Starship Asterisk*

by **dougettinger** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:46 am

John, thanks for this very interesting topic. It sounds like a blob of hot rock was expelled from the Icelandic "hot spot" and spread over the existing oceanic crust and settled in the North Sea area. Then as is the case with most "hot spot" islands, their weight eventually pushes down on the oceanic crust and they sink. I do not believe this is a swelling mechanism. This is an uplifting of new crust caused by volcanism; however, in this particular case the "hot glob" flowed over the oceanic crust to find a new location well away from the original rupture point where an island would normally form.

For me, this is an entirely new phenomena of "hot spots". Thanks for the reference.

The Tharsis plateau on Mars is definitely connected to volcanism and the 3000 km long canyon. It definitely appears that the canyon is the result of a crustal collapse. After the crust swelled, the hot underlying material flowed away and no longer supported to swelled, stiff, and cracked crust. This very large and long canyon appears not be tectonic in nature.

The question remains: what caused the swelling the Tharsis plateau on Mars ? I believe the answer was already given, but its implication was not fully understood.

4/05/2011

by **JohnD** » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:25 pm

Doug (Ettinger),
Planetary swellings.
A recent article in new Scientist (Pulsating planet; http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... -roll.html) describes recent findings on a known anomaly in the north North Sea, between Scotland and the Faroes. You need a subscription to read the whole article, so here goes with a precis.

There is evidence of 'fossil' river valleys in the sea bed, under two kilometers of silt. This suggests that the surface was above the sea at some time, but it was above the sea for only about a million years (!) 55 M ago. This is a very short period of geological time. A Cambridge UK team suggest that this was caused by a 'hot blob' of rock, rising up the Iceland hot spot and spreading out in the mantle like a ripple in a pond, raising the surface for a 'short' period. Similar fornmations are seen off Angola and in the Arabian Peninsula.
The original paper is at Earth and Planetary Science Letters
Volume 267, Issues 1-2, 1 March 2008, Pages 146-160

This is an explanation for transient uplifts, not for massive rifting, but it is a swelling mechanism.
An abstract is available online, but the link doesn't work
Try item 14 at:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 994b4745a0

John

by **dougettinger** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:41 pm

Thanks, John. Your suggestion is very appropriate. Again I am requesting any thoughts about why the Tharsis plateau on Mars has significant swelling which is quite different from features on other planets and satellites.

3/30/2011

by **JohnD** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:55 pm

geckzilla,
I'm not a moderator but if I were I'd say, take your software critique of APOD to some other thread on the board, and let us learn about Mars.

John

by **dougettinger** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:51 pm

Hello Dear Joe,

I know that you know a lot about some things. Using that knowledge try to form an opinion ( as they keep saying, it is a free country ) of why there exists an unusual swelling of the Tharsis plateau on Mars. You do not need a PhD, and if you lack references, Neufer will come to your aid.

Would you like me to offer my opinion ?

3/30/2011

by **joe blow** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:36 pm

The largest canyon in the Solar System-THAT WE KNOW OF, which in "MY" opinion is very very little/we know no-thing, man!

by **dougettinger** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:52 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
dougettinger wrote:Now, I posit the next question. What caused the Tharsis plateau to swell ?

While there is much not understood about volcanic and tectonic processes deep inside planets (including Earth), the Tharsis plateau and its associated volcanoes are similar to many structures on the Earth. It seems likely that similar processes are operating (or did operate) on both planets.

What caused the huge volcanism on Mars after its differentiation of crustal materials was completed ?

Volcanism and tectonics apply mainly to differentiated bodies. Before differentiation, the terms don't really apply. The volcanism on Mars does not appear any greater than that on Earth. The height of volcanoes and bulges is greater because of the lower Martian gravity. In addition, weathering and other erosive processes are much slower on Mars than on Earth. Volcanism and tectonics in general appear to be a natural consequence in bodies large enough to support fluid interiors.

Mountain ridges created by two tectonic plates colliding is quite different from a very large almost circular region bulging above the surrounding average altitude of a planet and creating the collapse of the crust. Chris, you mentioned similar structures on the Earth that are similar to the Tharsis plateau. Perhaps you are referring to regions in Africa and the Atlantic Ocean that have large rift zones ? Could you be specific and list a few of these structures ? Thank you.

3/29/2011

by **Sam** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:33 pm

NoelC wrote: Anyone besides me see the trumpet on wheels (which are of course needed for such a big trumpet).

I saw it too, but assumed it was just the Koozebanian "Face" on Mars.

http://asterisk.apod.com/viewtopic.php? ... an#p144097

Sam

by **geckzilla** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:44 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
geckzilla wrote:Because APOD still runs on tech that was used back when they put that man on the moon. I'm afraid it's incompatible with your newer tech.

(I'm actually not joking, here)
Actually, you are joking.

The web didn't exist in those days, nor the underlying http protocols that allow for the display of APOD and its associated hyperlinks. APOD is substantively identical to the vast majority of websites, and is perfectly compatible with the latest operating systems and browsers.

The only problem some folks are having is with software apps that were badly written or have otherwise failed to keep current. That has nothing to do with APOD at all. I'm sure none of those apps are failing because they are unable to fetch the APOD images, they are simply unable to run properly on some systems.

Correction, partially joking, partially not joking. All of the automated work is done with a Fortran script. The way it is set up (lack of database, all static pages) makes any kind of program for pulling the day's image rely on (surprisingly difficult) parsing of the html. As you can see, it's easy for it to go wrong. If APOD ran off a database it would be a simple matter of publishing an XML document or any number of simple scripting solutions to make things work a lot better. As it is, RJN and Jerry would have to either manually publish such a thing or update the Fortran script to do it for them. Either way it ends up more (completely unnecessary) work for the two editors.

by **Chris Peterson** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:20 pm

dougettinger wrote:Now, I posit the next question. What caused the Tharsis plateau to swell ?

While there is much not understood about volcanic and tectonic processes deep inside planets (including Earth), the Tharsis plateau and its associated volcanoes are similar to many structures on the Earth. It seems likely that similar processes are operating (or did operate) on both planets.

What caused the huge volcanism on Mars after its differentiation of crustal materials was completed ?

Volcanism and tectonics apply mainly to differentiated bodies. Before differentiation, the terms don't really apply. The volcanism on Mars does not appear any greater than that on Earth. The height of volcanoes and bulges is greater because of the lower Martian gravity. In addition, weathering and other erosive processes are much slower on Mars than on Earth. Volcanism and tectonics in general appear to be a natural consequence in bodies large enough to support fluid interiors.

by **dougettinger** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:12 pm

I see two large impact basins in the MOLA map. Which on is the Hellas Impact basin?

Lava flow will create a plateau, but will not swell the crust and then cause a portion to collapse in various places creating huge valleys. The falling debris could have created some the elevated terrain in the northern latitudes.

3/28/2011

by **BMAONE23** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:59 pm

dougettinger wrote:My survey of the forum has revealed very little support for an impactor on Mars causing the Valles Marineris except for Von Daniken; however, Mars is the site of some of the largest impact basins in the solar system and also has the largest mountain volcano. The Wikepedia reason for this largest of canyons is that the Tharsis plateau swelled and thereby caused the crust in the area of Valles Marineris to collapse. From my personal inspection and the analysis of the experts this canyon was not caused by a direct impactor, by massive flooding, by the shrinkage of the crust due to a cooling planet, or by a subduction zone between two tectonic plates. Also, another large canyon, Ma'adim Valles, is present on the high plateau regions of Mars. Does anyone disagree with the idea of the swelling of the plateau and collapse of the crust ? For most forum personnel Valles Marineris is so mysterious that they hide their heads in the sand like flamingos.

Now, I posit the next question. What caused the Tharsis plateau to swell ? What caused the huge volcanism on Mars after its differentiation of crustal materials was completed ? The answer is very important to uncovering a huge mystery here on Earth.

3/28/2011

Interestingly, when you look at the Mars MOLA map

: Click to view full size image

the Hellas impact basin sits at 45deg S Latitude and between 60 & 90deg Longitude.
Olympus Mons sits at 45deg N Latitude and 240deg Longitude.
This places the volcano almost exactly opposite the impact basin and is a possible cause for the existance of the solar system's largest volcano.
Much of the elevated region of the Tharsis Plateau could be a result of volcanism and lava flow from both Olympus Mons and
the other three major Tharsis volcanos Arsia Mons, Pavonis Mons, and Ascraeus Mons.
Another possibility is the debris from the Hellas Impact could have traveled around the globe of mars and settled there.
Or a possible combination whereby the Hellas debris settled on the far side from the impact and then was covered by resulting volcanism.

by **bystander** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:09 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:The only problem some folks are having is with software apps that were badly written or have otherwise failed to keep current. That has nothing to do with APOD at all. I'm sure none of those apps are failing because they are unable to fetch the APOD images, they are simply unable to run properly on some systems.

The primary culprit is the automatic backgrounder program advertised on the About APOD page. The software does not work on Windows 7 (nor linux) and is also the primary source of the many recent complaints of unrelated images being loaded to desktop backgrounds. It probably should be removed from About APOD, at least until it has been fixed.

by **dougettinger** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:04 pm

My survey of the forum has revealed very little support for an impactor on Mars causing the Valles Marineris except for Von Daniken; however, Mars is the site of some of the largest impact basins in the solar system and also has the largest mountain volcano. The Wikepedia reason for this largest of canyons is that the Tharsis plateau swelled and thereby caused the crust in the area of Valles Marineris to collapse. From my personal inspection and the analysis of the experts this canyon was not caused by a direct impactor, by massive flooding, by the shrinkage of the crust due to a cooling planet, or by a subduction zone between two tectonic plates. Also, another large canyon, Ma'adim Valles, is present on the high plateau regions of Mars. Does anyone disagree with the idea of the swelling of the plateau and collapse of the crust ? For most forum personnel Valles Marineris is so mysterious that they hide their heads in the sand like flamingos.

Now, I posit the next question. What caused the Tharsis plateau to swell ? What caused the huge volcanism on Mars after its differentiation of crustal materials was completed ? The answer is very important to uncovering a huge mystery here on Earth.

3/28/2011

by **Chris Peterson** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:46 pm

geckzilla wrote:Because APOD still runs on tech that was used back when they put that man on the moon. I'm afraid it's incompatible with your newer tech.

(I'm actually not joking, here)

Actually, you are joking.

The web didn't exist in those days, nor the underlying http protocols that allow for the display of APOD and its associated hyperlinks. APOD is substantively identical to the vast majority of websites, and is perfectly compatible with the latest operating systems and browsers.

The only problem some folks are having is with software apps that were badly written or have otherwise failed to keep current. That has nothing to do with APOD at all. I'm sure none of those apps are failing because they are unable to fetch the APOD images, they are simply unable to run properly on some systems.

by **bystander** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:37 pm

geckzilla wrote:APOD appeared daily on my desktop, a different shot each day of course, that I often would click on to bring up in my browser. With Win 7 it does not update and there is no accompanying explanation. Now I will have to bookmark it. If we can put a man on the moon, why can't I continue to get APOD on my desktop every day?

Because APOD still runs on tech that was used back when they put that man on the moon. I'm afraid it's incompatible with your newer tech.

(I'm actually not joking, here)[/quote]
APOD works fine, it his widget that doesn't work.

by **Indigo_Sunrise** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:18 pm

geckzilla wrote:
Indigo_Sunrise wrote:
kaigun wrote:Speaking of miles and kilometers, the text for the photo says the canyon is 3000km long, while the JPL video linked to says the canyon is 3000 miles long (NY to LA). Which is correct, and didn't we lose one of the Martian probes because of English unit/metric unit foul-up?

Has this been answered?
A quick Google search indicates that it is approximately 4000 kilometers long or 2500 miles long.

Thank you, googlezilla! Oooops! I mean, geckzilla!

by **geckzilla** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:04 pm

aristata wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
aristata wrote:But I write because I just switched to a Win 7 machine and have learned that APOD is not fully supported in that OS. Is this true, or is there any help for this situation?
APOD is a website. As such, it can be viewed by any compliant browser, running on any operating system that can support a browser. That includes Windows 7.

Are you seeing APOD via a browser, or perhaps using some third-party tool which displays its contents, creates wallpaper, or something along those lines? If so, it is perfectly possible for such an app to work only with a particular OS.
APOD appeared daily on my desktop, a different shot each day of course, that I often would click on to bring up in my browser. With Win 7 it does not update and there is no accompanying explanation. Now I will have to bookmark it. If we can put a man on the moon, why can't I continue to get APOD on my desktop every day?

Because APOD still runs on tech that was used back when they put that man on the moon. I'm afraid it's incompatible with your newer tech.

(I'm actually not joking, here)

by **geckzilla** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:03 pm

Indigo_Sunrise wrote:
kaigun wrote:Speaking of miles and kilometers, the text for the photo says the canyon is 3000km long, while the JPL video linked to says the canyon is 3000 miles long (NY to LA). Which is correct, and didn't we lose one of the Martian probes because of English unit/metric unit foul-up?

Has this been answered?

A quick Google search indicates that it is approximately 4000 kilometers long or 2500 miles long.

by **geckzilla** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:58 am

neufer wrote:
[size=125][b][color=#FF0000]1) Static plate tectonics[/color] => [color=#FF00FF]Enormous volcanic shields[/color] [color=#FF00FF]2) Enormous volcanic shields[/color] [color=#0000FF]+ ice => Enormous canyons[/color][/b][/size]

Well, now after this flamingo thing, I am pretty sure you just flipped us all off, Neufer.

by **Indigo_Sunrise** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:51 am

kaigun wrote:Speaking of miles and kilometers, the text for the photo says the canyon is 3000km long, while the JPL video linked to says the canyon is 3000 miles long (NY to LA). Which is correct, and didn't we lose one of the Martian probes because of English unit/metric unit foul-up?

Has this been answered?

by **aristata** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:03 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
aristata wrote:But I write because I just switched to a Win 7 machine and have learned that APOD is not fully supported in that OS. Is this true, or is there any help for this situation?
APOD is a website. As such, it can be viewed by any compliant browser, running on any operating system that can support a browser. That includes Windows 7.

Are you seeing APOD via a browser, or perhaps using some third-party tool which displays its contents, creates wallpaper, or something along those lines? If so, it is perfectly possible for such an app to work only with a particular OS.

APOD appeared daily on my desktop, a different shot each day of course, that I often would click on to bring up in my browser. With Win 7 it does not update and there is no accompanying explanation. Now I will have to bookmark it. If we can put a man on the moon, why can't I continue to get APOD on my desktop every day?

by **nonprophet** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:31 am

dougettinger wrote:The nonprophet's hypothesis also states that the collisional material accretes to become the Earth's moon. Martian gravity field and the necessary momentum and energy changes work against any substantial material moving toward the Earth's orbit. Any transfer of water should either be totally dispernsed or fall back to Mars or the impactor body.

But another body glancing Mars has been suggested.

3/27/2011

I never acquired the tools and knowledge needed to work out this sort of thing for myself, so I appreciate your help. I understand what you're saying and am satisfied that it's a good answer. Yes, I noticed while looking into this that it's been suggested another body's glancing impact with Mars could explain the Valles Marineris.

by **neufer** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:52 am

bbonomi wrote:
Instead of comparing it to surface features, why not look to the Mariana Trench in the Pacific? More comparable in size; possibly in origin. We think about plate tectonics here so maybe Valles Marineris is the edge of a tectonic plate that existed when Mars still had a molten core -- it wouldn't be a "split" caused by the cooling but rather the edge of an existing geological feature that solidified as it cooled?

ThinkerEmeritus wrote:
Wouldn't the Izu-Bonin-Mariana Arc be a better terrestrial comparison than the Grand Canyon? After all, the water covering the Earth shouldn't count against the Earth in comparisons with Mars.

Valles Marineris, the Grand Canyon and the Great Rift in Africa are all depressions in a highlands region.

The Mariana Trench is a depression in a lowlands region.

It would be apples & oranges.

by **Chris Peterson** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:08 am

aristata wrote:But I write because I just switched to a Win 7 machine and have learned that APOD is not fully supported in that OS. Is this true, or is there any help for this situation?

APOD is a website. As such, it can be viewed by any compliant browser, running on any operating system that can support a browser. That includes Windows 7.

Are you seeing APOD via a browser, or perhaps using some third-party tool which displays its contents, creates wallpaper, or something along those lines? If so, it is perfectly possible for such an app to work only with a particular OS.

Starship Asterisk*

APOD: Valles Marineris: The Grand Canyon... (2011 Mar 27)

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