The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

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Expand view Topic review: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by Qev » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:36 am

apodman wrote:Oh, I believe y'all. It's just that, despite my efforts, I remain disappointed and unconvinced in the evidential sense. And how many other untested abilities might my brain be missing?
A clever trick I found which allowed me to see these for the first time was to use background reflections. Originally, I was looking at poster-sized ones behind glass, and would focus on the reflections of light-sources that were some distance behind me; this forced my eyes into the correct 'distance focus' for the autostereogram to work. You could probably arrange to have a small, bright light source a ways behind you and look at its reflection in your monitor as you view the stereogram. :)

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:39 pm

neufer wrote:A Holograph is a document written entirely in the handwriting of the person whose signature it bears. The laws of various U.S. states differ as to the validity of Holographic last wills. In the 20th century, the word "Holographic" took on an additional meaning because of the invention of the photographic technique called Holography. However, images produced using this technique are called "holograms", not Holographs.
Well, thank you for informing us about this obscure and legalistic definition for holograph, but there seems to be some suggestion that the term has been used incorrectly somewhere in this discussion. If so, I can't find where that might be. The adjective, holographic, seems to be used quite correctly everywhere.

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by neufer » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:24 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
It's not a Holographic image! It was really a bad choice for the editors to use
this particular image if they wanted a piece on the Holographic principle.
Holograph, n. [L. Holographus entirely autograph, Gr. "olo`grafos; "o`los whole + gra`fein to write: cf. F. Holographe, olographe.] A document, as a letter, deed, or will, wholly in the handwriting of the person from whom it proceeds and whose act it purports to be.
  • ----------------------------------------------------
    The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. 1886.

    II. Search for Mr. Hyde

    THAT evening Mr. Utterson came home to his bachelor house in sombre spirits and sat down to dinner without relish. It was his custom of a Sunday, when this meal was over, to sit close by the fire, a volume of some dry divinity on his reading-desk, until the clock of the neighbouring church rang out the hour of twelve, when he would go soberly and gratefully to bed. On this night, however, as soon as the cloth was taken away, he took up a candle and went into his business-room. There he opened his safe, took from the most private part of it a document endorsed on the envelope as Dr. Jekyll’s Will, and sat down with a clouded brow to study its contents. The will was Holograph , for Mr. Utterson, though he took charge of it now that it was made, had refused to lend the least assistance in the making of it; it provided not only that, in case of the decease of Henry Jekyll, M.D., D.C.L., LL.D., F.R.S., etc., all his possessions were to pass into the hands of his “friend and benefactor Edward Hyde,”
    .............................................................
    VIII. The Last Night

    "That is the same drug that I was always bringing him," said Poole; and even as he spoke, the kettle with a startling noise boiled over. This brought them to the fireside, where the easy-chair was drawn cosily up, and the teathings stood ready to the sitter's elbow, the very sugar in the cup. There were several books on a shelf; one lay beside the tea-things open, and Utterson was amazed to find it a copy of a pious work, for which Jekyll had several times expressed a great esteem, annotated, in his own hand, with startling blasphemies.
    ----------------------------------------------------
A Holograph is a document written entirely in the handwriting of the person whose signature it bears. The laws of various U.S. states differ as to the validity of Holographic last wills. In the 20th century, the word "Holographic" took on an additional meaning because of the invention of the photographic technique called Holography. However, images produced using this technique are called "holograms", not Holographs.

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by Czerno » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:55 pm

[Black Mamba:]"When looking at this holographic image, I can on occasion see three tea pots..."
Are you sure it was only tea you poured into that pot ? :=)

[Star Hopper:] "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostereogram"
I'm still not clear about why the colored dots after reading that I'm afraid. Unless the dots serve an obfuscative function, or are purely decorative ? On the wikipedia page there are several impressive autostereograms in full color, no impressionistic dots.

Anyway... Could that technique be of use for APOD 3D pictures of, say, Martian boulders or the Space Station ?

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:44 pm

black mamba wrote:When looking at this holographic image, I can on occasion see three tea pots....two equally sized ones in the rear and a third, smaller one toward the front that is centered between the ones in the rear. Is this an unusual situation or is it commonly occuring among viewers?
It's not a holographic image! It was really a bad choice for the editors to use this particular image if they wanted a piece on the holographic principle.

And what you're seeing is normal. It just means you've pulled your eyes a little further outwards, and are merging the next interval in the background tiling pattern.

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by black mamba » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:19 pm

When looking at this holographic image, I can on occasion see three tea pots....two equally sized ones in the rear and a third, smaller one toward the front that is centered between the ones in the rear. Is this an unusual situation or is it commonly occuring among viewers?

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by Star*Hopper » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:26 am

Quite welcome - glad I could assist.
Your questions are answered, with this & many other aspects further visuals - tri-plane multi-level & even animations (the chess set is remarkable!)- here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostereogram

~*

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by Czerno » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:42 am

Wow! Thank you, Star Hopper ! At last I've seen that teapot emerge from the background and floating in space !

Where could we find a simple explanation of the principles of such single image 3-D illusions ?
Are the seamingly random colored dots essential ?

Would the technique be applicable to 3-D photographs instead of the binocular stereograms - which I find difficult to visualize - and to what extent ? I guess for monchrome pictures only, if the colored dots are indeed essential, which they must be ?

It's fascinating mystery !

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by zbvhs » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:25 am

Things like this come under the heading of Planetary Phenomena. We are Planetary Phenomena so the sky's the limit.

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by Star*Hopper » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:52 pm

They come so easily to me, I really wonder about those who say they can't see 'em!

If you can cross your eyes, then you have the 'talent' - just have to learn to 'uncross' them past point of focus. And all that takes is, looking at something farther away!

It's sort of like learning to use averted vision thru your scope's eyepiece. It's one thing to look off-center, but it's another to focus your mind on a point away from where your eyes are pointed directly.

Look at the pattern in your screen. Then, without moving your eyes away, consciously force your point of focus to something behind your screen, as if you're looking right thru the screen. The pattern should go out of focus slightly, & you'll know you're on the 'right track'. Slowly, imagine it - the thing you're imagine you're seeing behind the screen - is farther, and farther, and farther away. Just keep increasing the distance & the 'object' in the pattern should suddenly pop into your consciousness.

It takes a bit of getting used to, learning how to 'hold' on that defocused point while your brain 'looks around' examining the objects....but once you learn to see them, it'll be so easy that....well, see my first sentence.

HTH!
~*

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by rstevenson » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:52 pm

When I first read it I thought the reference to a teapot was just another in joke. But today, with the ongoing discussion, I decided to try it. POP! Out popped a teapot. :shock:

Oddly it won't work if I'm not wearing my reading glasses. Must be some sort of virtual focal length thing.

Rob

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by DavidLeodis » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:14 pm

apodman wrote:Oh, I believe y'all. It's just that, despite my efforts, I remain disappointed and unconvinced in the evidential sense. And how many other untested abilities might my brain be missing?
Hi apodman. Though I have no problem seeing the 3D effect in such images as the APOD I can never succeed in doing the cross-eyed way to see stereoscopic images and so, where possible, I have to rely on red/blue glasses. They always work well for me but I know from older APODs discussions that some prefer the cross-eyed method as they find it easy.

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by apodman » Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:33 pm

Oh, I believe y'all. It's just that, despite my efforts, I remain disappointed and unconvinced in the evidential sense. And how many other untested abilities might my brain be missing?

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by Doum » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:55 pm

Well, i am the first surprise but the teapot is realy there. :shock: Amazing.

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by DavidLeodis » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:36 pm

apodman wrote:The A stands for autostereogram. I'm cool with connecting the holographic principle to astronomy via black holes, but using a hologram to represent the holographic principle is one stretch and using an autostereogram to represent the hologram is another stretch. Alas, stretch is all you can do since there is no way on a monitor to illustrate the appearance of an actual black hole or the appearance of an actual hologram. I am one of those autostereographically challenged folk, so (contrary to published assumptions) I see no teapot (nor anything else other than a 2D abstract pattern) and remain unconvinced there is one. I remain unconvinced that autostereograms are anything other than a hoax designed to waste my time defocusing while the jokers point and giggle.
I can assure you apodman that it is no false claim. There really is a teapot in the image. It is a shame you don't see it, as the 3D effect in this and other autosterograms is amazing.

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by DavidLeodis » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:31 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
DavidLeodis wrote:When such 3D hidden images became very popular at least 15 or more years back I never had any problem seeing what was in them but I knew several people that never could. Shame really as the effect when seen is remarkable, as in the APOD with a teapot that looks to be floating. I hope dduggan47 that you do make out the hidden image in this and other similar holographic images.
I suspect you know this, but to be clear, there is no connection between this image (which is based on random dot stereography) and holography. This isn't a "holographic image".
Just to make it clear, yes I knew that Chris. I simply used holographic image as that is what these types of 'images' are often called in general use and as they usually were when they began to appear many years back.

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by apodman » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:36 pm

The A stands for autostereogram. I'm cool with connecting the holographic principle to astronomy via black holes, but using a hologram to represent the holographic principle is one stretch and using an autostereogram to represent the hologram is another stretch. Alas, stretch is all you can do since there is no way on a monitor to illustrate the appearance of an actual black hole or the appearance of an actual hologram. I am one of those autostereographically challenged folk, so (contrary to published assumptions) I see no teapot (nor anything else other than a 2D abstract pattern) and remain unconvinced there is one. I remain unconvinced that autostereograms are anything other than a hoax designed to waste my time defocusing while the jokers point and giggle.

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by Chris Peterson » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:09 pm

DavidLeodis wrote:When such 3D hidden images became very popular at least 15 or more years back I never had any problem seeing what was in them but I knew several people that never could. Shame really as the effect when seen is remarkable, as in the APOD with a teapot that looks to be floating. I hope dduggan47 that you do make out the hidden image in this and other similar holographic images.
I suspect you know this, but to be clear, there is no connection between this image (which is based on random dot stereography) and holography. This isn't a "holographic image".

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by DavidLeodis » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:49 pm

dduggan47 wrote:The heck with the physics. Just once in my life ... someday ... I'd like to see the image in one of these pictures. Never ever have I been able to see them.

What's wrong with me? :-)
When such 3D hidden images became very popular at least 15 or more years back I never had any problem seeing what was in them but I knew several people that never could. Shame really as the effect when seen is remarkable, as in the APOD with a teapot that looks to be floating. I hope dduggan47 that you do make out the hidden image in this and other similar holographic images.

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by cubewano » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:57 am

"According to the Holographic Principle, the most information you can get from this image is about 3 x 10^65 bits for a normal sized computer monitor."

But what if the image is presented so that each pixel is a hyperlink?

Or is that cheating?

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by grump » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:32 am

dduggan47 wrote:The heck with the physics. Just once in my life ... someday ... I'd like to see the image in one of these pictures. ...
I look for a couple of contrasting areas about eye spacing apart. In the APOD pic there are some darker patches across the middle - line up your eyes on the dark matter with your face about, oh, 30 to 50cm from the image, then defocus ie dont 'look' at anything in particular, then slowly move your face closer close to the image. Maybe, just maybe, the 3D will slowly resolve as your brain sorts it out. It does not suddenly pop into 3D for me - just slowly builds over a few seconds.

Notice how I've cunningly introduced a couple of astronomy terms into the post.

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by Tilt » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:32 am

This might help: I recalled after about a minute that it helps to put your nose almost directly on the image and stare straight ahead.

Yes, there's Some repetition, but what the heck. I like to go back to the early early APODs. I did a programming internship at the Climate & Radiation Branch at GSFC the Summer of '95 when it was all brand new. When I found the APOD... man, it was better than sliced bread, < G >. It amazes me to see the Calendar page now ---- so many glorious images over the years.

Way ta go, Guys.

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by dduggan47 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:25 am

Star*Hopper wrote:All well & good, I suppose....but somebody help me out here. What does the 'A' in 'APOD' stand for, again?

~*
"It can arise from generalizations from seemingly distant speculation that the information held by a black hole is determined not by its enclosed volume but by the surface area of its event horizon."

OTOH, I'd be more inclined to ask whether we're really running out of APODs:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020430.html

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by dduggan47 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:17 am

The heck with the physics. Just once in my life ... someday ... I'd like to see the image in one of these pictures. Never ever have I been able to see them.

What's wrong with me? :-)

Re: The Holographic Principle (APOD 2009 September 13)

by Tilt » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:18 pm

One lump or two?

Cosmo Kramer Flashbacks, jeeez....

"I sense a great vulnerability, a man-child crying out for love, an innocent orphan in the post-modern world."
"I see a parasite, a sexually depraved miscreant who is seeking only to gratify his basest and most immediate urges."
"His struggle is Man's struggle. He lifts my spirit!"
"He is a loathesome brute, yet I can't look away."
"He transcends Time and Space!"
"He sickens me."
"I love it!"
"Me too!"

Well....... We all know how that turned out.

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