Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

Post a reply


This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
Smilies
:D :) :ssmile: :( :o :shock: :? 8-) :lol2: :x :P :oops: :cry: :evil: :roll: :wink: :!: :?: :idea: :arrow: :| :mrgreen:
View more smilies

BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[url] is ON
Smilies are ON

Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by neufer » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:03 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:Of course, but what do YOU (and everyone else) generally call these mirrors(; be honest).
If I'm talking about a paraboloidal mirror (which is only some of them), I generally say parabolic. I was only being pedantic about the term because you took me to task for using "spherical", which is actually a reasonable estimate of what we're seeing.
I find it far too fascinating to contemplate that we are actually getting to observe paraboloidal tomographic sections of a nebula to simply dismiss it as being "almost spherical." I hope that someone will make a 3D map of the V838 nebula soon.
Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:It seems a lot faster than 1/r^2 to me.
I don't have an opinion on that. We're seeing a complex interaction between the physical structure of the nebula, an inverse square effect, extinction effects, and a peculiar light curve for the flash and subsequent decay. All in all, not so easy to analyze, I think.

I slightly favor the suggestion that the nebula pre-existed the star, because I think this type of star is probably very young, and in that case the parent nebula is likely to still be present. But the idea that the nebula was cast off by some previous explosion is perfectly reasonable as well.

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by Chris Peterson » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:29 pm

neufer wrote:Of course, but what do YOU (and everyone else) generally call these mirrors(; be honest).
If I'm talking about a paraboloidal mirror (which is only some of them), I generally say parabolic. I was only being pedantic about the term because you took me to task for using "spherical", which is actually a reasonable estimate of what we're seeing.
neufer wrote:It seems a lot faster than 1/r^2 to me.
I don't have an opinion on that. We're seeing a complex interaction between the physical structure of the nebula, an inverse square effect, extinction effects, and a peculiar light curve for the flash and subsequent decay. All in all, not so easy to analyze, I think.

I slightly favor the suggestion that the nebula pre-existed the star, because I think this type of star is probably very young, and in that case the parent nebula is likely to still be present. But the idea that the nebula was cast off by some previous explosion is perfectly reasonable as well.

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by neufer » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:14 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:(Does your observatory have paraboloidal reflector or a parabolic reflector?)
There's really no such thing as a parabolic reflector when talking about telescope mirrors, only paraboloidal reflectors.
Of course, but what do YOU (and everyone else) generally call these mirrors(; be honest).
Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:It seems to be dimming awfully quickly for it to be that "much larger" IMO.
I don't follow your reasoning. I'd expect it to get dim very quickly even in a vast nebula. You've got both 1/r^2 as well as extinction effects.
It seems a lot faster than 1/r^2 to me.

Extinction effects work both before and after the light reflects off of the reflection nebula.

If the nebula is NOT associated directly with V838 AND is MUCH LARGER than currently observed nebula
(as you suggest) then extinction should not have much of an effect on the temporal change in dimming.

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by Chris Peterson » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:15 pm

neufer wrote:(Does your observatory have paraboloidal reflector or a parabolic reflector?)
There's really no such thing as a parabolic reflector when talking about telescope mirrors, only paraboloidal reflectors.
Chris Peterson wrote:It seems to be dimming awfully quickly for it to be that "much larger" IMO.
I don't follow your reasoning. I'd expect it to get dim very quickly even in a vast nebula. You've got both 1/r^2 as well as extinction effects.

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by neufer » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:46 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:At any one time, we're only seeing a small parabolic shell region illuminated by the V838 Mon flash (whose latus rectum diameter is twice the age of the flash).
Actually, I think paraboloidal would be more accurate, since we don't seem to be seeing a shell or 2D surface at all. The surface defines the outer boundary of what we see, but the interior seems to be lit as well (structure from early in the flash remains visible).
Well, circular paraboloidal then.
(Does your observatory have paraboloidal reflector or a parabolic reflector?)
Chris Peterson wrote:
neufer wrote:While the nebula may well be region of gas and dust from which V838 Mon formed it may also be ejecta from a previous outburst.
Either way, it is almost certainly much larger than the region we are able to see illuminated in visible light.
It seems to be dimming awfully quickly for it to be that "much larger" IMO.
(Why no obscuring dark patches? Why no post-2006 pictures?)

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by Chris Peterson » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:12 pm

neufer wrote:At any one time, we're only seeing a small parabolic shell region illuminated by the V838 Mon flash (whose latus rectum diameter is twice the age of the flash).
Actually, I think paraboloidal would be more accurate, since we don't seem to be seeing a shell or 2D surface at all. The surface defines the outer boundary of what we see, but the interior seems to be lit as well (structure from early in the flash remains visible).
While the nebula may well be region of gas and dust from which V838 Mon formed it may also be ejecta from a previous outburst.
Either way, it is almost certainly much larger than the region we are able to see illuminated in visible light.

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by neufer » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:57 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: V838 Mon is the star, not the nebula. It is quite likely that the nebula is not associated with the star at all, but is a very large region of gas and dust from which V838 Mon formed. If so, it is probably hundreds of light years across or larger, and we're only seeing a small spherical region illuminated by the V838 Mon flash.
At any one time, we're only seeing a small parabolic shell region illuminated by the V838 Mon flash (whose latus rectum diameter is twice the age of the flash). While the nebula may well be region of gas and dust from which V838 Mon formed it may also be ejecta from a previous outburst.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V838_Monocerotis wrote:
<<On January 10, 2002, a previously unknown star was seen to brighten up in Monoceros, the Unicorn. Being a new variable star, it was designated V838 Monocerotis, the 838th variable star of Monoceros. The initial light curve resembled that of a nova, an eruption that occurs when enough hydrogen gas has accumulated on the surface of a white dwarf from its close binary companion. V838 Monocerotis reached maximum visual magnitude of 6.75 on February 6, 2002 after which it started to dim rapidly, as expected. However, in early March the star started to brighten again, this time mostly in infrared wavelengths. Yet another brightening in infrared occurred in early April after which the star returned to near its original brightness before the eruption, magnitude 15.6. The lightcurve produced by the eruption is unlike anything previously seen.

The star brightened to about a million times solar luminosity ensuring that at the time of maximum V838 Monocerotis was one of the most luminous stars in the Milky Way galaxy. The brightening was caused by a rapid expansion of the outer layers of the star. The star was observed using the Palomar Testbed Interferometer which provided a radius of 1,570 ± 400 solar radii (comparable to Jupiter's orbital radius), confirming the earlier indirect calculations. The expansion took only a couple of months, meaning that its speed was abnormal. The laws of thermodynamics dictate that expanding gas cools. Therefore the star became extremely cool and deep red. In fact, some astronomers argue that the spectra of the star resembled that of L-type brown dwarfs. If that is the case, V838 Monocerotis would be the first known L-type supergiant.

It is not yet clear if the surrounding nebulosity is associated with the star itself. If that is the case, they may have been produced by the star in earlier eruptions which would rule out several models that are based on single catastrophic events. However, there is strong evidence that the V838 Monocerotis system is very young and still embedded in the nebula from which it formed.

So far several rather different explanations for the eruption of V838 Monocerotis have been published.

1) The outburst of V838 Monocerotis may be a nova eruption after all, albeit a very unusual one. However, this is very unlikely considering that the system includes a B-type star, and stars of this type are young and massive. There has not been enough time for a possible white dwarf to cool and accrete enough material to cause the eruption.

2) V838 Monocerotis may be a post-asymptotic giant branch star, on the verge of its death. The nebulosity illuminated by the light echo may actually be shells of dust surrounding the star, created by the star during previous similar outbursts. The brightening may have been a so-called helium flash, where the core of a dying low-mass star suddenly ignites carbon fusion disrupting, but not destroying, the star. Such an event is known to have occurred in Sakurai's Object. However, several pieces of evidence supports the argument that the dust is interstellar rather than centered around V838 Monoceros. A dying star that has lost its outer envelopes would be appropriately hot, but the evidence points to a young star instead.

3) According to some evidence, V838 Monocerotis may be a very massive supergiant. If that is the case, the outburst may have been a so-called helium flash, a thermonuclear event where a shell in the star containing helium suddenly ignites and starts to fuse carbon. Very massive stars survive multiple such events, however they experience heavy mass loss (about half of the original mass is lost while in the main sequence) before settling as extremely hot Wolf-Rayet stars. This theory may also explain the apparent dust shells around the star. V838 Monoceros is located in the approximate direction of the galactic centre and off from the disk of the Milky Way. Stellar birth is less active in outer galactic regions, and it is not clear how such a massive star can form there. However, there are very young clusters like Ruprecht 44 and the 4 million years old NGC 1893 at a distance of ca. 7 kpc and 6 kpc, respectively.

4) The outburst may have been the result of a so-called mergeburst, the merger of two main sequence stars (or an 8 M☉ main sequence star and a 0.3 M☉ pre-main sequence star). This model is strengthened by the apparent youth of the system and the fact that multiple stellar systems may be unstable. The less massive component may have been in a very eccentric orbit or deflected towards the massive one. Computer simulations have shown the merger model to be plausible. The simulations also show that the inflated envelope would have come almost entirely from the smaller component. In addition, the merger model explains the multiple peaks in the light curve observed during the outburst.

5) Another possibility is that V838 Monocerotis may have swallowed its giant planets. If one of the planets entered into the atmosphere of the star, the stellar atmosphere would have begun slowing down the planet. As the planet penetrated deeper into the atmosphere, friction would become stronger and kinetic energy would be released into the star more rapidly. The star's envelope would then warm up enough to trigger deuterium fusion, which would lead to rapid expansion. The later peaks may then have occurred when two other planets entered into the expanded envelope. The authors of this model calculate that every year about 0.4 planetary capture events occur in Sun-like stars, whereas for massive stars like V838 Monocerotis the rate is ~0.5–2.5 events per year.>>

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by Chris Peterson » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:09 pm

zbvhs wrote:Let me see if I understand this. Light echoes occur as the wave-front from a change in illumination from the central star travels outward from the source and illuminates successive layers of surrounding material.
Right.
Question here is, how big is V838 Mon? If it's 10 ly across, it's going to be 5 years before the new light reaches the outer precincts of the gas shell. V838 appears to be physically changing on a much shorter time scale. The light echo idea doesn't seem to work here.
V838 Mon is the star, not the nebula. It is quite likely that the nebula is not associated with the star at all, but is a very large region of gas and dust from which V838 Mon formed. If so, it is probably hundreds of light years across or larger, and we're only seeing a small spherical region illuminated by the V838 Mon flash. How are you distinguishing physical changes in the nebula structure from apparent changes as the light echo moves? It isn't clear to me that there's any simple way to tell the difference from visual examination of these images.

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by zbvhs » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:16 pm

Let me see if I understand this. Light echoes occur as the wave-front from a change in illumination from the central star travels outward from the source and illuminates successive layers of surrounding material. Question here is, how big is V838 Mon? If it's 10 ly across, it's going to be 5 years before the new light reaches the outer precincts of the gas shell. V838 appears to be physically changing on a much shorter time scale. The light echo idea doesn't seem to work here.

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by bystander » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:56 pm

Image

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by neufer » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:14 am

bytecom wrote:Greetings APOD,
The V838 Monocerotis photo shown on APOD appears to be the same photo shown on the Hubble site <http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archiv ... 0/image/a/>, where it is identified as a Feb.8, 2004 photo. I point this out in hopes of clarifying confusion about the date of the photo shown on APOD. Can you confirm the photo date?
Thanks,
Michael St. Mary
Image

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by bytecom » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:10 am

Greetings APOD,
The V838 Monocerotis photo shown on APOD appears to be the same photo shown on the Hubble site <http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archiv ... 0/image/a/>, where it is identified as a Feb.8, 2004 photo. I point this out in hopes of clarifying confusion about the date of the photo shown on APOD. Can you confirm the photo date?
Thanks,
Michael St. Mary

Re: Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by astrolabe » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:49 am

Hello All,

This was the subject of my very first posting. Amazing how the time flies. My experience as a Forum member has been truly great. Full of info, laughs and culminating in absolutey nothing but awe for what's out there!

Light Echoes from V838 Mon (APOD 2009 November 22 )

by neufer » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:59 pm

Image
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap091122.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap061103.html wrote:
Explanation: Variable star V838 Monocerotis lies near the edge of our Milky Way Galaxy, about 20,000 light-years from the Sun. Still, ever since a sudden outburst was detected in January 2002, this enigmatic star has taken the center of an astronomical stage. This stunning image of swirls of dust surrounding the star was recorded by the Hubble Space Telescope in September [of 2006]. The picture spans about 14 light-years. Astronomers expect the expanding echoes to continue to light up the dusty environs of V838 Mon for at least the rest of the current decade.
Hello..ello..llo..lo..o, out there.

Does anyone have a more recent V838 Mon picture than Sept. 2006?

Have the echoes ended?

Top