i found it a little odd seeing a North/East legend on the photo. Is there a convention for north, south, east and west used in space? What kind of directional conventions are used for space or envisioned for space travel?

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by WallyBalls » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:38 pm

Alexanderd wrote:The thing that just blows my mind is that this whole system would fit, comfortably and safely, between the Earth and our Moon.
Comfortably and safely? This is the solar system we're talking about here not your your spare bedroom.

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by WallyBalls » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:33 pm

I'm pretty sure I saw this new moon the other night with my Edmund 3" reflector.

Clear the neighbourhood...Nothing to see here!

by neufer » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:53 pm

orin stepanek wrote:
Boomer12k wrote:
Evidently Pluto tried very hard to "clear its path" and become a bigger planet...it just had not accomplished that...
Maybe i'm just speculating; but none of the planets have cleared their orbits! Otherwise we wouldn't have to worry about meteors! :? And Neptune still has pluto crossing into it's orbit! 8-) Yaa Pluto; PeeWee Power! Go little planet! :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleared_the_neighbourhood wrote:
<<"Clearing the neighbourhood of its orbit" is a criterion for a celestial body to be considered a planet in the Solar System.

In the end stages of planet formation, a planet will have "cleared the neighbourhood" of its own orbital zone, meaning it has become gravitationally dominant, and there are no other bodies of comparable size other than its own satellites or those otherwise under its gravitational influence. A large body which meets the other criteria for a planet but has not cleared its neighbourhood is classified as a dwarf planet. This includes Pluto, which shares its orbital neighbourhood with Kuiper belt objects such as the plutinos. The IAU's definition does not attach specific numbers or equations to this term, but all the planets have cleared their neighbourhoods to a much greater extent than any dwarf planet, or any candidate for dwarf planet.

The phrase may be derived from a paper presented to the general assembly of the IAU in 2000 by Alan Stern and Harold F. Levison. Stern, currently leading the NASA New Horizons mission to Pluto, disagrees with the reclassification of Pluto on the basis that—like Pluto—Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Neptune have not cleared their orbital neighbourhoods either. Earth co-orbits with 10,000 near-Earth asteroids (NEAs), and Jupiter has 100,000 Trojan asteroids in its orbital path. "If Neptune had cleared its zone, Pluto wouldn't be there", he now says.

However, in 2000 Stern himself wrote, "we define an überplanet as a planetary body in orbit about a star that is dynamically important enough to have cleared its neighboring planetesimals ..." and a few paragraphs later, "From a dynamical standpoint, our solar system clearly contains 8 überplanets"—including Earth, Mars, Jupiter, and Neptune. Most planetary scientists understand "clearing the neighborhood" to refer to an object being the dominant mass in its vicinity, for instance Earth being many times more massive than all of the NEAs combined, and Neptune "dwarfing" Pluto and the rest of the KBOs.>>

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by johnmlehman » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:49 pm

famous Solar System body
. Good choice.

Re: APOD: Fifth Moon Discovered Orbiting Pluto (2012 Jul 16)

by orin stepanek » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:37 pm

Boomer12k wrote: Evidently Pluto tried very hard to "clear its path" and become a bigger planet...it just had not accomplished that...

:---[===] *
Maybe i'm just speculating; but none of the planets have cleared their orbits! Otherwise we wouldn't have to worry about meteors! :? And Neptune still has pluto crossing into it's orbit! 8-) Yaa Pluto; PeeWee Power! Go little planet! :D

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