APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

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Expand view Topic review: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by dougettinger » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:11 am

Thank you for correcting my understanding of evaporation.

Doug Ettinger

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:15 pm

dougettinger wrote:To use your term - everything in the known universe "evaporates" over tens of billions of years.
"Evaporation" in this sense means that gravitational perturbations occasionally give a member star enough velocity to escape from the cluster. Over time, the cluster loses stars to this evaporation. Eventually the cluster ceases to exist, because none of its original members are gravitationally bound.

Not all objects evaporate in this way. For instance, stars at the end of their lives leave a remnant that is stable for trillions and trillions of years, and possibly forever. This describes many particles, as well.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by dougettinger » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:06 pm

To use your term - everything in the known universe "evaporates" over tens of billions of years. Of course, that assumes there only is and only will be one Big Bang. And that is a big, big assumption.

Doug Ettinger
Pittsburgh, PA

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:57 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:I've never heard of one of these breaking up (though anything is poossible).
They don't break up. They evaporate over tens of billions of years, but that's a very gradual process, and far gentler than anything I'd describe as "breaking up".

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by BMAONE23 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:53 pm

This is all that is stated about the simulation
The simulation
This visualization presents a globular cluster composed of 6,144 stars. The width of the frame represents more than a hundred trillion miles. As the movie unfolds, the evolution of the cluster is shown in this time-lapse movie, in which each second represents thousands of years passing by! As the stars orbit one other, several stars are ejected from the cluster through close gravitational encounters with more massive stars. The stars are shown in a scientific approximation of what the human eye would see: each star's brightness depends both on its intrinsic brightness and on its distance away from the virtual camera, while each star's color is only slightly exaggerated.
though I would imagine that it was intended as a zoom through at the end. I've never heard of one of these breaking up (though anything is poossible).

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by rstevenson » Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:15 pm

Thanks for the clarification Chris. And thanks for the link BMAONE23.

About that video... Near the end of it, are we suddenly zooming in? Or is the cluster suddenly breaking up?

Rob

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by BMAONE23 » Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:44 pm

The simulation
This visualization presents a globular cluster composed of 6,144 stars. The width of the frame represents more than a hundred trillion miles. As the movie unfolds, the evolution of the cluster is shown in this time-lapse movie, in which each second represents thousands of years passing by! As the stars orbit one other, several stars are ejected from the cluster through close gravitational encounters with more massive stars. The stars are shown in a scientific approximation of what the human eye would see: each star's brightness depends both on its intrinsic brightness and on its distance away from the “virtual camera,” while each star's color is only slightly exaggerated

http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/resour ... 03strclust courtest of Hayden Planetariun (it takes a while for the movie file to download in the IE viewer imbed. But accessing via the Download option is faster or download mpg file
And some other interesting Globular Cluster info

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:09 pm

rstevenson wrote:None of the above. They are orbiting their mutual center of mass.
Except in the case of a globular cluster, there really isn't a mutual center of mass. Better to say that each star is orbiting (and these orbits tend to have odd shapes) its own source of gravitational attraction, which is different for each. Certainly the cluster as a whole has a center of mass, and that is an important component in determining the paths of individual stars, but the stellar density is such that local effects are very strong as well.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by rstevenson » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:09 pm

tesla wrote:... Are the stars moving towards the center or moving outwards? If they are moving outwards, it is not gravity. If they are in a static position, it is not gravity. If they are moving inwards I guess it is a mythical black hole!
None of the above. They are orbiting their mutual center of mass.

Rob

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by tesla » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:30 am

If, as suggested, it is gravity and time that has formed Omega Centauri, and gravity alone that forms a normal galaxy, there seems to be two different types of gravity working!
Are the stars moving towards the center or moving outwards? If they are moving outwards, it is not gravity. If they are in a static position, it is not gravity. If they are moving inwards I guess it is a mythical black hole!

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by dougettinger » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:49 pm

Wow! That is for me like putting large pieces of the puzzle together.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:15 pm

dougettinger wrote:Chris, thanks for answering my question and correcting me about Population I and Population II stars. Is it correct to assume then that most subsequent generation stars, young massive short-lived blue stars, and Population I stars with high metal content are mostly made in spiral and barred galaxies and irregular galaxies like the LMC? Older, possibly original stars, are mostly found in elliptical galaxies and the bulges/globular clusters of spiral galaxies.
I think that is generally how most cosmologists see things.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by dougettinger » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:34 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
dougettinger wrote:Then, I presume the stars in galaxial globular star clusters are consistently very old stars with very little higher metals. I believe astronomers call them Population I stars. I would also presume that these stars are all mid-size or smaller stars that would have long lives that compare with the age of the universe less 1 or 2 billion years. Are these presumptions proven by observational data?

Population I stars are high metal content, like the Sun. Globular clusters are made up of low metal, Population II stars, like those found in the galactic halo and bulge. The stars all appear to have formed at the same time, but they don't all have the same mass, so you find a range of luminosities. The stars in globulars are very old, as you suggest. Most seem to be about a billion years younger than the Universe- the same as galaxies. This is all well supported by observation. There are a small number of globulars that have different characteristics, such as split star populations. These aren't well understood, but might be the product of later evolution due to collisions or tidal effects.
Chris, thanks for answering my question and correcting me about Population I and Population II stars. Is it correct to assume then that most subsequent generation stars, young massive short-lived blue stars, and Population I stars with high metal content are mostly made in spiral and barred galaxies and irregular galaxies like the LMC? Older, possibly original stars, are mostly found in elliptical galaxies and the bulges/globular clusters of spiral galaxies.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:23 pm

dougettinger wrote:Are the globular clusters and their stars that are a halo around the Milky Way possibly as old as the age of the universe?
No. The oldest stars in globular clusters apparently formed about a billion years after the Big Bang (based on analysis of H-R diagrams).

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by dougettinger » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:39 pm

dougettinger wrote:Thanks for sharing that information that stars can form in various ways. I have not heard that explanation before but suspected that was the case.

Then, I presume the stars in galaxial globular star clusters are consistently very old stars with very little higher metals. I believe astronomers call them Population I stars. I would also presume that these stars are all mid-size or smaller stars that would have long lives that compare with the age of the universe less 1 or 2 billion years. Are these presumptions proven by observational data?
I realize thae Omega Cen globular cluster is an exception and possible reasons are stated. My above question is concerned about the general trend of data observed in the typical globular clusters. I am very intriqued by the possibilities. Are the globular clusters and their stars that are a halo around the Milky Way possibly as old as the age of the universe? I would really appreciate, if not an educated guess, then an opinion. Thanks.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:31 pm

dougettinger wrote:Then, I presume the stars in galaxial globular star clusters are consistently very old stars with very little higher metals. I believe astronomers call them Population I stars. I would also presume that these stars are all mid-size or smaller stars that would have long lives that compare with the age of the universe less 1 or 2 billion years. Are these presumptions proven by observational data?
Population I stars are high metal content, like the Sun. Globular clusters are made up of low metal, Population II stars, like those found in the galactic halo and bulge. The stars all appear to have formed at the same time, but they don't all have the same mass, so you find a range of luminosities. The stars in globulars are very old, as you suggest. Most seem to be about a billion years younger than the Universe- the same as galaxies. This is all well supported by observation. There are a small number of globulars that have different characteristics, such as split star populations. These aren't well understood, but might be the product of later evolution due to collisions or tidal effects.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by dougettinger » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:51 am

Thanks for sharing that information that stars can form in various ways. I have not heard that explanation before but suspected that was the case.

Then, I presume the stars in galaxial globular star clusters are consistently very old stars with very little higher metals. I believe astronomers call them Population I stars. I would also presume that these stars are all mid-size or smaller stars that would have long lives that compare with the age of the universe less 1 or 2 billion years. Are these presumptions proven by observational data?

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:27 am

dougettinger wrote:How does the nebula hypothesis work for a star field that is 100 stars per ly^3 or even 8 stars per ly^3? Does not the nebula hypothesis require a very high volume interstellar molecular cloud (IMC)?
I don't think the nebular hypothesis is intended to explain the formation of stars in globular clusters. These are some of the first stars that formed- nearly contemporaneous with the formation of galaxies. The environment of the Universe was very different then- presumably just dark matter, hydrogen, and helium, and at much higher densities (and maybe large black holes, as well). This was well before the sort of clouds formed that produced later generation stars within mature galaxies (that is, clouds consisting of complex molecules as well as heavy elements in dust).

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by dougettinger » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:07 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
htom wrote:An average of 0.13 cubic light year per star? Eight stars per cubic light year? Did I make a mistake? What's the density as we approach the center? Presumably they would rotate a common center of mass ... but that wouldn't yield a globe. Are they being attracted to (repelled from!) a center?
Central densities in globulars are very high- 100 stars per cubic light year, or more. While the cluster has a center of mass, it really just forms a sort of "average" locus that the member stars orbit. In practice, "orbit" is a much more complex idea. The stars in a globular cluster are perturbed by other stars (and at the edges, by the parent galaxy). So stellar paths loop and twist. Since most stars are binaries, interactions can result in energy being added or removed from the binary systems, and transferred between different star systems. This results in a sort of mass sorting, where more massive stars tend to settle towards the core. It's a very complex system- one that can only be studied closely using computer models. And even then, the complexity of the system requires making certain assumptions and simplifications.
How does the nebula hypothesis work for a star field that is 100 stars per ly^3 or even 8 stars per ly^3? Does not the nebula hypothesis require a very high volume interstellar molecular cloud (IMC)?

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by jando35 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:10 am

jando35 wrote:It seems eminently possible for someone with appropriate computer software to simulate the impression of the night sky from the centre of a globular cluster. Anyone have access to such?
In case anyone is still following this discussion, great computer simulations of the night sky seen from a star within a globular cluster can be viewed on You Tube ['Sirius Stargazing - Globular Cluster M15'] another stunning video that fills out the Omega Centauri story is also there: 'Black Hole discovered in Globular Clusters'.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:31 am

Amir wrote:
BMAONE23 wrote:Is the Bubble feature in the bottom left corner an artifact of processing or part of a nebula?
anyone knows the answer?
seems to me all of the stars have the same bubble around them, but the one you mentioned is larger because the star has greater brightness.
so maybe we should blame filters, if there were any.
Not filters, I think. Just a processing artifact- bright stars have fairly bright tails (that is, the tails of their roughly Gaussian profile); those tails are as bright as dimmer parts of the image that had their contrast boosted. It's pretty common in images with high dynamic range to see halos like these around bright stars.

(While scatter off something in the optics is a possibility, the fact that the halos match the star colors leads me away from the idea this was introduced by filters- if that was the cause, I'd expect different color components to be scattered differently, resulting in color casts around the stars.)

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by Amir » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:08 am

BMAONE23 wrote:Is the Bubble feature in the bottom left corner an artifact of processing or part of a nebula?
anyone knows the answer?
seems to me all of the stars have the same bubble around them, but the one you mentioned is larger because the star has greater brightness.
so maybe we should blame filters, if there were any.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by neufer » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:26 pm

DonAVP wrote:
workgazer wrote:what would life / the view be like living on a planet in that cluster?
In the writeup regarding this image was a link from the word 'Packed'. The link takes you to an earlier APOD post showing what it might look like.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080906.html
If you go to APOD search and search for Wally you will find a plethora of skyscapes in time exposures where one can probably see 10th or 11th magnitude stars. That is about what you would see with your naked eyes in a globular cluster.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:13 pm

Utah gazer wrote:0.01 cyl per star equates to interstellar distance of about 0.25 light years. But that's only an average. At the short end of that distribution, couldn't we talking about instellar distances of 0.1 ly or less?!? How close can one star be to another?
I don't think there's any limit. Double stars are separated by astronomical units or less. Of course, when you get stars this close together there's little chance of having a stable planetary system, so it's pretty certain that nobody is looking up at those amazing skies from inside clusters.

Re: APOD: Millions of Stars in Omega Centauri (2010 Mar 31)

by Axel » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:10 pm

htom wrote:Planets in such a place may not have anything like an orbit at all.
And therefore no Kepler or Newton, even if the temperature is stable.

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