APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:09 pm

desertengineer wrote:I think we've got final evidence from good photo of a debris trail last night. The direction of the debris trail itself is twisted. Areas that move towards you, the observer, will not move. Areas moving perpendicular to you will.

Look at this picture captured within a few days, posted by Spaceweather.com.

http://www.spaceweather.com/meteors/per ... p8u5p2i4l0

The shutter apparently was opened after the meteor passed. Note the trail afterwards is not constant. The area with no trail is either dissipating towards or away from the camera. The areas with the longest trail "ghosting" are moving perpendicular.

So, there's your answer. The meteor is throwing off debris asymmetrically. The trail plasma retains some of the initial velocity vector, and therefore a spiral develops.
I see no evidence of debris thrown of in any particular direction. Meteor trails are straight- they can't be anything but. They do throw off material asymmetrically, but that can only be seen in high speed imagery at high magnification- never in ordinary trail images. What is seen in the Spaceweather image isn't a meteor trail at all, it is a meteor train, the residual dust and ionized gas left behind. It remains for minutes, and is blown around by upper atmosphere winds.

There is nothing in common between the original APOD image. which shows a meteor trail distorted by camera vibration, and the Spaceweather image, which shows a meteor train blown about by the wind.

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Beyond » Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:21 am

Thank you!

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by desertengineer » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:18 am

I think we've got final evidence from good photo of a debris trail last night. The direction of the debris trail itself is twisted. Areas that move towards you, the observer, will not move. Areas moving perpendicular to you will.

Look at this picture captured within a few days, posted by Spaceweather.com.

http://www.spaceweather.com/meteors/per ... p8u5p2i4l0

The shutter apparently was opened after the meteor passed. Note the trail afterwards is not constant. The area with no trail is either dissipating towards or away from the camera. The areas with the longest trail "ghosting" are moving perpendicular.

So, there's your answer. The meteor is throwing off debris asymmetrically. The trail plasma retains some of the initial velocity vector, and therefore a spiral develops.

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by acameron408 » Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:35 am

Can't we just say "wow that looks nice"? Nah I guess it is more fun to debate random things we can't prove. (YET)

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Patrick Hopkins » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:53 pm

There are clearly oval-shaped "streaks" on either side of bright stars (download the full-res image and turn up your monitor brightness if necessary).
The key question is - are these lens aberrations? Or are these camera-shake?
The simple way to answer the question - look at other star pictures with the same camera, lens, & settings.

If the shake is coming from the reflex mirror in the camera, it would also show up in all images - use mirror lockup or hold a cap in front of the lens for the first two seconds of the exposure (for such a wide-ange lens it would have to be more of a bucket than a cap)

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:28 pm

owlice wrote:And yet another twisted meteor trail can be seen here: http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 29&t=19725
All of these images have much in common. They are all made with dynamically unstable instruments: cameras on tripods, telescopes on piers, all are basically inverted pendulums. All have resonances, and those resonances are typically in the area of 10 Hz, which is consistent with the wiggle seen in the meteor trails. And all are long exposures- on the order of a minute or more- which are recording a briefly moving point of light much brighter than the background stars. So the apparent shape of the meteor trails in these images is not at all unexpected. Satellites and airplanes caught in astroimages also tend to show trails that wiggle this way.

This resonance does show up in the star images as well, but it's almost impossible to see. All it does is to slightly alter the shape of the star profiles, from what is approximately Gaussian to a slightly broadened Gaussian with elevated wings. For some of my work, I use a special camera that simultaneously records the positions of many stars over a wide field, with very high accuracy and a rate of 400 measurements per second. This instrument clearly shows the sort of vibration seen in the meteor trail images if I have it mounted on any sort of ordinary tracking telescope mount or simple tripod.

From my allsky camera network, I have recorded about 75,000 meteor trails. These cameras are small, light, and very rigidly mounted. I've never recorded any meteor trail that wiggled.

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by The Code » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:06 pm

:idea: Hmmm, Is it not a Vortex then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex

Mark

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by owlice » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:36 pm

And yet another twisted meteor trail can be seen here: http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 29&t=19725

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Brad » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:32 am

I vote for a meteor doing a barrel roll: "A barrel roll is an aerial maneuver in which an airplane makes a complete rotation on its longitudinal axis while following a helical path, approximately maintaining its original direction." Normally done by a pilot using rudder & stick, but in this case by an odd shape that results in asymetric drag (similar to constant aileron & rudder input) & then gets ablated to a symetrical shape. The trail appeart to be more of a helical path than than a sprial motion or some giggle of the camera. Such a path does not seem unreasonable since all the meteors I saw in the Chicago Field Museam did not have nice symetric shapes.

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by x-ray » Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:02 am

I took some trial images last summer, checking out hardware and software for astro imaging with my Nikon D70 camera. I happened to catch what also appears to be a spiral-trajectory meteor near Vega on one frame. The angular frequency appears relatively constant, but the amplitude varies, increasing or decreasing over the short trail, depending on which direction it was heading. The trajectory is not sinusoidal, but appears to be a projection of a spiral path which is asymmetric. The camera was pointing straight up attached to a Leica tabletop tripod, 6 inches tall altogether. The table I had the camera on might have vibrated, but it would have to have vibrated in X and y at the same frequency to create the image seen, probably unlikely. Two other images from other frames during the same session show airplane trails and they exhibit a stair-step artifact (only X-and Y- steps) caused by the Bayer filter and reconstruction, but no trace of the spiral sort of artifact seen in the meteor trail.

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by owlice » Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:43 pm

Please see this post for another "curvy" meteor trail, this a recent submission for APOD and captured in Edmonton, Alberta.

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Guest » Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:51 am

For me it seems to be the reaction induced by the flipping mirror of an DSLR-camera. At the beginning of the exposure the effect is more pronounced and fadinng away during the long exposure. The camera aparently was mounted on a tripod that was not sturdy enough. As allready noted by others the captured stars at the photograph show eliptical spiral "smearings" of the same amplitude that result from the same motion. May be that some meteors make a snakeing trail due to their irregular shape, for me this one most probably not...

Greetings!

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by deepblue22 » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:55 am

The object was more nearly ellipsoidal and asymmetric having a knob/protrusion at the leading end of the major axis and orthogonal to this axis. Rapid rotation about the long axis with a leading-end protrusion including a wobble similar to a poorly thrown football would generate a spiral trail, as in image the pitch of the spiral is quite constant. Disintegration of leading-end
protrusion results in diminishing spiral due to tendency toward higher symmetry (ellipsoidal to spherical) and decay of wobble. Trail substructure would yield more information. Nonuniform
composition and structure may play their roles.

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by telebelly » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:18 am

What about a meteor that splits and loses a bit of mass that goes one direction and the other goes equal and opposite but does not burn up due its composition?

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Beyond » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:10 am

zink -- 6 pages don't lie. i 2 am surprised that there is so much discussion about so little. must be something in the air. sniff - sniff - sniff----AH-choo :!:

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by zink » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:31 am

The camera was obviously jarred. All the bright nearby stars show an oval "diamond ring" effect. The meteor trail records the pattern of the jarring clearly. An initial (possibly pre-exposure) strong jolt which is damped rapidly and leaves a slight residual wobble. The strong jolt causes the faint limbs of the diamond ring, whereas spending most of the exposure with very little vibration causes the bright "diamond".

I am surprised this was considered an interesting question.

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:02 am

vegaskt wrote:Camera shake seems plausible--it would be interesting to estimate the time duration of the meteor trail then look at the peak to peak distance of the wobble to calculate the frequency. Based on the speed of meteors I've seen, I would think the wobble is at least at an audible frequency. Maybe a gang banger was driving by with his stereo up during the exposure?
A reasonable estimate for the duration of a meteor like this is one second. That makes the frequency of the wobble around 10 Hz, which is right in the area you might expect for vibrations in the camera setup.

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:57 pm

Bob wrote:During the Leonids meteor shower a few years back we looked at the trails of the big ones with our 22" dob and every one was twisting and turning as it disapated.
You were looking at the train, the trail of dust and ionized gas left after bright meteors pass. Trains get blown around by high altitude winds. This image appears to show a meteor trail, the actual illuminated path of the meteor. Meteor trails are almost always straight (by which I actually mean always, but with a tiny element of doubt since I am a scientist <g>).

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Bob » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:15 pm

During the Leonids meteor shower a few years back we looked at the trails of the big ones with our 22" dob and every one was twisting and turning as it disapated.

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by vegaskt » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:45 pm

Camera shake seems plausible--it would be interesting to estimate the time duration of the meteor trail then look at the peak to peak distance of the wobble to calculate the frequency. Based on the speed of meteors I've seen, I would think the wobble is at least at an audible frequency. Maybe a gang banger was driving by with his stereo up during the exposure?

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by rstevenson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:22 pm

Guest wrote:Both meteor trails are twisted....seismic occurance that shook camera?
:facepalm: As has been stated several times already...
There are not two meteor trails. There is just one. The smaller one in the lower-right was copied and enlarged and pasted over the upper-left to make the detail more visible.

Rob

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Guest » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:04 pm

Both meteor trails are twisted....seismic occurance that shook camera?

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Marcopie » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:58 pm

Marcopie wrote:It's compatible with an hurt of the second curtain (?) of the camera shutter
Sorry, the FIRST curtain (?), the one uncovering the sensor...

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Marcopie » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:34 pm

jrendtel@aip.de wrote:If you carefully look at the left end of the trail, it seems that is started before the sinusoidal motion started and the brightness increased.
It's compatible with an hurt of the second curtain (?) of the camera shutter, happened after the uncovering of the sensor and in coincidence with the passing of the meteor.
After the analysis of the impossible physical reality of the track, now I'm completely convinced of this theory.

Re: APOD: A Twisted Meteor Trail Over Tenerife (2010 Jun 02)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:28 pm

adastragrl wrote:They maybe experts on meteoritics but that doesn't necessarily make them experts on astrophotography!
Sometimes true, sometimes not. Many are experts on meteor photography, however. Many are systematically operating meteor cameras and have collected thousands of meteor images. And regardless of how much they know about astroimaging, they are well qualified to assess whether a meteoroid is physically able to move in the way the image suggests. And if the conclusion is "no", that is useful even if they are unable to explain for certain how the meteor image was actually produced.

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