APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by jman » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:16 am

bystander wrote:Have you tested that theory? or do you always get a refill before it runs out?
Ya, I wish I was that organized.
But uh oh - I just noticed a bigger problem, the clock appears to run out at midnight tonight!

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by bystander » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:46 pm

jman wrote::D Just poking fun at the prophecy and doomsday supporter types.
I'm pretty sure the word will not end just because my desk calendar runs out of pages.
Have you tested that theory? or do you always get a refill before it runs out?

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by jman » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:36 pm

:D Just poking fun at the prophecy and doomsday supporter types.
I'm pretty sure the word will not end just because my desk calendar runs out of pages.

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:25 am

jman wrote:[frantic] Where can we get these "New Age books"?
They are sadly easy to find, I'm afraid. You can probably see one or two on the bargain table near the entrance of most major bookstores.

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by bystander » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:06 am

jman wrote:[frantic] Where can we get these "New Age books"?
Amazon, Borders, Barnes & Noble, but why would you want to?

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by jman » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:25 am

[frantic] Where can we get these "New Age books"?

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:54 pm

JuanAustin wrote:sorry, what i meant was a predicted rare alignment of the sun in a galactic equinox. i just find it so incredible how they could be so skilled as to arrive at this information.
There is no rare alignment. As the Earth's axis precesses, the ecliptic crosses different points of the sky at different times of the year. Where we are now (and give or take a few thousand years) the center of galaxy happens to be in alignment with the Earth and Sun around the winter solstice. There is nothing special about this, it has no physical significance, it won't be unusual in 2012, and there's no indication at all that the Maya were even aware of precession.

Again, this is all modern urban myth, spawned by recent New Age books.

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by JuanAustin » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:32 pm

sorry, what i meant was a predicted rare alignment of the sun in a galactic equinox. i just find it so incredible how they could be so skilled as to arrive at this information.

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by bystander » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:23 pm

The Mayan Prediction is that the current long count will end on 2012 Dec 20, and a new one will begin on 2012 Dec 21.

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:09 pm

JuanAustin wrote:one last question..., has anyone casually or seriously considered any potential astronomical hazards related to the mayan Dec 2012 prediction? i still find it so incredible how such an ancient civilization could be so accomplished in astronomy.
There is no Maya prediction for 2012. That's a modern myth, created just a few years ago by people interested in selling doomsday books (always a good business).

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by JuanAustin » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:58 pm

one last question..., has anyone casually or seriously considered any potential astronomical hazards related to the mayan Dec 2012 prediction? i still find it so incredible how such an ancient civilization could be so accomplished in astronomy.

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by neufer » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:46 pm

rstevenson wrote:
JuanAustin wrote:
that's pretty frightening. are there any nearby likely candidates or are all our stellar neighbors in a stable situation?
do we have the capability to spot such a catastrophe in advance?
Not to worry. Nothing moves very fast relative to the vast distances of space. For example our second nearest neighbour, Barnard's Star, is moving in our general direction at a speed of about 140 km/sec but will only get to its closest approach of about 3.8 light years away in about 9200 years from now. Building a bunker might be premature.

It's possible there are nearer stellar neighbours, of the class brown dwarf, that we just haven't seen yet. But to have any near-future impact on Sol's system any such would have to be very close already and we'd probably be detecting perturbations in planetary and other orbits.

As for getting any warning, we've recently been putting into orbit some quite extraordinary technology. Within a few years we should have a very clear idea of just what else there is in our neighbourhood besides the obvious bright objects.
Barnard's Star is a very low-mass red dwarf star that will never be closer to us than Alpha Centauri.

Alpha Centauri, however, is somewhat bigger & brighter than the sun and should pass within 3.11 light years (197,000 AU) of us in approximately 26,700 years (brightening from a magnitude -0.27 to a magnitude -1.0 star).

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by bystander » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:45 pm

rstevenson wrote:It's possible there are nearer stellar neighbours, of the class brown dwarf, that we just haven't seen yet.
:twisted: :!: Nemesis :!: :twisted:
http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 31&t=18678

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by rstevenson » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:31 pm

JuanAustin wrote:that's pretty frightening. are there any nearby likely candidates or are all our stellar neighbors in a stable situation? do we have the capability to spot such a catastrophe in advance?
Not to worry. Nothing moves very fast relative to the vast distances of space. For example our second nearest neighbour, Barnard's Star, is moving in our general direction at a speed of about 140 km/sec but will only get to its closest approach of about 3.8 light years away in about 9200 years from now. Building a bunker might be premature.

It's possible there are nearer stellar neighbours, of the class brown dwarf, that we just haven't seen yet. But to have any near-future impact on Sol's system any such would have to be very close already and we'd probably be detecting perturbations in planetary and other orbits.

As for getting any warning, we've recently been putting into orbit some quite extraordinary technology. Within a few years we should have a very clear idea of just what else there is in our neighbourhood besides the obvious bright objects.

Rob

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by JuanAustin » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:30 pm

never mind, i figured out our closest star alpha centauri is approx 278,000 AU's so a 1 AU pass would put it between the orbit of mars and the asteroid belt, closer to mars actually. that's a near pass! hopefully, all our neighbors are happily moving in the same direction!

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by JuanAustin » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:08 pm

that's pretty frightening. are there any nearby likely candidates or are all our stellar neighbors in a stable situation? do we have the capability to spot such a catastrophe in advance?

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:55 pm

JuanAustin wrote:just out of curiosity, if one of these globular cluster stars "evaporated" as you put it, and was captured by our sun when it strayed nearby, what would be the effect on the earth and the other planets as it set up shop as a binary? what else could happen other than becoming a binary?
We are more likely to encounter a near pass by a star that has nothing to do with a globular cluster. That said, we are unlikely to capture any other star. In general, when you have two bodies that are not in a closed orbit around each other, one can never capture the other. A capture requires a transfer of momentum (a loss of energy by one body) involving an interaction with a third body. So it is possible that a binary system might capture a third member, but not likely that the Sun could capture another star. I say "not likely" rather than "impossible" because we do have Jupiter in our system which is massive enough to act as the third body, but realistically, it could only do so if the captured star was already in a nearly closed orbit to begin with (that is, only a touch over its escape velocity with respect to the Sun).
if it happened to be the same size as our sun, would the doubling of light burn us to a crisp?
If another star passed by within about 1 A.U. of the Earth, the increased energy would certainly be disastrous (pun intended). But this passing star would almost certainly disrupt all the planetary orbits, so even if we didn't get crisped by the star itself, we'd end up in a new orbit outside the habitable zone, or possibly be ejected from the Solar System completely. Any reasonable scenario you can construct with another star passing through our system pretty much means the end of most or all life on Earth.

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by JuanAustin » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:01 pm

just out of curiosity, if one of these globular cluster stars "evaporated" as you put it, and was captured by our sun when it strayed nearby, what would be the effect on the earth and the other planets as it set up shop as a binary? what else could happen other than becoming a binary?
if it happened to be the same size as our sun, would the doubling of light burn us to a crisp?

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:45 pm

JuanAustin wrote:Even in the densest globular Omega Centauri where there's 100 million stars in roughly the same volume of space as 47 Tuc?
The very densest globular cores might have stellar spacings around 0.1 pc. And if you assume really large stars, they might be 10 million km in diameter. In such a region, there is about 3 quadrillion (3e15) times more empty space than space occupied by stars. In other words, even the core of a large globular is essentially empty space.

Images of globulars tend to fool us, because all images show stars having apparent sizes thousands or millions of times larger than they actually are. If you could see the stars properly sized, you'd be looking right through wispy globular clusters to what lies behind.

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by JuanAustin » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:11 pm

Even in the densest globular Omega Centauri where there's 100 million stars in roughly the same volume of space as 47 Tuc?

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by neufer » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:20 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
nstahl wrote:
It seems to me I've read that planets in such a region would be perturbed enough by passing stars that they'd stand little chance of staying in orbit, even assuming they could form. And from what I read above there wouldn't be much solar energy to power life for a planet wandering randomly through such a region, so likely there are no astronomers there looking back toward us. Or at least no planet-based astronomers :).
It does seem likely that such a region would not allow stable planetary systems to exist.
[c]Sorry that no one was at home when we called. :(
We'll call back later.[/c]

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:06 pm

nstahl wrote:It seems to me I've read that planets in such a region would be perturbed enough by passing stars that they'd stand little chance of staying in orbit, even assuming they could form. And from what I read above there wouldn't be much solar energy to power life for a planet wandering randomly through such a region, so likely there are no astronomers there looking back toward us. Or at least no planet-based astronomers :).

Comments?
It does seem likely that such a region would not allow stable planetary systems to exist.

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by nstahl » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:51 pm

It seems to me I've read that planets in such a region would be perturbed enough by passing stars that they'd stand little chance of staying in orbit, even assuming they could form. And from what I read above there wouldn't be much solar energy to power life for a planet wandering randomly through such a region, so likely there are no astronomers there looking back toward us. Or at least no planet-based astronomers :).

Comments?

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:33 pm

JuanAustin wrote:how can so many stars in such a small space exist without collisions? do they repel each other? do they revolve around the center of the cluster or do they just float together evenly spaced? if they're such old components in and of themselves, surely they should've all crashed into each other after 15 billion years!
They attract each other, just like anything with mass. That means they are all in complex orbits- broadly around the center of mass of the cluster as a whole, and then highly perturbed by other stars in their local region of the cluster. You may think this sounds like a lot of stars in a small space, but in terms of the size of the stars themselves, a cluster is, for practical purposes, nearly empty space. You could zip back and forth across one millions of times and never hit a star. An arbitrary line drawn through a globular cluster is very unlikely to touch any stars. It also means that collisions will be very rare. Over billions of years, many more stars are lost to evaporation (that is, they pick up enough momentum from interactions to achieve escape velocity, and leave the cluster) than to collisions.

Re: APOD: Globular Star Cluster 47 Tuc (2011 Jan 16)

by JuanAustin » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:21 pm

how can so many stars in such a small space exist without collisions? do they repel each other? do they revolve around the center of the cluster or do they just float together evenly spaced? if they're such old components in and of themselves, surely they should've all crashed into each other after 15 billion years!

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