APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by Beyond » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:04 pm

neufer wrote:
APOD Robot wrote:Image Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275

Explanation: This color composite image highlights the resulting galactic debris and filaments of glowing gas, some up to 20,000 light-years long. The filaments persist in NGC 1275, even though the turmoil of galactic collisions should destroy them. What keeps the filaments together? Observations indicate that the structures, pushed out from the galaxy's center by the black hole's activity, are held together by magnetic fields.
What keeps the filaments together? Observations indicate that the structures,
pushed out from the galaxy's center by the black hole's activity, are held together by albumen .
Now C'mon, art. Are you just trying to "egg" us on :?: How about a little fruit in all that albumen? :P :P Do you like your raspberries red or black? :lol:

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by jman » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:57 pm

beyond wrote:Really makes one wonder just how so many "stupid" things got handed down and piled upon us that we have to dig through.
I think the answer: is another topic we're not allowed to discuss here.

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by neufer » Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:25 am

APOD Robot wrote:Image Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275

Explanation: This color composite image highlights the resulting galactic debris and filaments of glowing gas, some up to 20,000 light-years long. The filaments persist in NGC 1275, even though the turmoil of galactic collisions should destroy them. What keeps the filaments together? Observations indicate that the structures, pushed out from the galaxy's center by the black hole's activity, are held together by magnetic fields.
What keeps the filaments together? Observations indicate that the structures,
pushed out from the galaxy's center by the black hole's activity, are held together by albumen .

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by bystander » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:26 pm

APOD: 2008 Aug 22 - Active Galaxy NGC 1275
http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... =9&t=14422

Sparkle | NASA IOTD | 30 Dec 2010
This Hubble Space Telescope image of galaxy NGC 1275 reveals the fine, thread-like filamentary structures in the gas surrounding the galaxy. The red filaments are composed of cool gas being suspended by a magnetic field, and are surrounded by the 100-million-degree Fahrenheit hot gas in the center of the Perseus galaxy cluster.

The filaments are dramatic markers of the feedback process through which energy is transferred from the central massive black hole to the surrounding gas. The filaments originate when cool gas is transported from the center of the galaxy by radio bubbles that rise in the hot interstellar gas.

At a distance of 230 million light-years, NGC 1275 is one of the closest giant elliptical galaxies and lies at the center of the Perseus cluster of galaxies.

The galaxy was photographed in July and August 2006 with Hubble's Advanced Camera for Surveys.
Credit: NASA, ESA, and the Hubble Heritage (STScI/AURA)-ESA/Hubble Collaboration;
Acknowledgment: A. Fabian (Institute of Astronomy, University of Cambridge, UK)

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by dougettinger » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:44 pm

Hello Beyond,
Your moniker is "to find the truth, you must go beyond." I believe there are plenty of existing truths strewn about all of man's mental blocks, beliefs, myths, and legends. What scientists must do is "find more truths by going beyond."

Let me test if you can go beyond. What is gravity ? Where is the gravitron ? What was Einstein trying to do with his Unified Force Theory ? Tell me what YOU think gravity really is ?

Doug Ettinger
Pittsburgh, PA

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by Beyond » Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:44 pm

Especially people who sailed the sea and saw the land they came from fastly disappearing over the Horizon.
And of course it worked the other way from those on the land watching the ships disappear over the Horizon.

Really makes one wonder just how so many "stupid" things got handed down and piled upon us that we have to dig through.

I think thats how Scientists got started. They were the first to go through things to try and get a better truth and over time just tried to stay with the facts they found and discounted everything else except the facts.
Non-Scientist types tend to include almost everything but the facts (most of the time) and so usually see things much differently then the Scientists.

One of these days both groups of people may just realize that they should get together and see just what fits where and then discard the leftovers and study whats left.
The future always shines brightly with hope -- until it becomes the Present. Once you open the present, the excitment disapates.

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by Chris Peterson » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:59 pm

tesla wrote:You know for a long time people thought the Earth was flat......
Actually, this belief is a myth. Educated people have known for thousands of years that the Earth was not flat.

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by bystander » Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:15 am

tesla wrote:You know for a long time people thought the Earth was flat......
Yeah, and the sun revolves around the earth and it's turtles all the way down. Your point is ???

Plasma cosmology is not discussed here. Go somewhere else if you wish to discuss it.

Case closed. :evil:

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by tesla » Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:41 am

You know for a long time people thought the Earth was flat......

Tesla

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:25 pm

Junk science doesn't stop being junk science because somebody puts up a website.

Almost all of these ideas have long since been discredited (meaning, from a scientific standpoint they have been demonstrated to be wrong).
If you are really a scientist you will consider different viewpoints and not dismiss them out of hand
The area has been considered. It is known that these ideas do not describe how the Universe works. At this point, a scientist considering the subject is simply wasting his time. These viewpoints are quite properly not investigated, any more than scientists are investigating if the Earth is the center of the Solar System or if the Sun produces energy by gravitational attraction.

Once an idea is disproven, scientists are no longer obligated to spend any time considering that idea. And good scientists won't.

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by owlice » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:14 am

tesla wrote:If you are really a scientist you will consider different viewpoints and not dismiss them out of hand
Not all viewpoints are worthy of consideration.

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by bystander » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:05 am

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by tesla » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:53 am

owlice wrote:
tesla wrote:What keeps the filaments together? well that should be obvious. The filaments are held together by magnetic fields, (how do you measure magnetic fields 230 million light years away?), which implies electrical current. No other reason. (These are not fridge magnets)
Tesla
Tesla, again: got citations?

Oh, no, no, you don't.
Hi Owlice,
Please look at http://www.plasmauniverse.info/papers-cosmology.html
Your citations will only support your viewpoint as these published papers above will support a different one. It comes down to observed facts. What sort of equipment is used to measure magnetic fields 230 million light years away?
If you are really a scientist you will consider different viewpoints and not dismiss them out of hand
Tesla

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by owlice » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:35 am

jjohnson wrote:The world's largest professional organization is the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE). Their section on Nuclear and Plasma Physics states that 99% or more of the observable universe is in a plasma state.
emphasis mine

What does "their section" refer to? "Their section" of what?

My brother is a electronics engineer; I think he'd be pretty surprised to be thought an expert on cosmology! :shock:

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by bystander » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:03 am

@jjohnson, tesla, et al

While Hannes Alfvén was well regarded in the fields of electrical engineering and plasma physics, that does not necessarily equate to expertise in physical cosmology. Plasma cosmology is largely unsubstantiated and widely discredited. I would be very surprised to find it supported by the majority of the membership of the IEEE and/or the NPSS. As a non-standard cosmology, it is beyond the scope of this forum and is not a topic open for discussion (Rule 15).

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by geckzilla » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:50 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
geckzilla wrote:Anyone know what the faint, yellow, symmetrical structure on the right, mid upper edge is?
All the fuzzy yellow objects around the edges are background galaxies. The one you are referring to doesn't seem to be in the catalogs called up by VizieR, so I don't know its designation.
I thought it was a galaxy. I can't recall ever seeing one so perfectly in the shape of a figure 8, though. I did a quick search for other similar shaped galaxies and could find none. Do you know of any others?

Edit: Maybe hourglass would be a better description... Or, I don't know. It reminds me of magnetic poles.

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:53 pm

jjohnson wrote:Regarding the filamentary tentacles of "hot gas" - which NASA explains is a common term for ionized gas, which is matter in the plasma state, whether weakly or wholly ionized. We are looking at a fairly energetic plasma-filled cosmic space.
You need to be careful with what "filled" means. In fact, these regions that show up in images like that of today have densities that we'd call a "hard vacuum" in the lab. This is why electric currents in most of the Universe are weak to non-existent.
Filamentary structures are not and can not be formed under gravity-only forces; they are a natural and particularly common outgrowth of electromagnetic forces operating in cosmic plasmas.
Not so. Filamentary structures are readily created by tidal forces, a type of gravitational force. This is the only type of force responsible for filaments containing high mass, such as trails of stars in colliding galaxies. Magnetic forces are responsible for structure in tenuous filaments of gas. In general, electrical forces are not present.
Gravity is intrinsically a weaker force than the electromagnetic force
So it is. But it is the only fundamental force in the Universe that operates over vast distances. Electrical currents are largely limited to stars and their immediate surroundings. Magnetic fields may extend through galaxies, but they are extremely weak compared with gravity: they don't influence the behavior of anything larger than free atoms.

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by jjohnson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:02 pm

Regarding the filamentary tentacles of "hot gas" - which NASA explains is a common term for ionized gas, which is matter in the plasma state, whether weakly or wholly ionized. We are looking at a fairly energetic plasma-filled cosmic space. The world's largest professional organization is the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE). Their section on Nuclear and Plasma Physics states that 99% or more of the observable universe is in a plasma state. Cool, condensed matter planets with atmospheres like where we live are an exception; stars, molecular clouds, stellar 'winds', stellar and galactic 'jets', and galactic and interstellar galactic filaments are the norm for plasma conditions. Plasma conditions and large birkeland electric currents exist all around Earth from the ionosphere to the magnetosphere, including the Van Allen belts, and the Earth's polar auroras.

In Cosmic Plasma, [D. Reidel Publishing Co. of the Kluwer Group, Dordrecht, The Netherlands, 1981; ISBN 90-277-1151-8, page 22] Hannes Alfvén (Nobel Laureate, 1970, in Physics for his development of magnetoelectrohydrodynamics (MHD), wrote:
...in cosmic plasmas the perhaps most important constriction mechanism is the electromagnetic attraction between parallel currents. A manifestation of this effect is the pinch effect, which was studied by Bennett long ago (1934), and has received much attention in connection with thermonuclear research... phenomena of this general type also exist on a cosmic scale, and lead to a bunching of currents and magnetic fields to filaments or 'magnetic ropes'. This bunching is usually accompanied by an accumulation of matter, and it may explain the observational fact that cosmic matter exhibits an abundance of filamentary structures (II.41)... the pinch effect has been very thoroughly studied in the laboratory. Indeed, the magnetic mirror technique used for thermonuclear plasma confinement is based on the pinch effect. In cosmic physics, however, it is very often forgotten. For example, the formation and evolution of interstellar clouds is normally treated by neglecting this effect, in spite of the fact that it must necessarily be of decisive importance (IV.8 and V.4). This has led to the regrettable result that this field and quite a few other fields of astrophysics have run into dead ends.
As we see repeatedly in APODs, filamentary structures are constantly being imaged: on and above the Sun, in the aurorae on Earth, Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune, in the ionosphere of Venus, in the Veil Nebula, in the collimated 'jets' from active galaxies which decelerate into twisted, filamentary plumes light years long (NRAO VLA images; DRAGN images from Jodrell Bank, and in the H1 images of filamentary gas and dust lanes ("dusty plasma") between and among galaxies and galaxy clusters. Filamentary structures are not and can not be formed under gravity-only forces; they are a natural and particularly common outgrowth of electromagnetic forces operating in cosmic plasmas. Hubble's legacy, Spitzer's infrared observations, SOHO, Hinode, SDO, TRACE, The Swedish Institute for Solar Physics and many others in helioastronomy, Chandra's X-ray visions, and the NRAO VLA and other radio astronomy observatories' radio images present gorgeous but silent testimony to this fact.

A static magnetic field can be generated by either a constant current (an electric current; i.e., a flow of moving charged particles, in this case whose flux density does not vary with time) or a permanent magnet [such as a bar magnet]... Time variable magnetic fields are created by electric fields, E, generated by time varying current flow I. (Reference: Schaum's Outline Series, Electromagnetics, Second Edition, McGraw-Hill, 1993, ISBN 0-07-021234-1; Chapter 9, Ampere's Law and the Magnetic Field, 9.1 and Chapter 13, Maxwell's Equations and Boundary Equations, 13.5, Maxwell's Equations.)

Magnetic fields in galaxies and the Sun can be detected by a number of methods, including optical polarization; Zeeman splitting of radio lines (caused when emitting or radiating atoms enter a magnetic field - observed by examining emission lines on a spectrograph); Faraday rotation of polarized radio emission, and strength of synchrotron emission. (Reference: Physics of the Plasma Universe, Anthony Peratt, Springer-Verlag, 1992, ISBN 0-387-97575-6; Chapter 3. Biot-Savart Law in Cosmic Plasma, pp.119-122). Solar astronomers and radio astronomers routinely use one method or another to observe the magnetic fields on our star and in our and other nearby galaxies. They are familiar with the invariable linkage between observed magnetic fields and the electrical currents which invariably cause them. (There are not a lot of little bar magnets floating around in space creating only static magnetic fields.) See also publications by radio astronomer Bryan Gaensler, University of Sydney, at http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~bmg/

So there is the picture when you combine gravity (G) forces with the well-known force of electromagnetism (EM). Both are infinite in influence, unlike the Strong and the Weak forces, which operate inside the nucleus of atoms. Both G and EM decrease in strength with increasing distance, but gravity falls off with the inverse of the square of the distance (1/r^2), while the force of a long current-carrying conductor falls off more slowly, as the inverse of the distance (1/r).

Gravity affects any particle with mass, whether charged or not, and it operates only as an attractive force to "clump stuff together". The force exerted on a charged particle by an electromagnetic field depends on the charge of the particle - like-charged particles repel while unlike-charges attract. This differential action in electromagnetism can create rotation, and filamentation, and extremely complex, interdependent, varying forces which govern the flows of currents and the morphology of plasma structures at all scales. MHD, as Alfvén warned in his Nobel Lecture, is not generally appropriate to modeling the electromagnetic behaviours found in cosmic plasmas!

Gravity is intrinsically a weaker force than the electromagnetic force: 10^39 times weaker than electromagnetism according to Wikipedia. There are places where gravity can be stronger than the electromagnetic forces acting on a body of particles in space; there are places where gravity and electromagnetic forces may exert approximately equal forces. However, in most of the reaches of space, the electromagnet forces acting upon a charged plasma (or "hot gas", or "winds" or "jets" or "clouds"...) will control the observable effects of the phenomenon being observed. Plasma material on the sun is ejected by the megaton out into the solar corona against the entire Sun's gravity pull, and it continues radially outward, still accelerating with distance, out past Jupiter toward the outer planets. That is not gravity at work!

Respectfully submitted to this discussion.

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:22 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:When I look at this image, It appears to me that the Reddish tentacles are traversing along the back side of the galaxy and that the purple-blue tentacles are wrapping around the front. Could they be caused by interaction between magnetic fields and the dark matter halo?
No. Dark matter doesn't interact with the electromagnetic force. That's what makes it dark. Gravitation is the only fundamental force that appears to interact with dark matter.

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by Ann » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:54 pm

BMAONE23 said:
When I look at this image, It appears to me that the Reddish tentacles are traversing along the back side of the galaxy and that the purple-blue tentacles are wrapping around the front. Could they be caused by interaction between magnetic fields and the dark matter halo?
I'll offer no opinion on the dark matter halo, but the red tentacles are filaments of ionized hydrogen gas, and the blue filaments are long chains of clusters of hot stars. The purplish knots are star forming knots in the densest dust lanes of what remains of the spiral galaxy.

Clearly the red gas filaments and blue chains of star clusters are differently distributed, except at some places, where the red gas seems to be directly associated with the blue star clusters. In other places the red gas seems to be completely disconnected from any star clusters or star formation regions. Personally, I would guess that there may have been a number of supernovae in the central parts of NGC 1275 which may have expelled ionized gas, which then lined up along magnetic lines.

Ann

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by Beyond » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:28 pm

Question - - - - If there is enough "force" to break off "chunks" of magnatism and spew them and filiments out of the black hole -- what keeps the expelled magnatism attached to the filiments instead of just becoming a "magnetic lump"?

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by BMAONE23 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:07 pm

When I look at this image, It appears to me that the Reddish tentacles are traversing along the back side of the galaxy and that the purple-blue tentacles are wrapping around the front. Could they be caused by interaction between magnetic fields and the dark matter halo?

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by dougettinger » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:01 pm

drollere wrote:i recommend the photos posted on a page linked from a page linked in the photo caption ... details of the "tentacles":

http://www-xray.ast.cam.ac.uk/papers/ngc1275/
Thanks for submitting these spectacular images. I am detecting that the magnetic fields may be caused by the very hot plasmas that are associated with the filaments ? Or do you think the magnetic fields are being eratically spilled outward from the huge black hole ? If the black hole is the cause then there are very powerful magnetic fields reaching outward at great distances.

Doug Ettinger
Pittsburgh, PA

Re: APOD: Hubble Remix: Active Galaxy NGC 1275 (2010 Jun 04)

by Beyond » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:48 pm

Good link to lots more information!! However, the first comparison of Hubble to ground based photos does not seem to be comparing the same view.

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