APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by neufer » Thu May 06, 2010 2:48 am

JohnD wrote:
  • Hamlet: Or like a whale.

    Polonius: Very like a whale.
http://www.greywhale.com/blue.htm wrote:
<<The heart of an adult blue whale is about the size of VW Beetle. The carotid artery is about 12" to 18" in diameter, compared to 1/4" for humans. The heart (pulse) rate at rest is 5 to 10 beats per minute.>>

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Keldor » Tue May 04, 2010 12:28 am

Looks like the hand of God to me.

Which is actually not too far from the truth - after all, supernovas are responsible for creating the elements needed to form rocky planets like Earth, and this is a supernova remnant.

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Amir » Mon May 03, 2010 10:43 am

alter-ego wrote:Just thought this might help :)
thanks alter-ego. i'm gonna take a look. ;)

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by moontrail3 » Mon May 03, 2010 7:41 am

edkal wrote:Does anyone else see the figure in the bottom half with flowing robes moving to the right with arms outstretched?
I do. This was my first impression and still is when I look to the image.

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by alter-ego » Mon May 03, 2010 3:37 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
Amir wrote:yes my sentence was wrong. what i meant was that the 7times/sec pulses may not be necessarily because of the rotation around the axis of rotation; they may be the result of another motion like Precession.
could it be?
In principle, I suppose a very newly created pulsar might precess, and if its emission were polar, that could create periodicity. But I think the nature of the forces involved would snub precession very quickly. In any case, I don't think any actual pulsars have been associated with precession.
Amir,
Here is a 2006 conference paper discussing neutron star model(s) and using precession to probe a neutron star's interior. Not hard to read and some interesting stuff. Specifically, there is some data supporting (long period) precession, but is rare.
As far as we can tell from surveys of radio pulsars, precession in isolated neutron stars is a
rare phenomenon. Precession, once excited, would eventually damp through internal friction.
The rareness of precession could mean that it is rarely excited in isolated neutron stars.
http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/31/ ... 31_013.pdf.

Just thought this might help :)

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Chris Peterson » Mon May 03, 2010 1:06 am

Amir wrote:yes my sentence was wrong. what i meant was that the 7times/sec pulses may not be necessarily because of the rotation around the axis of rotation; they may be the result of another motion like Precession.
could it be?
In principle, I suppose a very newly created pulsar might precess, and if its emission were polar, that could create periodicity. But I think the nature of the forces involved would snub precession very quickly. In any case, I don't think any actual pulsars have been associated with precession.

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Chris Peterson » Mon May 03, 2010 12:54 am

tesla wrote:7revolutions per second on a 20klm diameter object gives a surface speed of 220klm/sec or almost 800,000klms /hour. Like I said, you have to have mythical material to keep it from flying apart.
And like I said, describe the physics you are using to arrive at this conclusion.

By my calculation, the centrifugal force on a particle at the surface of the neutron star is 1.9e7 N/kg. The force of gravity is 1.3e10 N/kg. So for this object, spinning at a mere 7 rotations per second, gravity is 684 times stronger than the force that tries to pull it apart. No mythical material required- this neutron star could be made of cotton candy and it would hold together.
It is not established beyond reasonable doubt, it is only a current theory, based on known facts at present. A theory is not scientific fact
You are right, a theory is not a fact. But the theory here is extremely well supported by multiple lines of evidence. It is so well supported that it is treated as a fact: nobody is looking for alternatives. There are many theories that reach this level of certainty.

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by tesla » Mon May 03, 2010 12:27 am

Chris Peterson wrote:
tesla wrote:If the Chandra image spans 100 light years, then the so called pulsar is more than 20klms in diameter. Spinning 7 times a second? Please! Even if it is, at that rotation speed it would fly apart, simple mechanical theory.
Please describe this "simple mechanical theory" you are referring to. You are apparently making some sort of assumption about the material strength of a neutron star that is different from the assumptions of the entire scientific community. Here's a hint about how to approach this question: consider the gravitational force experienced by a particle on the surface, and compare it to the centrifugal force due to rotation.

At seven rotations per second, this pulsar is very much at the slow end of things (in fact, I don't know of a slower rotator than this one). The fastest pulsar rotates 100 times faster. That this class of pulsars is caused by rotating neutron stars is established beyond reasonable doubt.
7revolutions per second on a 20klm diameter object gives a surface speed of 220klm/sec or almost 800,000klms /hour. Like I said, you have to have mythical material to keep it from flying apart.
It is not established beyond reasonable doubt, it is only a current theory, based on known facts at present. A theory is not scientific fact

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Amir » Sun May 02, 2010 6:43 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:All pulsars are rapidly rotating objects, including the one at the center of the Crab nebula. Rotation only powers one class of pulsar, but all pulsars derive their periodicity from rotation.
sure they all rotate, it's one their characteristics.
yes my sentence was wrong. what i meant was that the 7times/sec pulses may not be necessarily because of the rotation around the axis of rotation; they may be the result of another motion like Precession.
could it be?

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Chris Peterson » Sun May 02, 2010 4:12 pm

zbvhs wrote:The text says the pulsar is in the bright central region. Which bright central region? The blue high-energy one at the bottom or the yellow low-energy one at the top?
It is in the center of the blue high energy x-ray region.

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by zbvhs » Sun May 02, 2010 3:53 pm

The text says the pulsar is in the bright central region. Which bright central region? The blue high-energy one at the bottom or the yellow low-energy one at the top?

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Chris Peterson » Sun May 02, 2010 3:03 pm

Amir wrote:but yes, they do not necessarily spin. see this Image Tour about Crab nebula by Hubble Site which also mentions the neutron star inside of it.
All pulsars are rapidly rotating objects, including the one at the center of the Crab nebula. Rotation only powers one class of pulsar, but all pulsars derive their periodicity from rotation.

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Chris Peterson » Sun May 02, 2010 2:57 pm

tesla wrote:If the Chandra image spans 100 light years, then the so called pulsar is more than 20klms in diameter. Spinning 7 times a second? Please! Even if it is, at that rotation speed it would fly apart, simple mechanical theory.
Please describe this "simple mechanical theory" you are referring to. You are apparently making some sort of assumption about the material strength of a neutron star that is different from the assumptions of the entire scientific community. Here's a hint about how to approach this question: consider the gravitational force experienced by a particle on the surface, and compare it to the centrifugal force due to rotation.

At seven rotations per second, this pulsar is very much at the slow end of things (in fact, I don't know of a slower rotator than this one). The fastest pulsar rotates 100 times faster. That this class of pulsars is caused by rotating neutron stars is established beyond reasonable doubt.

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Amir » Sun May 02, 2010 10:34 am

tesla wrote:...That does not necessarily mean spin!
they are extremely dense actually, Wikipedia says 5.5×10^12 kg per one teaspoon of them. this results in a escape velocity of about 100,000 km/s, which may prevent flying apart.
but yes, they do not necessarily spin. see this Image Tour about Crab nebula by Hubble Site which also mentions the neutron star inside of it.

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by tesla » Sun May 02, 2010 9:47 am

If the Chandra image spans 100 light years, then the so called pulsar is more than 20klms in diameter. Spinning 7 times a second? Please! Even if it is, at that rotation speed it would fly apart, simple mechanical theory. That's unless you invent mythical elements that aren't effected by the forces generated. A measurement of the xrays says 7 times a second. That does not necessarily mean spin!

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by thearborist » Sun May 02, 2010 2:18 am

Perhaps that’s the hand of Sauron, missing a finger or two, reaching for a ring of fire......

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Chris Peterson » Sat May 01, 2010 9:15 pm

Glokthathrzyk wrote:On distance: Are you saying that the blast from the supernova reached out 15,300 light years to create the pulsar, or that something somehow propelled faster than light to become the pulsar????? An enquiring mind(?) wants to know :P :)
The pulsar is what's left of the star that went supernova. They are in the same place, about 17,000 light years from us.

There was a massive star 17,000 light years away. 18,700 years ago it went supernova, leaving the pulsar behind. So 1,700 years ago the light from the supernova reached the Earth, and since then we have been able to see the pulsar that was created after the supernova.

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by cmflyer » Sat May 01, 2010 9:09 pm

Glokthathrzyk wrote:On distance: Are you saying that the blast from the supernova reached out 15,300 light years to create the pulsar, or that something somehow propelled faster than light to become the pulsar????? An enquiring mind(?) wants to know :P :)
The light arrived 1700 years ago, but from 17,000 ly away, which means the supernova occurred 18,700 years ago. The pulsar is the star's remnant.

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by emc » Sat May 01, 2010 8:31 pm

matter’s well in hand... matter swells in hand

another fine APOD imagination generation image

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Glokthathrzyk » Sat May 01, 2010 8:09 pm

On distance: Are you saying that the blast from the supernova reached out 15,300 light years to create the pulsar, or that something somehow propelled faster than light to become the pulsar????? An enquiring mind(?) wants to know :P :)

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Guest » Sat May 01, 2010 6:01 pm

This makes me think of the hand of God reaching into hell. Looks amazing.

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Guest » Sat May 01, 2010 5:06 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
Guest wrote:"As far as pulsars go, PSR B1509-58 appears young. Light from the supernova explosion that gave birth to it would have first reached Earth some 1,700 years ago. ...PSR B1509-58 is about 17,000 light-years away in the southern constellation Circinus." So how far away it is 1,700 light years or 17,000 light years?
It is 17,000 light years away. The supernova was visible here on the Earth 1,700 years ago; we are seeing this pulsar 1,700 years after its creation (which might actually be considered to have happened 18,700 years ago).
Thanks. "Light from the supernova explosion that gave birth to it would have first reached Earth some 1,700 years ago" - was a little bit confusing.

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by Astronut » Sat May 01, 2010 4:35 pm

Being with-in the Hand that Be's - How profound!!

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by JohnD » Sat May 01, 2010 4:21 pm

Hamlet: Do you see yonder cloud that's almost in shape of a camel?
Polonius: By th' Mass, and 'tis like a camel, indeed.
Hamlet: Methinks it is like a weasel.
Polonius: It is backed like a weasel.
Hamlet: Or like a whale.
Polonius: Very like a whale.

Gosh, that Shakespeare!

Re: APOD: A Pulsar s Hand (2010 May 01)

by BMAONE23 » Sat May 01, 2010 3:12 pm

It is the hand of the great creator stirring the cosmos in preporation for the big bang

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