6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

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Expand view Topic review: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by bystander » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:47 pm

neufer wrote:
http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_jul2003/Squaw_Sons.htm wrote:The value of the squaw of the hippopotamus
is equal to the sons of the squaws of the other two hides.
[sic]

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by neufer » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:35 pm

orin stepanek wrote:My neighbor lady was Hilda. She was tiny; but her sons were big.
They could probably keep the Trojans and the Greeks at bay. :lol:
http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_jul2003/Squaw_Sons.htm wrote:
An Indian chief had three wives, each of whom was pregnant.

The first gave birth to a boy.
The chief was so elated he built her a teepee made of deer hide.

A few days later, the second gave birth, also to a boy.
The chief was very happy. He built her a teepee made of antelope hide.

The third wife gave birth a few days later, but the chief kept the details a secret.
He built this one a two-story teepee, made out of hippopotamus hide.

The chief then challenged members of the tribe to guess what had occurred.
Many tried, unsuccessfully.

Finally, one young brave declared that the third wife had given birth to twin boys.

“Correct,” said the chief. “How did you figure it out?”

The warrior answered, “It's elementary.
The value of the squaw of the hippopotamus
is equal to the sons of the squaws of the other two hides.”

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by orin stepanek » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:04 pm

My neighbor lady was Hilda. She was tiny; but her sons were big. They could probably keep the Trojans and the Greeks at bay. :lol:

Orin

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by bystander » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:25 pm

neufer wrote:A "destructive interaction with the Greeks and the Trojans!" What a great idea for an epic novel!
Or an epic poem, though why anybody would want to read a novel length poem is beyond me, or write one for that matter.

Still, with all the Hildas flirting with all the Greeks and Trojans, it seems it would go bad at least once, and once one went bad ...

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by neufer » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:23 pm

bystander wrote:
neufer wrote:Ah, but is Hilda worth it?
IMHO, no. She's a little too full figured for my tastes. Reminds me of my mother, and contrary to the song, I don't want a girl like dad married. Besides, she seems to be playing both the Trojans and the Greeks off against Jupiter.
Still, neither Hilda nor the Trojan or Greeks camps have enough mass in themselves to gravitationally affect the others (or themselves).
[I'm sure the same applies to your mom. :wink: ]
bystander wrote:
On a more serious note, what strange dynamics. Seems like there would be destructive interaction with the Greeks and the Trojans, as well as with the outer part of the main asteroid belt.
A "destructive interaction with the Greeks and the Trojans!" What a great idea for an epic novel!

Stabilizing 3:2 & 2:3 triangular resonances allow for a careful choreographed dance around the point of closest orbital contact with the nearest large perturber. This is the basis of Plutinos.

A 3:2 triangular resonance can also stabilize a shepherding satellite like Pandora which, in turn, forms a sharp outer edge to a ring system that contains destabilizing 2:1 and 3:1 resonance ring gaps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimas_(moon) wrote:
<<Mimas is responsible for clearing the material from the Cassini Division, the gap between Saturn's two widest rings, A ring and B ring. Particles at the inner edge of the Cassini division are in a 2:1 resonance with Mimas. They orbit twice for each orbit of Mimas. The repeated pulls by Mimas on the Cassini division particles, always in the same direction in space, force them into new orbits outside the gap. Other resonances with Mimas are also responsible for other features in Saturn's rings: the boundary between the C and B ring is at the 3:1 resonance and the outer F ring shepherd, Pandora, is at the 3:2 resonance. More recently, a 7:6 corotation eccentricity resonance has been discovered with the G ring, whose inner edge is about 15 000 km inside the orbit of Mimas.>>

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by bystander » Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:08 am

neufer wrote:Ah, but is Hilda worth it?
IMHO, no. She's a little too full figured for my tastes. Reminds me of my mother, and contrary to the song, I don't want a girl like dad married. Besides, she seems to be playing both the Trojans and the Greeks off against Jupiter. Of course, Jupiter is a god.
On a more serious note, what strange dynamics. Seems like there would be destructive interaction with the Greeks and the Trojans, as well as with the outer part of the main astroid belt. Are the numbers of Greeks, Trojans, and Hildas changing?

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by neufer » Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:43 am

bystander wrote:
orin stepanek wrote:Don't look like Jupiter cleared it's orbit; what with the Trojans and the Greeks still out there. :twisted: Aww; just making a case for Pluto! :lol: 8)
Just as long as they stay on their own sides. Don't want them to start fighting again. Helen isn't worth it.
Ah, but is Hilda worth it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildas wrote:
<<The Hilda family of asteroids consists of asteroids with a semi-major axis between 3.7 AU and 4.2 AU,
an eccentricity greater than 0.07, and an inclination less than 20°.

They do not form a true asteroid family, in the sense that they do not descend from a common parent object. Instead, this is a dynamical family of bodies, made up of asteroids which are in a 2:3 orbital resonance with Jupiter. Hildas move in their elliptical orbits so that their aphelia put them opposite Jupiter, or 60 degrees ahead of or behind Jupiter at the L4 and L5 Lagrangian points. Over three successive orbits each Hilda asteroid passes through all of these three points in sequence. The namesake is 153 Hilda, discovered by Johann Palisa in 1875.
  • ------------------------------------------------------------
    A schematic of the orbit of 153 Hilda (green), with Jupiter (red)
    Image
    ------------------------------------------------------------
The asteroids of the Hilda group (Hildas) are in 3:2 mean motion resonance with Jupiter. That is, their orbital periods are 2/3 that of Jupiter. They move along the orbits with a semimajor axis near 4.0 AU and moderate values of eccentricity (up to 0.3) and inclination (up to 20°). Unlike the Trojan asteroids they may have any difference in longitude with Jupiter, nevertheless avoiding dangerous approaches to the planet.

The Hildas taken together constitute a dynamic triangular figure with slightly convex sides and trimmed apexes in the triangular libration points of Jupiter - the "Hildas Triangle". The "asteroidal stream" within the sides of the triangle is about 1 AU wide, and in the apexes this value is 20-40 % greater.

Each of the Hilda objects moves along its own elliptic orbit. However, at any moment the Hildas together constitute this triangular configuration, and all the orbits together form a quite predictable ring. Figure 2 illustrates this with the Hildas positions (black) against a background of their orbits (gray).
Image
Left: The Hildas Triangle against a background of all known asteroids up to Jupiter's orbit.
Right: The positions of the Hildas against a background of their orbits.


For the majority of these asteroids their position in orbit may be arbitrary except for the external parts of the apexes (the objects near aphelion) and the middles of the sides (the objects near perihelion). The Hildas Triangle has proven to be dynamically stable for a long time span.

The typical Hilda object has a retrograde perihelion motion. On average the velocity of perihelion motion is greater as the orbital eccentricity is lesser, while the nodes move more slowly. All typical objects in aphelion would seemingly approach closely to Jupiter, which should be disstabilising for them. But the adjustment of orbital elements over time helps to avoid this, and conjunctions with Jupiter occur only near the perihelion of Hilda asteroids. Moreover the apsidal line oscillates near the line of conjunction with different amplitude and a period of 2.5 to 3.0 centuries.

In addition to the fact that the Hildas triangle revolves in connection to Jupiter the quasi-periodical waves of the stream density of asteroids in every point are noticed, as if the triangle "breathes". At any time the density of objects in the triangle's apexes is more than twice the density within the sides. The Hildas rest at their aphelia in the apexes for an average of 5.0-5.5 years whereas they move along the sides more quickly for 2.5 to 3.0 years. The orbital periods of these asteroids are approximately 7.9 years, or 2/3 that of Jupiter.>>

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by bystander » Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:09 am

orin stepanek wrote:Don't look like Jupiter cleared it's orbit; what with the Trojans and the Greeks still out there. :twisted: Aww; just making a case for Pluto! :lol: 8)
Just as long as they stay on their own sides. Don't want them to start fighting again. Helen isn't worth it.

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by orin stepanek » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:59 am

Don't look like Jupiter cleared it's orbit; what with the Trojans and the Greeks still out there. :twisted: Aww; just making a case for Pluto! :lol: 8)

Orin

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by neufer » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:03 pm

zbvhs wrote:If you think about it, the Sun has a ring as well (the Asteroids).
Two major rings: The Kuiper belt & The Main asteroid belt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Kuiper belt, set against the four Gas giants
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Main asteroid belt, set against the four rocky terrestrials:


Image

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by Chris Peterson » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:28 pm

zbvhs wrote:If you think about it, the Sun has a ring as well (the Asteroids). Curious how the four inner planets are so very different from the four outer gas giants and the Asteroids are in between. How do you suppose that happened?
There has been a lot of research in the area of how planetary systems form, with huge progress made in the last few years as computer power has increased and computer models have improved (this is something that pretty much requires simulation techniques to study). While much remains to be understood, what it probably boils down to is that during the formation of a stellar system, there is a gradient of conditions (temperature, density, type of material, etc) extending outwards from the central star or protostar. Details aside, it seems very reasonable that if you have a range of conditions like this, you're likely to see a range of different planet types condense.

Once you have some planets- especially a gas giant or two- the gravitational interactions between them create resonances and zones of stability and instability. This results in a rapid clearing of material from much of the intervening space, and the possible creation of rubble zones like the asteroid belt (which does share some similarity to planetary ring systems, but is also different in important ways).

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by zbvhs » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:12 pm

If you think about it, the Sun has a ring as well (the Asteroids). Curious how the four inner planets are so very different from the four outer gas giants and the Asteroids are in between. How do you suppose that happened?

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by DavidLeodis » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:37 am

DavidLeodis wrote:I was curious how the top image showed no rings but thankfully the explanation had a link to an animation in the information to which it stated "The final frame has been assembled from earlier 2009 observations to display how the planet will appear on September 4th, 2009 when the rings will appear edge on". It would otherwise have been a very speedily produced APOD to have shown the September 4th view. :)
Ooops I've just noticed that bystander has already mentioned about the top image. :oops:

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by DavidLeodis » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:30 am

I was curious how the top image showed no rings but thankfully the explanation had a link to an animation in the information to which it stated "The final frame has been assembled from earlier 2009 observations to display how the planet will appear on September 4th, 2009 when the rings will appear edge on". It would otherwise have been a very speedily produced APOD to have shown the September 4th view. :)

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by neufer » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:18 am

anabaptiston wrote:Thanks, neufer, for the wikipedia entry, but it's irrelevant. I asked if the dots were moons, and if so, could they be identified. I didn't ask how many moons Saturn had, or whether Rhea might have rings of its own. So the question still stands. (To sort of answer my own question, presumably the dots would have to be Titan or maybe Rhea is they're actually moons.)
That would be my guess. The wikipedia entry is relevant; it's just not definitive.

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by anabaptiston » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:13 am

Thanks, neufer, for the wikipedia entry, but it's irrelevant. I asked if the dots were moons, and if so, could they be identified. I didn't ask how many moons Saturn had, or whether Rhea might have rings of its own. So the question still stands. (To sort of answer my own question, presumably the dots would have to be Titan or maybe Rhea is they're actually moons.)

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by alanfgag » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:01 am

bystander wrote:
Isaiah 45:18 wrote:A couple of observations on the images: First, the title of the page is "6 Years of Saturn" with a reference in the caption that they represent 2004-2009, from lower right to upper left. But there are seven images. If the images were taken one year apart, wouldn't the first (lower right) image be 2003? Secondly, the third image up from the right (either '05 or '06 depending on the answer to my first question) is different from the images on either side of it, as it shows no planet shadow cast across the rings behind the planet. If these are all earthbound telescopic photos, it seems the shadow should be there. If not, why not?
Where does it say the images were taken 1 year apart? Unfortunately, the apod link from this composite of Saturn views does not provide us with actual image dates. However, this animation link on that page tells us that the upper left picture (Saturn at equinox) is a fabrication.

As for the shadows of Saturn against the rings, I can't say. Maybe they were photshopped out in that picture. The relationship of the shadows would depend on the angles between the Sun, Saturn, and the Earth. If Saturn was in opposition or cunjunction with the Earth, perhaps there wouldn't be a visble shadow (it would be behind Saturn).

Here is a similar sequence from Hubble Heritage for 1996-2000. None of those pictures show much of a shadow from Saturn.
The Hubble montage is created from images captured at opposition, when the shadows are minimized and the rings brightened by the Seeliger Effect. One of my images, the third from the bottom, is recorded at opposition also and shows these same phenomena - the others are recorded at different times in each apparition from 2004 - 2009. The exception is the upper left image which is constructed from earlier 2009 pictures and then adapted in Photoshop to give an impression of how saturn might look today if photographed at the same resolution of the other images. Titan was added also (this moon did have a very fine transit along with its shadow late on Sept. 3rd). Unfortunately it is not possible to take good images from earth or from HST today due to the closeness of the sun to saturn.

You might enjoy this animation http://www.avertedimagination.com/img_p ... _2006.html recorded from several shots during a single apparition of saturn. It shows the subtle changes in the shadows and ring tilt over the course of several months of observation.

Thanks very much for the comments on my APOD!

clear skies and best wishes,
Alan Friedman

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by neufer » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:49 am

http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00002084/ wrote:
Happy Saturn ring plane crossing day! By Emily Lakdawalla | Sep. 4, 2009

<<During the Saturn ring plane crossing of 1995, astronomers discovered that Prometheus, one of the two tiny moons that shepherd Saturn's F ring, was a full thirty minutes behind where it was predicted to be, twenty degrees off from its expected orbital position. That's the sort of puzzling observation that really gets astronomers thinking. Eventually they figured out that Prometheus is in a chaotic dance with Pandora, the other shepherd of the F ring; the two moons perturb each other's orbits, slowing each other down and speeding each other up.

Ring plane crossings are also excellent times for Earth-based astronomers to study Saturn's fainter rings. In fact, it was during the crossing of 1966 that astronomers discovered the E ring. The E ring has very little in common with the dazzlingly bright A and B rings that are visible in your backyard telescope. The E ring is incredibly faint, but it's also vertically thick, extending thousands of kilometers above and below the ring plane. And it stretches from the edge of the rest of the ring system for hundreds of thousands of kilometers, including the orbits of the moons Mimas, Enceladus, Tethys, Dione, and Rhea. Astronomers found that the E ring was brightest at the orbital position of Enceladus, giving the first clue that tiny Enceladus might be geologically active. We now know that Enceladus has geysers that spew tiny ice crystals into Saturn orbit, and is responsible for creating the vast E ring.

Astronomers have used ring plane crossings to try to determine just how thick the rings are. But it was surprisingly difficult to settle on that number for Saturn. Most estimates came in at about a kilometer thick. Recently, the Cassini orbiter has measured the thickness of Saturn's main A and B rings and found they are much thinner than that, only a few tens of meters thick. Why don't Earth-based astronomers get the same answer? The problem is the F ring, the thin, braided structure that orbits just outside the main A and B rings. It's ordinarily faint and difficult to spot from Earth. But near an equinox, when the Sun strikes the rings from the side, the sparse, dusty particles within the F ring scatter light in all directions, with a goodly fraction of that light bouncing back to observers on Earth. When astronomers tried to measure the thickness of Saturn's rings, they were really measuring the thickness of the F ring.

Some ring plane crossing events are better than others. Sometimes, Earth crosses the ring plane just once, but sometimes there are actually three ring plane crossings in a row, spaced about three months apart. When Earth crosses the ring plane only once, Saturn is usually on the opposite side of the Sun from us and very difficult to observe. But triple crossings happen near opposition, when Saturn is very high in our sky and easy to see.

Ring plane crossings give us a chance to see something that's almost never visible from Earth: the dark side of the rings. Earth is usually on the sunlit side of the rings, since Earth is always within 6 degrees of the Sun as seen from Saturn. This year, when the equinox happened on August eleven, the Sun went to the other side of the rings, so from Earth we were looking upon their unlit face. Today, we pass to the sunlit side again, where we'll be for the next sixteen years. But we can't really enjoy the view very much because this year is one of the duds, a single crossing where Saturn is lost in the Sun's glare.

1995 was a different story. Earth crossed the ring plane in May and spent the next three months on the shadowed side of Saturn's rings. The dense A and B rings were particularly dark, making it much easier to study the smaller moons and the faint C, D, E, and F rings. In August Earth passed back through the plane to the sunlit side. But then Saturn's equinox happened in November, bringing darkness to the rings again for another three months, until Earth passed through the ring plane for the third and final time.

Ring plane crossing events are rare because they depend upon the stately pace of the giant planets' orbits around the Sun, and happen only twice each orbit.

Jupiter's are the most frequent because it has the shortest year, only twelve Earth years long;
the most recent [Jupiter] ring plane crossing was just two months ago.

Saturn ring plane crossings happen every fourteen to seventeen Earth years, but the next good triple crossing isn't until 2038.

Uranus ring plane crossings happen only every forty-two years; the last one was two years ago, when Hubble observations showed that the ring system looked radically different from its appearance to Voyager 2 back in 1986.

Finally, there's distant Neptune, which takes a 165 Earth years to travel around the Sun. The last time we had a chance to observe a Neptune ring plane crossing from Earth, it was 1964, and the charged-coupled device that forms the basis of most modern digital cameras hadn't yet been invented. Our next chance is still another forty years away.>>

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by neufer » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:29 am

orin stepanek wrote:What effect would there be to pass through through Saturn's ring planes except visual?
It's recommended that you aim for one of the gaps (...the bigger the better).
http://cassini-huygens.jpl.nasa.gov/ope ... rrival.cfm

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by orin stepanek » Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:10 am

Saturn is so peaceful to look at; yet it and it's moons are so intriguing. 8) What effect would there be to pass through through Saturn's ring planes except visual? I find Saturn very beautiful; only Earth is more so.

Orin

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by rigelan » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:08 am

This summer I saw so many things with my binoculars, Neptune, Uranus, Jupiter's Moons, Andromeda Galaxy, that I looked at Saturn for its rings. I had tried and tried and failed, No wonder they weren't visible to my binoculars. Head on! Looks like i'll have to wait a year or so for better images of the rings.

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by neufer » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:08 pm

Storm_norm wrote:this is one of those APOD images that reemphasizes the reality of the passage of time. And at the same time demonstrates just how great a name saturn really is. in my mind, it demonstrates the continual march of time that doesn't skip a beat, that saturn is just going about its journey and will eventually tilt enough so that we can see its beauty once again. like a flower that blooms in the spring then lays dormant til the next spring.
  • The flowers that bloom in the spring, Tra la,
    Have nothing to do with the case.
    I've got to take under my ring, Tra la,
    A most unattractive old thing, Tra la,
    With a caricature of a face,
    With a caricature of a face.

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by Storm_norm » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:48 pm

this is one of those APOD images that reemphasizes the reality of the passage of time. And at the same time demonstrates just how great a name saturn really is. in my mind, it demonstrates the continual march of time that doesn't skip a beat, that saturn is just going about its journey and will eventually tilt enough so that we can see its beauty once again. like a flower that blooms in the spring then lays dormant til the next spring.
Its either a happy moment or a sad moment for astronomers being at a point in time where we are "plane on" with the rings of saturn. The astronomers who want to see the full beauty of the rings will have to wait 7-8 years, but at the same time, the more seasoned astronomers might have been waiting for a "plane on" view since 15 years ago.
this also brings back memories of discussions from school about how often comets come around, especially the orbit of Haley's comet and how its a once in a lifetime even for most people and maybe a twice in a lifetime event for those who live long enough.

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by neufer » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:50 pm

It should be pointed out that Jupiter's axial tilt is a mere 3.13° so the Earth is always fairly close to Jupiter's ring plane.

And the Earth passed through Uranus ring-plane three times on May 2, 2007, Aug. 16, 2007, and Feb. 20, 2008.
Much was learned about Uranus's rings from Keck Telescope observations during this time.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap041118.html wrote:
Explanation: Uranus is now slowly approaching its southern autumnal equinox
- the beginning of fall in the southern hemisphere - in 2007.

Re: 6 Years of Saturn (2009 September 4)

by Chris Peterson » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:13 pm

Storm_norm wrote:ok, how about a more general question instead of the specific once in a billion case...
is there a span of time, lets say within an average person's life, ballpark figure 75 years, where the earth passes through each planetary ring plane?
for example, lets say a 10 year old wanted to pick a 75 year span in our solar system's history or future to witness the earth pass through each planetary ring's plane. would such a span in earth's existence exist?
Well, if we simplify things and pretend the Earth isn't orbiting (which in this case is a fair enough approximation), each ringed planet's ring plane passes through the Earth twice on each orbit. So, that's about every 6 years for Jupiter, every 15 years for Saturn, every 42 years for Uranus, and every 82 years for Neptune.

If you imagined these planets as the hands of a clock, then it's easy enough to determine how often they'll all line up (it is a similar problem to predicting conjunctions). The fly in the ointment, however, is that over millions of years almost nothing is deterministic. The planetary inclinations change, and in a not entirely predictable way. The position of each planet's perihelion precesses. All of the planets perturb each other. Trying to figure out how this impacts the probability of an alignment (I know, that was your first question) seems very difficult.

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