APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

Post a reply


This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
Smilies
:D :) :ssmile: :( :o :shock: :? 8-) :lol2: :x :P :oops: :cry: :evil: :roll: :wink: :!: :?: :idea: :arrow: :| :mrgreen:
View more smilies

BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[url] is ON
Smilies are ON

Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by B » Mon May 30, 2011 10:17 pm

To all extraterrestrials

Please recover and return to the Earth the explorer space probes inicated when found floating in space. Thank you for your cooperation.

-Voyager 1
-Voyager 2
-Pioneer 10
-Pioneer 11
-New Horizons
-Dawn
-Kepler (ESA)
-Planck (ESA)
-

-

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by neufer » Sat May 07, 2011 9:46 pm

ImageImage
bystander wrote:
owlice wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Horizons#Kuiper_belt_mission wrote:
<<(Alice :owl: can perform ... occultations>>
How (unfortunately) true!
So, you are a witch?
A practitioner of the occult? :shock:
OCCULT, a. [L. occulo; ob and celo, to conceal.]
Hidden from the eye or understanding; invisible; secret; unknown; undiscovered; undetected.

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by bystander » Sat May 07, 2011 4:31 pm

owlice wrote:
neufer wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Horizons#Kuiper_belt_mission wrote:
<<(Alice :owl: can perform ... occultations>>
How (unfortunately) true!
So, you are a witch? A practitioner of the occult? :shock:

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by Chris Peterson » Sat May 07, 2011 2:14 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:If it is found and decoded, it will contain the directions to a planet that contains Aluminum, Copper, Gold, and Uranium. Lets hope these are truely plentiful thruought the universe.
It is likely that any civilization a bit more advance than ours (as we can expect any finding Voyager to be) will have the ability to manipulate vast amounts of energy, and if you can do that, all elements are abundant.

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by owlice » Sat May 07, 2011 11:42 am

neufer wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Horizons#Kuiper_belt_mission wrote:
<<(Alice :owl: can perform ... occultations>>
How (unfortunately) true!

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by neufer » Sat May 07, 2011 11:41 am

BMAONE23 wrote:
If it is found and decoded, it will contain the directions to a planet that contains Aluminum, Copper, Gold, and Uranium.

Lets hope these are truly plentiful throughout the universe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements wrote: <<Hydrogen and helium are most common, from the Big Bang.

The next three elements (Li, Be, B) are rare because they are poorly synthesized in the Big Bang and also in stars.

The two general trends in the remaining stellar-produced elements are:

(1) an alternation of abundance in elements as they have even or odd atomic numbers, and

(2) a general decrease in abundance, as elements become heavier.>>

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by BMAONE23 » Sat May 07, 2011 7:07 am

If it is found and decoded, it will contain the directions to a planet that contains Aluminum, Copper, Gold, and Uranium. Lets hope these are truely plentiful thruought the universe.

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by iamlucky13 » Sat May 07, 2011 4:53 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:(Note that we, ourselves, no longer possess the capability to play the phonographs on board Voyager.)
We chose a deliberately primitive recording technique in order to suggest a (hopefully) obvious means of recovering the data. It's highly doubtful that any civilization intercepting the recording will have an off-the-shelf record player available, either. But like any competent human engineer, I'd expect a player could be put together out of common parts in a few hours. I've built a few phonographs from scratch, and could certainly do so again. (And of course, phonographs are still readily available right here on Earth, as commercial products.)
A basic phonograph wouldn't really do it. The disc is a mix of images and sound. You'd get some noise mixed in with the recorded sound, but to any alien, the recorded sound would make almost no sense.

However, the cover of the disc has some symbols intended to represent a basic phonograph and the patterns of the data. At first glance, it would be almost completely unintelligible, but the clearly intelligently made origin would beckon for further study, and given that the most important parts are essentially mathematical, it's far from unimaginable that they'd figure it out.

It's incredibly doubtful it would ever be found, but the design of the disc included a rather insightful look at what the basics of language really are. The process of designing it is fascinating in its own right.

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by Chris Peterson » Sat May 07, 2011 1:13 am

biddie67 wrote:Admittedly I don't have an engineer's mindset, but to me looking at the golden disk, it might be more akin to the cave drawings here on Earth than interpreted as a "reasonable" attempt to communicate by some alien civilization. Frustrating to be sure to all that worked on developing the disk, I can see some child-like alien playing frisbee with it. I hope its fate is not this but what it was intended for in the first place ....
I think the assumption is reasonable that any civilization that intercepts the Voyager will recognize it as an artifact from an intelligent species, will be capable of analyzing the function of all the components, and will be looking for some sort of effort to communicate. I suspect that all spacefaring, technological civilizations will share many aspects of their thinking processes.

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by biddie67 » Sat May 07, 2011 12:55 am

Admittedly I don't have an engineer's mindset, but to me looking at the golden disk, it might be more akin to the cave drawings here on Earth than interpreted as a "reasonable" attempt to communicate by some alien civilization. Frustrating to be sure to all that worked on developing the disk, I can see some child-like alien playing frisbee with it. I hope its fate is not this but what it was intended for in the first place ....

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by Chris Peterson » Fri May 06, 2011 10:27 pm

neufer wrote:(Note that we, ourselves, no longer possess the capability to play the phonographs on board Voyager.)
We chose a deliberately primitive recording technique in order to suggest a (hopefully) obvious means of recovering the data. It's highly doubtful that any civilization intercepting the recording will have an off-the-shelf record player available, either. But like any competent human engineer, I'd expect a player could be put together out of common parts in a few hours. I've built a few phonographs from scratch, and could certainly do so again. (And of course, phonographs are still readily available right here on Earth, as commercial products.)

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by rstevenson » Fri May 06, 2011 9:42 pm

neufer wrote:(Note that we, ourselves, no longer possess the capability to play the phonographs on board Voyager.)
I still have a working record player, though I'd have to do some work on it to get it to play at 16 2/3 rpm, as required.

Rob

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by neufer » Fri May 06, 2011 9:00 pm

islader2 wrote:
In interstellar space, will the probes emit any type of signals--or will alien contact, if any, be a random event?
So long as our civilization remains intact alien's will be aware of Earth long before they are aware of our space craft.

(Note that we, ourselves, no longer possess the capability to play the phonographs on board Voyager.)

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by iamlucky13 » Fri May 06, 2011 7:53 pm

moonstruck wrote:Wow, thanks for the prospective.
There was an essay in the Wall Street Journal or some similar publication a while back about this sort of thing - how we used to refer to really big numbers as "astronomical."

These days the astronomical numbers are yielding in their impressiveness to economical numbers. To wit:

The inflation adjusted cost of the Apollo program was around $135 billion from I think the period 1963 to 1975.

We currently add that much to our debt - just our debt, not even our entire federal budget - every 5 weeks.

The biggest single project the US ever undertook, the Interstate Highway System, cost an inflation adjusted $425 billion for the originally planned parts. We gave almost twice that much away to companies that couldn't manage their own finances.

Both Voyager missions together had an inflation-adjusted cost around $3 billion and are nearly 34 years along. The debt grows by that much in 18 hours.

The Voyager missions gain 325 million miles from the sun each year. The debt grows 1,420,000 million dollars each year.
Matt wrote: Do you think we'll be able to gather enough information that we're looking for in just a flyby? What then, it just keeps going like the Voyager missions?
Yes. They knew how limited the time would be for collecting information and how that would limit the data collected when the mission was first approved. There is a risk that something could go wrong, in which case they would have almost no time to respond, but that's a continuous reality for interplanetary probes. Even those that orbit only have short windows of opportunity to enter orbit, and many past missions have failed that way.

The New Horizons team is trying to reduce the risk by testing everything and rehearsing procedures as much as possible. They did a full dress rehearsal by studying Jupiter when they flew by it a couple years ago, and it went very well.

After it passes Pluto, they hope to find a Kuiper belt object or two lying close enough to its trajectory to study as a bonus mission. They're identifying candidates currently.

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by islader2 » Fri May 06, 2011 7:01 pm

In interstellar space, will the probes emit any type of signals--or will alien contact, if any, be a random event?

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by neufer » Fri May 06, 2011 5:01 pm

13013 wrote:
What are the chances of any of these probes traveling from interstellar to intergalactic space?
Escape velocity from the Milky Way ~ 250 km/s.
13013 wrote:
Or is it more probable that they will be pulled onto the gravitational fields of another star in our galaxy?
The probes will hardly notice the individual gravitational fields of other stars in our galaxy.

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by neufer » Fri May 06, 2011 4:54 pm

Matt wrote:
Do you think we'll be able to gather enough information that we're looking for in just a flyby?

What then, it just keeps going like the Voyager missions?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Horizons#Kuiper_belt_mission wrote:
<<Observations of Pluto, with LORRI plus Ralph, will begin about 6 months prior to closest approach. The targets will be only a few pixels across. This should detect any rings or any additional moons (eventually down to 2 kilometers diameter), for avoidance and targeting maneuvers, and observation scheduling. 70 days out, resolution will exceed the Hubble Space Telescope's resolution, lasting another two weeks after the flyby. Long-range imaging will include 40 km (25 mi) mapping of Pluto and Charon 3.2 days out. This is half the rotation period of Pluto-Charon and will allow imaging of the side of both bodies that will be facing away from the spacecraft at closest approach. Coverage will repeat twice per day, to search for changes due to snows or cryovolcanism. Still, due to Pluto's tilt and rotation, a portion of the northern hemisphere will be in shadow at all times.

During the flyby, LORRI should be able to obtain select images with resolution as high as 50 m/px (if closest distance is around 10,000 km), and MVIC should obtain 4-color global dayside maps at 1.6 km resolution. LORRI and MVIC will attempt to overlap their respective coverage areas to form stereo pairs. LEISA will obtain hyperspectral near-infrared maps at 7 km/px globally and 0.6 km/pixel for selected areas. Meanwhile, Alice :owl: will characterize the atmosphere, both by emissions of atmospheric molecules (airglow), and by dimming of background stars as they pass behind Pluto (occultation).
A simulated view of New Horizons passing Pluto and Charon when it arrives in 2015.

During and after closest approach, SWAP and PEPSSI will sample the high atmosphere and its effects on the solar wind. VBSDC will search for dust, inferring meteoroid collision rates and any invisible rings. REX will perform active and passive radio science. Ground stations on Earth will transmit a powerful radio signal as New Horizons passes behind Pluto's disk, then emerges on the other side. The communications dish will measure the disappearance and reappearance of the signal. The results will resolve Pluto's diameter (by their timing) and atmospheric density and composition (by their weakening and strengthening pattern). (Alice :owl: can perform similar occultations, using sunlight instead of radio beacons.) Previous missions had the spacecraft transmit through the atmosphere, to Earth ("downlink"). Low power and extreme distance means New Horizons will be the first such "uplink" mission. Pluto's mass and mass distribution will be evaluated by their tug on the spacecraft. As the spacecraft speeds up and slows down, the radio signal will experience a Doppler shift. The Doppler shift will be measured by comparison with the ultrastable oscillator in the communications electronics.

Reflected sunlight from Charon will allow some imaging observations of the nightside. Backlighting by the Sun will highlight any rings or atmospheric hazes. REX will perform radiometry of the nightside.

After passing by Pluto, New Horizons will continue further into the Kuiper belt. Mission planners are now searching for one or more additional Kuiper belt objects (KBOs) on the order of 50–100 km (31–62 mi) in diameter for flybys similar to the spacecraft's Plutonian encounter. As maneuvering capability is limited, this phase of the mission is contingent on finding suitable KBOs close to New Horizons's flight path, ruling out any possibility for a planned flyby of Eris, a trans-Neptunian object comparable in size to Pluto.[27] The available region, being fairly close to the plane of the Milky Way and thus difficult to survey for dim objects, is one that has not been well-covered by previous KBO search efforts.>>

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by 13013 » Fri May 06, 2011 4:40 pm

What are the chances of any of these probes traveling from interstellar to intergalactic space? How long will that take? Or is it more probable that they will be pulled onto the gravitational fields of another star in our galaxy?

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by Matt » Fri May 06, 2011 4:33 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
biddie67 wrote:Is the New Horizons spacecraft to go into orbit around Pluto -or- flyby?
A flyby, for the simple reason that there is no way to slow it down once it gets there. And it would have to slow down a LOT to remain in orbit around Pluto. It's going to zip by Pluto very fast- a short encounter after a long trip.
Do you think we'll be able to gather enough information that we're looking for in just a flyby? What then, it just keeps going like the Voyager missions?

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by Chris Peterson » Fri May 06, 2011 3:57 pm

biddie67 wrote:Is the New Horizons spacecraft to go into orbit around Pluto -or- flyby?
A flyby, for the simple reason that there is no way to slow it down once it gets there. And it would have to slow down a LOT to remain in orbit around Pluto. It's going to zip by Pluto very fast- a short encounter after a long trip.

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by neufer » Fri May 06, 2011 3:43 pm

biddie67 wrote:
What does "round trip light time" mean?
"Round trip light time" is important for communications.

If a Mars rover sees something unexpected (an avalanche, an alien ray gun, etc.)
its response by way of ground control involves "round trip light time."
biddie67 wrote:
Is the New Horizons spacecraft to go into orbit around Pluto -or- flyby?
Flyby.

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by neufer » Fri May 06, 2011 3:36 pm

biddie67 wrote:
if there is a component of the Sun's escape velocity that has to be dealt with during a spacecraft's lift through Earth's escape vlocity, is it great enough that there is a difference whether the launch site on Earth is facing the Sun or away from the Sun?
Because the Earth is in free fall only (second order) tidal effects are important.
Since tides run only about one meter high it would be roughly equivalent to launching from a meter high platform.

Much more important would be to launch from a mountain top (or from the equator which is 22.7 km higher than the poles).

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by biddie67 » Fri May 06, 2011 3:24 pm

Also-- What does "round trip light time" mean?

Is the New Horizons spacecraft to go into orbit around Pluto -or- flyby?

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by biddie67 » Fri May 06, 2011 3:15 pm

Fascinating APOD!!

Question based upon Jim Leff''s comment above :: if there is a component of the Sun's escape velocity that has to be dealt with during a spacecraft's lift through Earth's escape vlocity, is it great enough that there is a difference whether the launch site on Earth is facing the Sun or away from the Sun?

Question based upon Chris's comment above :: is the lack of current technology to overcome the Sun's escape velocity without the aid of gravitational assistance the reason that there isn't any space probes launched that are perpendicular to the solar plane?

Re: APOD: Farther Along (2011 May 06)

by neufer » Fri May 06, 2011 3:13 pm

Jim Leff wrote:
Curious: is the solar escape velocity from earth greater than the escape velocity of earth?
Escape Velocity from Earth = 11.186 km/s

Orbital speed around Sun = 29.78 km/s

Total speed needed to escape from the Sun = 29.78 * sqrt(2) = 42.12 km/s

Added velocity needed to escape from the Sun in the direction of orbit = 42.12 - 29.78 = 12.34 km/s

Actual Escape Velocity from Earth plus Sun (without planetary assists) = sqrt [(11.186)2 + (12.34)2] = 16.66 km/s

Top