APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by mpharo » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:37 pm

Moonquakes Surprisingly Common
Oct 10, 2010

I wonder if moonquakes could also be caused by anything that causes earthquakes on earth; volcanic activity below ground. There are probably some pretty strong quakes there on the moon.



Michael Pharo

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by emc » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:59 pm

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by emc » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:51 pm

Massive Rocket Project, LA Times article, July 19, 2009

I visited the Huntsville, AL U.S. Space & Rocket Center museum last century. One of the many exhibits that I enjoyed was a section of a Saturn V on display inside the museum. I could track a single wire in the wiring harness (of many wires) around the wall of the rocket… amazing craftsmanship! A beautiful work of art and science!

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by orin stepanek » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:43 am

bystander wrote:
orin stepanek wrote:I'm not the handiest with photo shop; though my son is. I'd have to ask him. But; lets see. :? You'd have to paste in the Lunar landscape; paste in the photo of the Earth; but wait;-- you have to be in outer space to get that photo!?!?!?? How do they do that. :shock: :wink:
With that massive rocket you saw.
Click to play embedded YouTube video.
Cute! :mrgreen: But not built yet.http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... nal-issues

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by bystander » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:23 pm

orin stepanek wrote:I'm not the handiest with photo shop; though my son is. I'd have to ask him. But; lets see. :? You'd have to paste in the Lunar landscape; paste in the photo of the Earth; but wait;-- you have to be in outer space to get that photo!?!?!?? How do they do that. :shock: :wink:
With that massive rocket you saw.
Click to play embedded YouTube video.

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by mexhunter » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:16 pm

owlice wrote:
mexhunter wrote:These photos always evoke memories of the event.
Only for those of us old enough to remember the event! :D
It is a cover of collection, in very short time it will have 50 years.
Treat it with care.
Many greetings
César

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by Ann » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:29 am

noki wrote:Where are the stars in the sky? :o There are NO stars or planets visible in the photo!

I know there is bright sunlight, but there is no atmosphere on the moon... shouldn't you be able to see the stars? :?: :mrgreen:
No. Absolutely not. If there had been stars visible in the sky, then the picture would definitely have been photoshopped.

It's broad daylight in this picture. Yes, the sky is black as it always is on the Moon, but the contrasts between light and darkness are extremely glaring, almost blinding. It is impossible to see stars under such conditions. The camera can't see stars either, not under the conditions that the photo was acquired. Remember that an astroimages that show stars in the sky have usually been "gathering light" for minutes or longer. The photo of Buzz Aldrin was probably taken in less than a second.

Ann

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by noki » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:01 am

Where are the stars in the sky? :o There are NO stars or planets visible in the photo!

I know there is bright sunlight, but there is no atmosphere on the moon... shouldn't you be able to see the stars? :?: :mrgreen:

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:38 pm

JuanAustin wrote:thanks chris, so....what you are saying to my original question is that universal time will be the convention used everywhere everywhen, no matter if you're on the earth's moon or jovian moon or all points in between? if so, what time would it be if someone asked you or you were following some protocol somewhere that you needed to measure time/day? would they be Star Trek like or what exactly?
Not everywhere. If we had a colony on Mars, I'd expect its time to be based on the Martian day (the sol). That's because Mars rotates once every 24.6 hours, so it makes perfect sense to break the day up into 24 mars-hours, each with 60 mars-minutes of 60 mars-seconds. That's only for civil time, of course, like when people get up, go to work, eat, go to bed. You wouldn't use mars-seconds for anything critical; the standard second would still be used as the basis for any critical timekeeping.

In general, if your environment has a natural diurnal cycle near 24 hours, it makes sense to develop a local time system. Otherwise, you need an artificial system in any case, so you might as well use Earth's, in which case UT probably makes the most sense (although the time zone of the command base on Earth might make sense, too).

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by JuanAustin » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:19 pm

thanks chris, so....what you are saying to my original question is that universal time will be the convention used everywhere everywhen, no matter if you're on the earth's moon or jovian moon or all points in between? if so, what time would it be if someone asked you or you were following some protocol somewhere that you needed to measure time/day? would they be Star Trek like or what exactly?

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by orin stepanek » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:55 pm

bystander wrote:
orin stepanek wrote:I don't think this was staged. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NASA- ... thrise.jpg
Obviously photoshopped! :roll:
I'm not the handiest with photo shop; though my son is. I'd have to ask him. But; lets see. :? You'd have to paste in the Lunar landscape; paste in the photo of the Earth; but wait;-- you have to be in outer space to get that photo!?!?!?? How do they do that. :shock: :wink:

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by nz1m » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:49 pm

Just above the lunar seismometer is an angle'd white "box." I'm assuming this is the packet of corner cube retro reflectors deployed about all the landing sites? An earthbound laser would target the retroreflectos for several reasons. First, to time the light's return to accurately measure the moon's max and minimum orbital distance. Next to more precisely map the landing locations.

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by bystander » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:35 pm

orin stepanek wrote:I don't think this was staged. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NASA- ... thrise.jpg
Obviously photoshopped! :roll:

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by dogcroucher » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:15 pm

This question's intrigued me for some time: why is the flag "flying?" Shouldn't it be hanging languidly on its staff, or sort of flopping downward in the low gravity? Did they starch it to extend outward rigidly? I assume they must have done something to make it "fly" so, for the pictures. Is it some super-thin mirco film that "flies" in the solar wind? There isn't enough atmosphere there to make any other kind of wind, right?

Is there any information on how they anticipated this problem and the solutions they considered?

Re: The Flag

by Chris Peterson » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:01 pm

dogcroucher wrote:This question's intrigued me for some time: why is the flag "flying?" Shouldn't it be hanging languidly on its staff, or sort of flopping downward in the low gravity? Did they starch it to extend outward rigidly? I assume they must have done something to make it "fly" so, for the pictures. Is it some super-thin mirco film that "flies" in the solar wind? ;) There isn't enough atmosphere there to make any other kind of wind, right?

Is there any information on how they anticipated this problem and the solutions they considered?
There is a rod running across the top of the flag, so it stays extended. They did, indeed, anticipate the problem and deal with it (in order to get nice PR photographs, of course- it is important to remember that going to the Moon was only partly about the science). The flags are made of Nylon, and are ordinary, commercially available flags ordered by NASA from a flag company. Nothing special, except for the support system.

There are film segments all over the Web showing these flags being planted, and you can see from the way they move how the flags are actually constructed.

The Flag

by dogcroucher » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:34 pm

This question's intrigued me for some time: why is the flag "flying?" Shouldn't it be hanging languidly on its staff, or sort of flopping downward in the low gravity? Did they starch it to extend outward rigidly? I assume they must have done something to make it "fly" so, for the pictures. Is it some super-thin mirco film that "flies" in the solar wind? ;) There isn't enough atmosphere there to make any other kind of wind, right?

Is there any information on how they anticipated this problem and the solutions they considered?

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:31 pm

Ann wrote:There is no shadow of a straight line on Buzz Aldrin's leg. That's a grid mark. You can see that those grid marks extend all over the picture to the right, evenly spaced. There is a second row of grid marks below the top one. There is an upper row of grid marks too, but you can't see them against the blackness of space. One is visible against the Moon lander, though.

Grid marks were common in early astronomy imagery...
In a much later image of "the Face on Mars", revealing it not to be a face, there are no grid marks, since they are hardly ever seen in modern astrophotography...
I think he is talking about the shadow cast by the adjacent solar panel. Of course, he's wrong that you can't get a natural shadow that looks straight on a curved object.

The subject of the grid marks is very interesting, though. Those of us old enough to remember early space photography, or who enjoy historical images, recall seeing them all the time. They are called fiducials and are produced by reticles, lines etched on glass plates called reseau plates. They were used with film, because film is dimensionally unstable- it can stretch a bit. By pressing the film against the reseau plate for reference, much more accurate dimensional data could be taken from the images.

You don't see these used anymore because we don't use film anymore. CCDs and most other electronic sensors are inherently stable dimensionally, and are pixel based (an exception is scanned tube images, and cameras with those sensors- now obsolete- normally included reticles). When you work with a CCD image, you know exactly where each pixel is, so you don't need an external reference.

Film has many problems that CCD detectors largely avoid. Besides the mechanical instability, it has a very non-linear response, its resolution varies with contrast, and light scatters in the emulsion layer. Because of these effects, the fiducials can look very strange sometimes- I've seen them (or parts of them) inverted, invisible, or appearing to be behind objects in the image. All of these things are pretty easy to understand, but provide material for conspiracy nuts who claim the images are faked (although why somebody faking images would make such obvious "mistakes" is never explained).

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by rstevenson » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:34 pm

Yoric wrote:I want to believe the US landed on the moon, but in this photo, Buzz Aldrin, Apollo 11, it is completely impossible for nature to draw the shadow of a straight line across someone's leg.
If you are referring to the shadow across Buzz's right foot, that is just a coincidence of alignment. If the camera were a little higher or lower, you'd see the shadow curve around the leg.

You can easily set up an experiment to show yourself this effect. Then you can come back and say Oops!

Rob

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by biddie67 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:10 pm

I wonder if any of the astronauts that walked the Moon ever mentioned feeling a moonquake .... it's interesting to me that of all the possible types of instrumentation that could have been left behind for monitering the environment, a seismometer was one of the ones left there.

Even though it was back in the late 60's, wasn't there other types of instruments available for monitoring and measuring other types of solar system characteristics?

Now, with all the extra skills and equipment, It seems that the back side of the Moon, being free of Earth's atmosphere would make it an ideal place to place all kinds of instruments - especially with the possibility of having a satellite placed at the L2 point in the Earth-Moon system ((I just read about that as I followed links from today's APOD)) to transmit info back to Earth.

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by Tiago » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:47 pm

Maybe the moonquakes are related someway to the effect of gravity and tidal waves that could affect the moon's surface. Just like what occours in the jupiter's moons but in a much smaller scale, obvious.

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by kjmerz » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:01 pm

It was actually called the Lunar Excursion Module (LEM), not the Lunar Landing Module...

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by orin stepanek » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:06 pm

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by Ann » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:02 am

So you are allowed to state your belief in alternative theories (there was no Moon landing, we are regularly visited by ET, the Earth is flat, the greatest threat to the survival of humanity is the evil killer tomatoes from Epsilon Eridani b etecera) - but you are not allowed to explain why you believe in these alternative theories?

Okay, Owlice. Just so I know.

By the way, I don't believe in the Moon landing because I firmly believe that the Moon is made of cheese, and its surface is too spongy to take the blasts from the Moon lander during the landing phase. (Oh, wait, I was not allowed to say that - so I'll just say that I don't believe in the Moon landing because I know that the Moon is made of cheese!)

Image

Ann

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by owlice » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:30 am

mexhunter wrote:These photos always evoke memories of the event.
Only for those of us old enough to remember the event! :D

Re: APOD: Moonquakes Surprisingly Common (2010 Oct 10)

by owlice » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:16 am

Ann wrote: What exactly do you base your opinion on, Giordano Bruno?

Ann
Doesn't matter, Ann; this is not a board for alternative theories. There are other places on the web to discuss them; this is not one of them, as the rules clearly state:
Alternative Theories and Conspiracy Theories
This board concentrates on the mainstream or consensus view of cosmology. Alternative theories and conspiracy theories are not discussed here. We may decide to allow limited discussion of these at some later date. For now, however, we ask that you take these discussions to other boards that allow such discussions, such as The BAUT Forum.
The idea of the moon landing being a hoax falls under conspiracy theories. People believe a lot of silly things; I, for one, often believe I'm Superwoman and that I can get a lot of things done in much less time than it actually takes to do them. Some people believe humans never walked on the moon. Those who wish to believe that are welcome to, and they are welcome to discuss that elsewhere. Asterisk is not the place for these discussions.

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