APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

Re: Titan's lack of lightning

by bystander » Thu May 19, 2011 8:28 pm

neufer wrote:
http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00003040/ wrote:
Titan's lack of lightning
The Planetary Society Blog
By Emily Lakdawalla May. 19, 2011
The search for Titan lightning radio emissions - G. Fischer, D. A. Gurnett

Titan's lack of lightning

by neufer » Thu May 19, 2011 7:42 pm

APOD Robot wrote:Image It s Raining on Titan

Explanation: It's been raining on Titan. In fact, it's likely been raining methane on Titan and that's not an April Fools' joke. The almost familiar scene depicted in this artist's vision of the surface of Saturn's largest moon looks across an eroding landscape into a stormy sky. That scenario is consistent with seasonal rain storms temporarily darkening Titan's surface along the moon's equatorial regions, as seen by instruments onboard the Cassini spacecraft. Of course on frigid Titan, with surface temperatures of about -290 degrees F (-180 degrees C), the cycle of evaporation, cloud formation, and rain involves liquid methane instead of water. Lightning could also be possible in Titan's thick, nitrogen-rich atmosphere.
http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00003040/ wrote:
Titan's lack of lightning
The Planetary Society Blog
By Emily Lakdawalla May. 19, 2011

<<It's a fact of life in science that not all of your hypotheses will turn out to be correct (or even verifiable at all). But there's a bias toward the publication of positive results -- the discovery of this, or the proof of that. So I always find it refreshing to read a publication about hypotheses that didn't work out. A recent paper in Geophysical Research Letters by Georg Fischer and Don Gurnett describes "The search for Titan lightning radio emissions," a search that wound up fruitless.

It wasn't for lack of searching. Fischer and Gurnett used the Radio and Plasma Wave Science (RPWS) instrument, which can detect high-frequency radio emissions, from a total of 72 Titan flybys. RPWS has three perpendicular, 10-meter antennas and doesn't need to be pointed, so it doesn't interfere with the acquisition of data from other instruments (except in terms of how much of Cassini's precious onboard memory is needed to store the data). So RPWS could theoretically operate continuously for as much as 24 hours around Cassini's closest approach to Titan on each of those flybys. It wasn't used quite that much, but Cassini has listened for lightning on Titan for more than 600 hours. That is a lot of observation time.

Given the fact that Titan has convective clouds that produce rainfall, it really ought to have lightning. If Titan's lightning is as intense as Earth lightning, it would be detectable as "bursty" signals in the data within 35 Titan radii (or about 90,000 kilometers). Now, RPWS did record some bursts during one Titan flyby, but Fischer and Gurnett show that these bursts came from Saturn rather than Titan. Bursts from Titan would increase in intensity as Cassini approached Titan, and decrease as it flew away from Titan after the flyby, but all bursts recorded during Titan flybys did not change in intensity with Cassini's changing distance from Titan. Even more conclusive evidence that the bursts came from Saturn is that a burst shut off sharply as Cassini got very close to Titan and the big moon occulted a known storm-producing region on Saturn's disk.

Of course, the problem with a negative result is that it's difficult to prove a negative conclusively. Sure, they didn't find any evidence for lightning in 72 flybys. But it could just be a very rare event. There were a few "weak sporadic bursts" that they could not positively attribute to either Saturn or the Sun, but because of the many possible sources of radio bursts in the Saturn system, "a positive identification of Titan lightning still needs great care....we should demand at least a few dozen of intense bursts with a clear fall-off in intensity with distance to Titan for a positive identification of Titan lightning." Also, there are places in the solar system where there definitely is lightning that doesn't produce high-frequency radio emissions, notably Jupiter.

Why does anybody even care about lightning? Because of the Dr. Frankenstein-like spark it could give to the brew of organic materials floating in Titan's atmosphere. Lightning would efficiently produce hydrogen cyanide and cyanogen, materials that we think of as poisons but which form building blocks for more complex compounds that we think are necessary for carbon-based life, including amino acids. Even without mentioning life, the compounds that lightning would create in Titan's atmosphere are important to scientists trying to understand Titan's atmospheric chemistry -- how the atmosphere evolved, and how it affects Titan's weather and climate.>>

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by NoelC » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:21 am

CharlieNNC wrote:Whoa big fella!.. I agree with the other comment. Lightning in a nitrogen rich atmosphere with a methane river? Uhhh...nitromethane...the fuel that's burned in top fuel dragsters, and give it a spark with a bolt of lightning? Sounds like the ultimate combustion chamber to me. Always wondered if scientists ever think about things like sending a probe to gaseous planets with a Zippo installed, and see if it would ignite. Perhaps the EPA already has rules about lighting foreign planets.
You're just free associating here... That's not a bad thing, but...
  • Nitromethane isn't just nitrogen and methane together.
  • Nitromethane is burned with air in race cars - the fuel is combined with oxygen. Ever notice they have carburetors?
  • If ever we should land on a life-bearing planet, in which free oxygen has accumulated because of Photosynthesis or something, it may well be that we might accidentally light something on fire with the ship's retrorockets. But in such an environment it's not hard to imagine that lightning, volcanic activity, an incoming meteor, or SOME other source of heat will have beat us to the punch and the whole planet is simply not likely to suddenly burn up.
-Noel

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by bystander » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:59 pm

You need more than fuel, you also need an oxidizing agent.

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by CharlieNNC » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:55 pm

Whoa big fella!.. I agree with the other comment. Lightning in a nitrogen rich atmosphere with a methane river? Uhhh...nitromethane...the fuel that's burned in top fuel dragsters, and give it a spark with a bolt of lightning? Sounds like the ultimate combustion chamber to me. Always wondered if scientists ever think about things like sending a probe to gaseous planets with a Zippo installed, and see if it would ignite. Perhaps the EPA already has rules about lighting foreign planets.

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by jabm67 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:14 pm

neufer wrote:
jabm67 wrote:
booky1@earthlink.net wrote:
Titan is NOT in the equatorial ring plane except twice a month (one titan revolution). So you could often see the rings at a low angle.
Pushing a few numbers around, I think that from the points where Titan has the greatest displacement out of the ring plane, the rings would have an angular thickness of a couple of minutes of arc. That's below the limit of unaided vision.
One should distinguish seeing from resolving.

One has no trouble 'seeing' Saturn from Earth with unaided vision
though it is never more than a third of a minute of arc in diameter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_China#Visibility_from_low_earth_orbit wrote:
<<Based on the optics of resolving power...
[a line] object of reasonable contrast to its surroundings which is 1 arc-minute wide would be visible to the unaided eye.

Astronaut William Pogue thought he had seen the Great Wall of China [5 to 9 m wide] from Skylab [440 km] but discovered he was actually looking at the Grand Canal of China near Beijing. He spotted the Great Wall with binoculars, but said that "it wasn't visible to the unaided eye.">>
Sorry, I didn't make myself clear; I did mean resolving. Assuming one was looking in a wavelength that made it through Titan's cloud and haze layers, the rings are bright enough to see. But seeing them as something other than a bright arc ... no. The structure of the rings (like the Cassini division apparent in the picture) would be unresolvable by the unaided eye.

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by NoelC » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:56 pm

I like the way you think.

I'd kind of like to see what's on/under the surface of Europa first though, myself.

-Noel

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by alphachapmtl » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:22 pm

Wish this was a real picture.
We should send a lander there, with a Titan orbiter.
I know Huygens went there, but it could only send limited data for no more than 2 or 3 hours, because the Cassini probe had to be nearby to relay the signal to Earth.
It would cost just a few days of the Irak war.

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by wolfie138 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:27 am

no oxygen - so obvious when you point it out!
cheers all :-)

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by neufer » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:29 pm

Image
Guest wrote:if there are rocks on Titan made of typical earth-like materials - sulfates, silicates, carbonates, nitrates etc, the effect of lightning could produce oxygen. No explosion, since amounts would be small. However, with methane, nitrogen AND oxygen, all kinds of important life-chemicals could then be generated.

Deep in some Titanic cracks, some primitive life form may be lurking!

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by Guest » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:05 pm

wolfie138 wrote:alright, as someone not too well-versed in chemistry : if it's raining methane etc, how come the lightning wouldn't ignite it and cause a big explosion? :-/
An interesting further comment is that if there are rocks on Titan made of typical earth-like materials - sulfates, silicates, carbonates, nitrates etc, the effect of lightning could produce oxygen. No explosion, since amounts would be small. However, with methane, nitrogen AND oxygen, all kinds of important life-chemicals could then be generated. As is already known, Titan also has by-products from methane + sunlight and/or lightning, such as benzene and other simple organic products.
Deep in some Titanic cracks, some primitive life form may be lurking!

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by neufer » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:32 pm

jabm67 wrote:
booky1@earthlink.net wrote:
Titan is NOT in the equatorial ring plane except twice a month (one titan revolution). So you could often see the rings at a low angle.
Pushing a few numbers around, I think that from the points where Titan has the greatest displacement out of the ring plane, the rings would have an angular thickness of a couple of minutes of arc. That's below the limit of unaided vision.
One should distinguish seeing from resolving.

One has no trouble 'seeing' Saturn from Earth with unaided vision
though it is never more than a third of a minute of arc in diameter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_China#Visibility_from_low_earth_orbit wrote:
<<Based on the optics of resolving power...
[a line] object of reasonable contrast to its surroundings which is 1 arc-minute wide would be visible to the unaided eye.

Astronaut William Pogue thought he had seen the Great Wall of China [5 to 9 m wide] from Skylab [440 km] but discovered he was actually looking at the Grand Canal of China near Beijing. He spotted the Great Wall with binoculars, but said that "it wasn't visible to the unaided eye.">>

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by neufer » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:17 pm

biddie67 wrote:
Is oxygen the only element that supports combustion??
Fluorine, chlorine & even bromine are stronger oxidants than oxygen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halogen wrote:
<<Fluorine reacts vigorously with water to produce oxygen (O2) and hydrogen fluoride (HF):

2 F2(g) + 2 H2O(l) → O2(g) + 4 HF(aq)

Chlorine has minimal solubility of 0.7g Cl2 per kg of water at ambient temperature (21ºC). Dissolved chlorine reacts to form hydrochloric acid (HCl) and hypochlorous acid, a solution that can be used as a disinfectant or bleach:

Cl2(g) + H2O(l) → HCl(aq) + HClO(aq)

Bromine has a solubility of 3.41 g per 100 g of water,[5] but it slowly reacts to form hydrogen bromide (HBr) and hypobromous acid (HBrO):

Br2(g) + H2O(l) → HBr(aq) + HBrO(aq)

Iodine, however, is minimally soluble in water (0.03 g/100 g water @ 20ºC) and does not react with it. However, iodine will form an aqueous solution in the presence of iodide ion, such as by addition of potassium iodide (KI), because the triiodide ion is formed.>>

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by jabm67 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:15 pm

booky1@earthlink.net wrote:Titan is NOT in the equatorial ring plane except twice a month (one titan revolution). So you could often see the rings at a low angle.
Pushing a few numbers around, I think that from the points where Titan has the greatest displacement out of the ring plane, the rings would have an angular thickness of a couple of minutes of arc. That's below the limit of unaided vision.

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by neufer » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:58 pm

booky1@earthlink.net wrote:
You may actually be able to see Saturn in normal light. Dim, to be sure.
If the Huygens probe couldn't even see the Sun...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_%28moon%29 wrote:
<<The Huygens probe was unable to detect the direction of the Sun during its descent, and although it was able to take images from the surface, the Huygens team likened the process to "taking pictures of an asphalt parking lot at dusk".>>
booky1@earthlink.net wrote:
But there is another problem with the painting. From the equatorial region, the ring plane would be almost vertical. If you saw the primary near the horizon (as in the painting), the rings would point up and down. Or else the location is not in the equatorial region.
Correct... A tribute to Chesley Bonestell, no doubt:

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by biddie67 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:41 pm

Is oxygen the only element that supports combustion??

I love all the free oxygen that comes my way and comfortably live in the forest that is self-directed. I'm even comfortable with all the hordes of eco-friendly bacteria in this ol' world. I refuse to use hand-sanitizers and, so far, have had the good fortune to avoid hospitals with their growing colonies of monster GM bacterias and viruses .....

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by fangorn » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:25 pm

A lovely image, even if it is an artist’s imagination. We can always pick away at the technical details, but it still conjures up images of an alien environment. It is our imaginations that got a probe out there in the first place.

That said, I have a question about the technical details.... The rivulet of methane running down the slope seems to show ripples at the surface. I’m not a chemist, so I ask, given the properties of methane, the atmospheric pressure and composition, and the gravity on Titan, would ripples form in flowing liquid methane, as shown here?

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by booky1@earthlink.net » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:59 pm

You may actually be able to see saturn in normal light. Dim, to be sure.

Titan is NOT in the equatorial ring plane except twice a month (one titan revolution). So you could often see the rings at a low angle.

But there is another problem with the painting. From the equatorial region, the ring plane would be almost vertical. If you saw the primary near the horizon (as in the painting), the rings would point up and down. Or else the location is not in the equatorial region.

Another painting from about 20 years ago of the Huygens probe chuting down in the titanic atmosphere showed saturn in the background SILHOUETTED against the sky. Somebody did not do his/her homework!

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by APODFORIST » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:51 pm

Ann wrote:You couldn't see Saturn from Titan, unless you had infrared detecting eyes.

Ann
Why someone would need infrared detecting eyes to watch Saturn from Titan? Would the visible spectrum of Saturn's light(reflection) eliminated by Titans atmosphre?

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by NoelC » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:07 pm

neufer wrote:No oxygen.
It's interesting that many people don't realize that free oxygen isn't a given, but a (happy) consequence of billions of years of life and photosynthesis on this planet in the Goldilocks zone by the very entities (bacteria, plants) we seem to have been working SO hard to wipe out.

I cannot look at this picture of Titan without imagining a horrible, gagging death in just a few short moments.

Enjoy that oxygen while you have it, people.

-Noel

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by neufer » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:48 pm

biddie67 wrote:
Upon reading today's APOD, my immediate reaction was the same as wolfie138's above - wouldn't the lightning, if it existed, ignite the methane even when it is in liquid form?
No oxygen.

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by owlice » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:27 pm

Its orbital eccentricity is 0.0288, and it is inclined 0.348 degrees relative to the Saturnian equator.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_moon

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by orin stepanek » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:23 pm

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by rfvy1267 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:19 pm

Isn"t Titan in the same plane as the rings, which would mean that you would have to see the rings edge on from Titan?

Re: APOD: It s Raining on Titan (2011 Apr 01)

by owlice » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:08 pm

A previously-speculated but little-known NASA mission has been successfully completed. Two probes were sent to the moon to do further experiments on the lunar surface, some of which necessitated lighting up the fields of experimentation. Miniature rovers were released from the probes to gather information; tracking was done both through radio signals and visually, requiring that the fields be lit. Alert amateur and professional astronomers were stunned to see and capture this and similar images of the moon during the 20-minute period that portions of the moon were flooded with artificial light. Though initially the experiments were to run while the moon was new, the launching of the probes was delayed due to bad weather and the experiments were performed instead during the crescent phase.



Yes, I'm kidding.

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