APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by neufer » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:59 am

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=76261 wrote: <<The sight of shafts of light streaming down from the heavens through a layer of clouds has provided many an artist, scientist, and philosopher with inspiration. Atmospheric scientists refer to this phenomenon as “crepuscular rays,” referring to the typical observation times at either sunrise or sunset. The shadowed areas bounding the rays are formed by clouds or mountain tops that block the path of sunlight or moonlight. However, obstructions alone are not sufficient to create crepuscular rays. The light also must be scattered by airborne dust, aerosols, water droplets, or molecules of air, providing a visible contrast between shadowed and illuminated parts of the sky. When observed from the ground, crepuscular rays appear to radiate outwards from the source of light due to the effects of distance and perspective. However, the rays are actually parallel. This astronaut photograph from the International Space Station provides an unusual viewing perspective from above the rays and a clear illustration of their parallel nature. The sun was setting to the west (image left) on the Indian subcontinent, and cumulonimbus cloud towers provided the shadowing obstructions. The rays are being projected onto a layer of haze below the clouds.

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by Jahdirt » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:52 am

And when I say the "curving with the Earth or the atmosphee" is a minor effect, I only mean of course the refraction that happens when light enters the atmosphere from space. Obviously there is no curving of light beams with the surface of the earth, unless absolutely fractionally from gravitational lensing.

I am totally stumped as to why Great Circles are mentioned in the caption but there they are. These light beams are essentially as straight and parallel as if they were traveling through open space.

cheers
j

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by Jahdirt » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:07 pm

Can anyone explain why "Great Circles" are mentioned in a photo of crepuscular/anticrepuscular rays?

The rays appearance is from perspective, and has nothing to do with the spherical nature of Earth, correct?

Why does the caption say that sun rays, when "projected on the Earth atmosphere, are Great Circles" when they are still just essentially parallel beams of light?

The explanation that they are Great Circles implies that they are curving with the Earth surface/atmosphere, which is a minor effect -- certainly not a Great Circle -- and not one that contributes to this phenomenon.

Can't crepuscular and anticrepuscular rays appear anywhere in space regardless of whether or not Earth is present?

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by sea otter » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:34 pm

My favourite part, in neufer's posted material, is when Neil deGrasse Tyson says "Its' all bad because we're human". :|

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by Céline Richard » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:05 pm

RADDAD wrote:Interesting discussions. Sometimes it is good just to ENJOY the photo or the phenomenon.
I understand, i like when a picture makes me dreaming too!! :)
I come to enjoy, but then... i have to admit that curiosity is something difficult to make vanishing.

Céline

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by NoelC » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:03 pm

You have my thanks as well Neufer, for sharing that video link - that was GREAT!

My favorite part: "Photoshop probably has a UFO button"

-Noel

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by owlice » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:49 pm

That's a great video, neufer; thanks for that!

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by neufer » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:37 pm

owlice wrote:
montylc2001 wrote:
The Flying Saucer Draught Emporium was closed down several months ago. It was a bar and grill which the owner named after his last job, a dishwasher at a restuarant. He was fired for slinging dishes at the owner, hence the "flying saucer", not UFO's
Well, yes. Who said anything about UFOs??
Neil deGrasse Tyson?
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by RADDAD » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:01 am

Interesting discussions. Sometimes it is good just to ENJOY the photo or the phenomenon. I first noticed this display while driving in eastern Oregon with my stepson. I stopped the car and we stood there wondering why the rays were reconverging toward the opposite horizon ... They should keep diverging from the point source!! Of course the "point" of origin is NOT a point at all, but a rather significant sphere called the sun. I think the easiest way to understand what is going on is to imagine standing on a railroad track and notice that perspective works in BOTH directions. I found the great circle projection explanation a bit confusing and inaccurate. These are simply straight parallel lines with disappearing points in both directions.

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by Céline Richard » Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:08 pm

This picture is so clear and so beautiful :) , i could imagine this:
APOD Robot wrote: Anticrepuscular rays photographed in 2001 from a moving car just outside of Boulder
From a moving car? We can see very well the animals and the landscape. So wonderful !

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by owlice » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:51 pm

montylc2001 wrote:The Flying Saucer Draught Emporium was closed down several months ago. It was a bar and grill which the owner named after his last job, a dishwasher at a restuarant. He was fired for slinging dishes at the owner, hence the "flying saucer", not UFO's
Well, yes. Who said anything about UFOs??

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by montylc2001 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:41 pm

owlice wrote:Ahem. http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 28&t=18054

Rule 4. Please heed. Thank you!

I should think that buildings would be able to create this phenomenon, wouldn't they?

(I'm amused to learn there is a Flying Saucer Draught Emporium; thanks for that!)
The Flying Saucer Draught Emporium was closed down several months ago. It was a bar and grill which the owner named after his last job, a dishwasher at a restuarant. He was fired for slinging dishes at the owner, hence the "flying saucer", not UFO's

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by owlice » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:31 pm

Ahem. http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 28&t=18054

Rule 4. Please heed. Thank you!

I should think that buildings would be able to create this phenomenon, wouldn't they?

(I'm amused to learn there is a Flying Saucer Draught Emporium; thanks for that!)

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by montylc2001 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:25 pm

neufer wrote:
montylc2001 wrote:
It would seem, Sir, that instead of engaging in a serious discussion concerning a phenomenon that I and others have witnessed over 30 years you would rather belittle others posts in some attempt to show your "superiority". The point I was trying to make was the same pattern occurs during a specific time frame of days each year. It is not weather related for not only does the pattern change over the course of several minutes as would be the case if clouds were causing it, but also during the course of several days the pattern is the same. My conjecture of which geological feature could be causing it was just that, conjecture, but when I determine which I will gladly let you know.
Great :!: I hope that you do, monty.

The Flying Saucer Draught Emporium is surrounded by tall buildings.
My conjecture is they may be the source of your Anticrepuscular Rays.
Right. Considering downtown Fort Worth is to the east of me your reply not only demonstrates your lack of maturity but also your credibility. I suppose your idea of the scientific method is based on your perception that you are "A legend in my own mind".

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by neufer » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:00 pm

montylc2001 wrote:
It would seem, Sir, that instead of engaging in a serious discussion concerning a phenomenon that I and others have witnessed over 30 years you would rather belittle others posts in some attempt to show your "superiority". The point I was trying to make was the same pattern occurs during a specific time frame of days each year. It is not weather related for not only does the pattern change over the course of several minutes as would be the case if clouds were causing it, but also during the course of several days the pattern is the same. My conjecture of which geological feature could be causing it was just that, conjecture, but when I determine which I will gladly let you know.
Great :!: I hope that you do, monty.

The Flying Saucer Draught Emporium is surrounded by tall buildings.
My conjecture is they may be the source of your Anticrepuscular Rays.

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by montylc2001 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:33 pm

It would seem, Sir, that instead of engaging in a serious discussion concerning a phenomenon that I and others have witnessed over 30 years you would rather belittle others posts in some attempt to show your "superiority". The point I was trying to make was the same pattern occurs during a specific time frame of days each year. It is not weather related for not only does the pattern change over the course of several minutes as would be the case if clouds were causing it, but also during the course of several days the pattern is the same. My conjecture of which geological feature could be causing it was just that, conjecture, but when I determine which I will gladly let you know.

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by neufer » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:31 am

montylc2001 wrote:indeed. hhhhmmmm. It will have to wait till summer to get the pics
1) The shadow of a New Mexico Mountain upon a cloud 100 miles away would be blurred beyond all recognition due to the finite 0.5º width of the sun.

2) The blurred shadow of a New Mexico Mountain would not even reach a cloud 300 miles away due to the curvature of the Earth.

3) Fort Worth is 500 miles away from the New Mexico Mountains.

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by montylc2001 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:41 am

indeed. hhhhmmmm. It will have to wait till summer to get the pics

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:24 am

montylc2001 wrote:You misconstrue. The rays I write of are after sunset and made by a range of mountains just past the horizon, which has to be part of the rockies.
The production of crepuscular rays is a basically local phenomenon- shadows from clouds that are typically less than 100 miles away (and usually much closer than that). I don't think there are any candidate mountains within a reasonable distance to the west of Ft Worth that could produce these shadows where you see them.

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by neufer » Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:03 pm

montylc2001 wrote:
You misconstrue.

The rays I write of are after sunset and made by a range of mountains just past the horizon, which has to be part of the rockies.
I construe. The nearest mountains are well into New Mexico.

If Boulder Colorado can't observe anticrepuscular rays off of the Rockies then you sure can't.

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by montylc2001 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:53 pm

You misconstrue. The rays I write of are after sunset and made by a range of mountains just past the horizon, which has to be part of the rockies.

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by neufer » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:29 pm

montylc2001 wrote:
From my vantage point in Fort Worth, Texas, these rays can be seen daily during sunset in the early summer (not the same rays of course) for about a 3 week period. However, seeing as the pattern is the same every day I came to the conclusion long ago that clouds were not the cause, rather the sunlight shining between mountain peaks. One day I will do the research to determine which mountains.
One thing I always enjoyed about Fort Worth, Texas, was all those mountain vistas. :roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Monsoon wrote: <<The North American monsoon, variously known as the Southwest United States monsoon, the Mexican monsoon, or the Arizona monsoon, is experienced as a pronounced increase in rainfall from an extremely dry June to a rainy July over large areas of the southwestern United States and northwestern Mexico. These summer rains typically last until mid-September when a drier regime is reestablished over the region. Geographically, the NA monsoon precipitation region is centered over the Sierra Madre Occidental in the Mexican states of Sinaloa, Durango, Sonora and Chihuahua.

The North American Monsoon is not as strong or persistent as its Indian counterpart, mainly because the Mexican Plateau is not as high or as large as the Tibetan Plateau in Asia. However, the North American Monsoon shares most of the basic characteristics of its Indian counterpart. There is a shift in wind patterns in summer which occurs as Mexico and the southwest U.S. warm under intense solar heating. As this happens, the flow reverses. The prevailing winds start to flow from moist ocean areas into dry land areas.

The North American monsoon is associated with an area of high pressure called the subtropical ridge that moves northward during the summer months and a thermal low (a trough of low pressure which develops from intense surface heating) over the Mexican Plateau and the Desert Southwest of the United States. The monsoon begins in late May to early June in southern Mexico and quickly spreads along the western slopes of the Sierra Madre Occidental, reaching Arizona and New Mexico in early July. The monsoon extends into the southwest United States as it matures in mid July when an area of high pressure, called the monsoon or subtropical ridge, develops in the upper atmosphere over the Four Corners region, creating an easterly to southeasterly wind flow aloft.

Pulses of low level moisture are transported primarily from the Gulf of California and eastern Pacific. The Gulf of California, a narrow body of water surrounded by mountains, is particularly important for low-level moisture transport into Arizona and Sonora. Upper level moisture is also transported into the region, mainly from the Gulf of Mexico by easterly winds aloft. Once the forests of the Sierra Madre Occidental green up from the initial monsoon rains, evaporation and plant transpiration can add additional moisture to the atmosphere which will then flow into Arizona. Finally, if the southern Plains of the U.S. are unusually wet and green during the early summer months, that area can also serve as a moisture source.

Monsoons play a vital role in managing wildfire threat by providing moisture at higher elevations and feeding desert streams. Heavy monsoon rain can lead to excess winter plant growth, in turn a summer wildfire risk. A lack of monsoon rain can hamper summer seeding, reducing excess winter plant growth but worsening drought.

Flash flooding is a serious danger during the monsoon season. Dry washes can become raging rivers in an instant, even when no storms are visible as a storm can cause a flash flood tens of miles away (never camp in a dry wash in the desert). Lightning strikes are also a significant danger. Because it is dangerous to be caught in the open when these storms suddenly appear, many golf courses in Arizona have thunderstorm warning systems.

Rainfall during the monsoon is not continuous. It varies considerably, depending on a variety of factors. There are usually distinct "burst" periods of heavy rain during the monsoon, and "break" periods with little or no rain. Monsoon precipitation, however, accounts for a substantial portion of annual precipitation in northwest Mexico and the Southwest U.S. Most of these areas receive over half their annual precipitation from the monsoon.

The North American Monsoon circulation pattern typically develops in late May or early June over southwest Mexico. By mid to late summer, thunderstorms increase over the "core" region of the southwest U.S. and northwest Mexico, including the U.S. and Mexican states of Arizona, New Mexico, Sonora, Chihuahua, Sinaloa and Durango. The monsoon typically arrives in mid to late June over northwest Mexico, and early July over the southwest U.S. Once the monsoon is underway, mountain ranges, including the Sierra Madre Occidental and the Mogollon Rim provide a focusing mechanism for the daily development of thunderstorms. Thus much of the monsoon rainfall occurs in mountainous terrain. For example, monsoon rainfall in the Sierra Madre Occidental typically ranges from 10 to 15 inches. Since the southwest U.S. is at the northern fringe of the monsoon, precipitation is less and tends to be more variable. Areas further west of the core monsoon region, namely California and Baja California, typically receive only spotty monsoon-related rainfall. In those areas, the intense solar heating isn't strong enough to overcome a continual supply of cold water from the North Pacific Ocean moving down the west coast of North America. Winds do turn toward the land in these areas, but the cool moist air actually stabilizes the atmosphere. The monsoon pushes as far west as the Peninsular Ranges and Transverse Ranges of southern California, but rarely reaches the coastal strip. As shown in the panorama above, a wall of thunderstorms, only a half-hour's drive away, is a common sight from the sunny skies along the coast during the monsoon.

This monsoon ridge is almost as strong as the one which develops over Asia during the summer. However, since the lower level moisture flow is not as persistent as in the Indian monsoon, the upper level steering pattern and disturbances around the ridge are critical for influencing where thunderstorms develop on any given day. The exact strength and position of the subtropical ridge also governs how far north the tropical easterly winds aloft can spread. If the ridge is too close to a particular area, the sinking air at its center suppresses thunderstorms and can result in a significant monsoon "break." If the ridge is too far away or too weak, the east winds around the high are inadequate to bring tropical moisture into the mountains of Mexico and southwest U.S. However, if the ridge sets up in a few key locations, widespread and potentially severe thunderstorms can develop.

Unlike the Pacific region of the United States and the west coast of Baja California, precipitation in the NA monsoon is not associated with large-scale mid-latitude cyclones, but with thunderstorms which have very different spatial/temporal distribution characteristics. The difficulty in understanding the variability of summertime convective activity in the southwestern U.S. and northwestern Mexico results from the complex interactions between atmospheric circulation features at both the synoptic (100 to 1000 km spatially, 1 day to 1 week, temporally) and mesoscale (several km to 100 km, hours to one day temporally) and the extremely varied topography. The larger-scale atmospheric motions may control the distribution of water vapor and the general stability or instability (that is, the tendency to form storms) in the atmosphere; nevertheless, local topographic effects are critical to the geographic and even temporal distribution of convective activity.

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by montylc2001 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:24 pm

From my vantage point in Fort Worth, Texas, these rays can be seen daily during sunset in the early summer (not the same rays of course) for about a 3 week period. However, seeing as the pattern is the same every day I came to the conclusion long ago that clouds were not the cause, rather the sunlight shining between mountain peaks. One day I will do the research to determine which mountains.

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by León » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:50 pm

No good explanation of Apod (above) says otherwise, I say this as I understand it, at dusk the light travels along the surface portion where the observer and partly by the other side, which mirrors a system of clouds ordinates are occasional light reentering the horizon opposite the start.

Rays on the opposite side to the sun also enter from below and not from above as it should according to the explanation

Re: APOD: Anticrepuscular Rays Over Colorado (2010 Nov 28)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:18 pm

biddie67 wrote:Hi - i'm a little confused. The description mentions a SETTING sun. If the picture is taken towards the WEST, wouldn't the light rays be called crepuscular? I would think that they could only be labelled anticrepuscular is the photo was taken facing eastward during a setting sun.

With the sky so full of light, it seems that the photo was taken facing westward; the sky would be darker if it were taken towards the east.
The picture was taken towards the east; looking west from Boulder, or anywhere near it, you see the mountains.

It is impossible to tell in a picture just how bright the sky actually was. But usually, crepuscular rays show up when the Sun is still above the horizon, so the sky is typically quite bright.

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