The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

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Expand view Topic review: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

Up the Airy mountain

by neufer » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:38 pm

apodman wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk wrote:The diffraction pattern resulting from a uniformly-illuminated circular aperture has a bright region in the center, known as the Airy disk which together with the series of concentric bright rings around is called the Airy pattern. Both are named after George Biddell Airy, who first described the phenomenon. The diameter of this pattern is related to the wavelength of the illuminating light and the size of the circular aperture.
  • Up the airy mountain
    Down the rushy glen
    We daren't go a-hunting
    For fear of little men
    - William Allingham 1824–1889
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1006.htm" wrote:
THE NEPTUNE AFFAIR by John H. Lienhard
.
<<The convoluted story of Neptune begins in 1841
when John Adams, a brilliant Cambridge student, took
an interest in the irregular movement of Uranus. Maybe
the irregularity was caused by another, yet undiscovered, planet.

In 1843, Adams went to the Cambridge astronomy professor,
James Challis, with a computational scheme. Challis got the
data Adams needed from the royal astronomer, George Airy.
Adams went to work. Two years later, he knew where to aim
a telescope to find the mystery planet. He asked Challis
to look for it. Challis didn't want to take on the job.
He sent Adams to Airy.

Airy read Adams's work and sent back a note with a minor
question. The question struck Adams as too simple. He figured
the great Airy was writing rhetorically. He didn't bother
to answer. Airy thought the young man was snubbing him.
He wrote an angry letter to Challis, and he wouldn't
even to speak to Adams.

Months later, a young French astronomer, LeVerrier, made the
same calculation Adams had. He also went to Airy. Airy heard
him out, then went to Challis and said, "Let's look for the
planet." Challis finally began looking. But so did German
astronomers. On September 23, 1846, the Berlin Observatory
found the planet we call Neptune. It lay very near
the spot both young men had predicted.

Airy wrote congratulations to LeVerrier. The French Academy
cheered a French triumph and tried to name the planet after
LeVerrier instead of naming it after yet another Roman god.
Then the great English astronomer, John Herschel, announced
that Adams had actually done the calculation first.

The French were furious at Herschel. The English Royal Society
was equally furious at Airy and Challis for dropping the
ball. They subjected them to a public humiliation from
which neither ever fully recovered.

. And what of Adams and LeVerrier?

Well, those two level-headed young men became close friends.
After all, they'd discovered Neptune, hadn't they? This
nationalistic stuff wasn't their fight. But then, a few years
later, a Harvard astronomer showed that their calculations had
been incomplete. They'd both been lucky to find anything at all.

Maybe the crowning irony was the discovery, in 1980, of notes
that Galileo had made in 1612 and 1613. He'd clearly identified
Neptune, but he hadn't realized it was moving in relation
to the stars behind it. He thought it was another star.>>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.u-net.com/ph/lassell/adams-airy.htm wrote:
Adams, Airy and the Discovery of Neptune in 1846 by Allan Chapman

<<Popular interpretations of this incident place a great deal
of responsibility upon Airy, for not having taken the initiative
to secure a British discovery. Yet this is unjust, and
several key factors must be born in mind:

1. It was not the job of the Astronomer Royal to undertake searches.

2. As an extremely over-worked man, Airy cannot be blamed for being
unavailable when Adams chanced to call upon him without first
having made an appointment. He was abroad on the first occasion,
and at dinner with his family on the second.

3. After Adams left his figures for Neptune's place, when the Airy
family were at dinner on October 21st, 1845, Airy was prompt in writing
to Adams in Cambridge, requesting crucial pieces of mathematical
information about the basis of his computations. Adams never
replied to Airy's letter, nor supplied the requested information.

4. Why was Adams not admitted when Airy was at dinner? We should bear
in mind that at the time Mrs. Richarda Airy was within a week of giving
birth to their ninth child. Her previous pregnancies had been difficult,
and as Airy was deeply attached to his wife, he saw no reason to have
their dinner interrupted by a stranger who wished to see him on a
business matter. There is no evidence to suggest that Adams was willing
to wait until the meal was over in spite of the fact that the Airy
family dined not in the evening, but in the late afternoon.

5. Airy's voluminous surviving correspondence makes it clear that
everyone - from Cabinet Ministers and Admirals, down to servant-girls
wanting to have their fortunes told - wrote to, and occasionally
called-in upon the Astronomer Royal. A man who was so much in the public
eye had to defend his privacy.

6. While all of this was going on, the Royal Observatory was being
rocked by the disclosure of an awful incident. A senior Greenwich
Observatory Assistant, William Richardson, had just been exposed for
having committed an appalling murder. From late October 1846, onwards,
Airy and his Chief Assistant, the Revd Robert Main, made appearances
before the courts at the beginning of Richardson's trial. Airy was
acutely embarrassed by the regular appearance of his name, as
Richardson's employer, in the newspaper columns reporting
the details of a crime which hinged upon sex, incest,
and the burial of a body in a shallow grave.

7. And if this was not enough, the year 1845-1856 was probably the
busiest in Airy's professional life. For in addition to astronomy,
he was immersed in the business of the Railway Gauge Commission.
As the Scientific Commissioner, he was travelling around Britain
testing trains & interviewing engineers. It was this Commission, and
Airy's scientific advice, which settled British (and, later American)
railway gauges at the "Standard Gauge" of 4 feet 8 1/2 inches.
..........................................................
John Couch Adams, while a brilliant mathematician, was rather naive
socially, and was said by a senior Cambridge colleague to have behaved,
regarding Neptune, not "like a man who made a great discovery, but like
a bashful boy." In 1846, however, the "bashful boy" was 27 years old.

Urbain Le Verrier, the French co-discovery of Neptune was an older, and
much more business-like individual, and had the determination to see his
computations put to effect. Yet even he was not able to find a French
Observatory that was willing to undertake the search, and was forced
to write to colleagues in Berlin. We often forget that the French
scientific establishment let Le Verrier down no less than the British
was accused of having let down Adams. Once the Berlin sighting
had been made, however, the French were quick to turn it
into a French National discovery.>>
-------------------------------------------------------

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by apodman » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:18 pm

DavidLeodis wrote:many ... do like Wally Pacholka's ... imagery, but I do not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk wrote:In optics, the Airy disk (or Airy disc) and Airy pattern are descriptions of the best focused spot of light that a perfect lens with a circular aperture can make, limited by the diffraction of light.

The diffraction pattern resulting from a uniformly-illuminated circular aperture has a bright region in the center, known as the Airy disk which together with the series of concentric bright rings around is called the Airy pattern. Both are named after George Biddell Airy, who first described the phenomenon. The diameter of this pattern is related to the wavelength of the illuminating light and the size of the circular aperture.

The most important application of this concept is in cameras and telescopes. Due to diffraction, the smallest point to which one can focus a beam of light using a lens is the size of the Airy disk. Even if one were able to make a perfect lens, there is still a limit to the resolution of an image created by this lens. An optical system in which the resolution is no longer limited by imperfections in the lenses but only by diffraction is said to be diffraction limited.
My idea of a desirable astronomical image is what I see through a telescope in focus. The Airy disk of each star is as close to a sharp point of light as you can get, and the faint surrounding diffraction circles serve only as frames for each point's crispness.

But the crisp point of a star can't be adequately represented in a digital image where a point of light must be at least as large as a pixel nor in a film image where a point of light must be at least as large as a grain in the emulsion. Bright points are represented not only as brighter but also as larger. This gets worse in guided time exposures where more pixels or more grains are covered by the light of each point, and it gets worse yet in poorly guided or unguided time exposures where points become streaks. In movies, the stars in the sky are made unnaturally huge so they can be seen at all. Then we have Wally's style that puts a real blur on everything (at least in the reduced resolution views we get to see here) to present the picture almost with the wide brush of an impressionist. It's all too far for me from what I see in a focused telescope. A printed poster of a star cluster is a joke compared with the amazing view in even a small telescope on a clear dark night.

This is not to say that astrophotos are not both beautiful and useful. There is simply no other way to see dim or distant objects. But I have yet to see a dark sky photograph that actually looks like the sky. Then again, today's APOD viewed at full size ain't so bad.

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by DavidLeodis » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:37 am

I do not like the image at all. It looks too fake, though I know it probably is not. For one thing the buttes look too much like cardboard cutouts. I appreciate that many (probably most) do like Wally Pacholka's style of astronomy imagery, but I do not.

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by Indigo_Sunrise » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:25 pm

I had seen this particular image on the TWAN site, and had hoped that APOD wouldn't see it/use it. But only because, IMESHO Mr. Pacholka's images are not (to quote a phrase others have used), aesthetically pleasing. To me. I understand this image wasn't created for me, and that's fine, but his unreal portrayal along with the manipulation in this image is just too much. I've not been a fan of his works and I definitely don't/won't 'digg' this one. :lol:

Anyway, that is just my personal opinion.......

Carry on! :mrgreen:

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by apodman » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:14 pm

Gee, even with my little automatic digital camera I get "unreal" lighting effects on my first couple of tries with a new and different subject or new and different lighting conditions. For an indoor or close-up example, just the exposure difference from the spread of the flash at different distances makes a noticeable difference in effect. I have to experiment with the white balance and exposure compensation, try a couple of different preset scene modes, or try different zooms from different distances before I get a "real" appearance in my picture. It is not beyond my imagination that someone with a more versatile camera in manual mode and a graphical image manipulation program - especially someone with Wally's prior experience lighting foreground rocks and cliffs as shown in his other photos - can make real scenery look freaky simply by splashing the right amount of light around during the proper length exposure. And taking a couple of test shots with illumination by flashlight is easier than cutting all that cardboard and propping it up anyway.

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by ike1518 » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:55 pm

Man, I just can't accept that picture of the Badlands and I grew up there. Where are the strata layers in the eroded rock? Considering the area illuminated it would have taken hours to accomplish such a lighting project. Plus the lighting is so even - one would think that illumination by flashlight of large areas would be more spotty. I don't know the photographer and no disparagement is implied, but it just doesn't feel right.

Ike1518

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by neufer » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:30 pm

orin stepanek wrote:
Redbone wrote:I believe that this particular photograph goes beyond simple illumination and long exposure times. As described, it is a mosiac of four pictures. It also appears that some technique like air-brushing has been applied to blend, soften and contrast the landscape rendering it two dimensional.
I don't think it looks 2-D; as each butte seems to be at a different depth. True; each butte seems a bit flat having a 2-D image of their own; but the overall picture seems to pop a bit. :wink:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop-up_book wrote:
<<The audience for early movable books were adults, not children. It is believed that the first use of movable mechanics appeared in a manuscript for an astrological book in 1306. The Catalan mystic and poet Ramon Llull, of Majorca, used a revolving disc or volvelle to illustrate his theories.

Throughout the centuries volvelles have been used for such diverse purposes as teaching anatomy, making astronomical predictions, creating secret code, and telling fortunes. Astronomicum Caesareum, by Petrus Apianus, which was made for the Holy Roman Emperor Charles in 1540, is full of nested circular pieces revolving on grommets. By 1564 another movable astrological book titled Cosmographia Petri Apiani had been published.

While it can be documented that books with movable parts had been used for centuries, they were almost always used in scholarly works. It was not until the eighteenth century that these techniques were applied to books designed for entertainment, particularly for children.

Some pop-up books receive attention as literary works for the degree of artistry or sophistication which they entail. One example is STAR WARS: A Pop-Up Guide to the Galaxy, by Matthew Reinhart. This book received literary attention for its elaborate pop-ups, and the skill of its imagery, with the New York Times saying that "calling this sophisticated piece of engineering a 'pop-up book' is like calling the Great Wall of China a partition".>>

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by orin stepanek » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:58 pm

Redbone wrote:I believe that this particular photograph goes beyond simple illumination and long exposure times. As described, it is a mosiac of four pictures. It also appears that some technique like air-brushing has been applied to blend, soften and contrast the landscape rendering it two dimensional.
I don't think it looks 2-D; as each butte seems to be at a different depth. True; each butte seems a bit flat having a 2-D image of their own; but the overall picture seems to pop a bit. :wink:

Orin

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by Redbone » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:50 pm

I believe that this particular photograph goes beyond simple illumination and long exposure times. As described, it is a mosiac of four pictures. It also appears that some technique like air-brushing has been applied to blend, soften and contrast the landscape rendering it two dimensional.

Re: 8-18-09 APOD

by Chris Peterson » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:46 pm

orin stepanek wrote:I like his work! I find it quite artistic. He has his own style. To me he is a photographer artist. :)
Like them or dislike them, the point is that his works are fundamentally intended to be aesthetic. They don't represent anything you can see with the eye, and the astronomical parts (the sky) don't generally resemble Milky Way images as they are usually presented, where an attempt is made to boost signal, but otherwise maintain the approximate appearance of the sky to the human eye.

This is artistic expression, not technical or scientific realism. There's nothing wrong with that, but discussion of his work based on the latter isn't likely to be very meaningful.

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by geckzilla » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:43 pm

Some of the fake appearance might also be caused by the blurry parts where stitching was involved. Just a guess. I don't think this particular image is a very effective example of his technique. Aesthetically speaking, anyway. One thing I really disagree with is the sampling up which has been done to the photo for display on the APOD page. If you click the image you get the original size which is a lot more crisp but much smaller. Wally sells his images and has a good reason not to supply high resolution downloads or people could simply have them printed locally. It's unfortunate that we can't see it at that size without the resampling but it is also unfortunate that the image's quality was degraded for the sake of displaying it as the APOD.

Re: 8-18-09 APOD

by orin stepanek » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:26 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Well, I don't know what you mean by "should". If the flashlight were located differently, the effect would be different. But none of Wally's pictures come close to showing anything that I'd describe as "real"; they are his aesthetic interpretations. So what you would do and what he would do are likely different.
I like his work! I find it quite artistic. He has his own style. To me he is a photographer artist. :)

Orin

Re: 8-18-09 APOD

by Chris Peterson » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:10 pm

neufer wrote:The flashlight source somewhat in front of camera is no doubt the cause of the fake overall appearance. There are virtually no shadows to give any definition to the flattened Wall (while flashlight shadows do give definition to the nearby grass). The flashlight should have been used well off to the side.
Well, I don't know what you mean by "should". If the flashlight were located differently, the effect would be different. But none of Wally's pictures come close to showing anything that I'd describe as "real"; they are his aesthetic interpretations. So what you would do and what he would do are likely different.

Re: 8-18-09 APOD

by neufer » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:05 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
tlc wrote:This looks fake. The power of any light it would take to actually illuminate the Badlands Wall and cast sharp shadows like that is beyond anything I know of. The foreground is weeds/grass etc and casts shadows on the cutouts behind.
An ordinary flashlight is probably enough; a hand held searchlight certainly so. Compared with the brightness of the Milky Way, these are very bright. Make a long enough exposure to capture the sky and it will be long enough to show the artificially illuminated hills. You actually need a very dark location to avoid having the foreground lit by scattered light pollution, which would have made this peculiar lighting effect impossible.
The flashlight source somewhat in front of camera is no doubt the cause of the fake overall appearance. There are virtually no shadows to give any definition to the flattened Wall (while flashlight shadows do give definition to the nearby grass). The flashlight should have been used well off to the side.

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by neufer » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:55 pm

bystander wrote:
Nancy D wrote:I thought the horse didn't exist in North America until the Spanish brought them over. Why would there be fossils of ancestors of the horse in the badlands?
Primitive horses show up in the Americas several times, including close relatives of the modern domestic horse. However, all species became extinct in the Americas 11,000 years ago until their reintroduction in the 15th and 16th centuries CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_ ... ern_horses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_horse wrote:
<<Horses were absent from the Americas until the Spanish Conquistadors brought domestic horses from Europe, beginning in 1493, and escaped horses quickly established large wild herds. The early naturalist Buffon suggested in the 1760s that this was an indication of inferiority of fauna in the New World, then later reconsidered this idea. William Clark's 1807 expedition to Big Bone Lick found "leg and foot bones of the Horses" which were included with other fossils sent to Thomas Jefferson and evaluated by the anatomist Caspar Wistar, but neither commented on the significance of this find.

During the Beagle survey expedition the young naturalist Charles Darwin had remarkable success with fossil hunting in Patagonia. On 10 October 1833 at Santa Fe, Argentina, he was "filled with astonishment" when he found a horse's tooth in the same stratum as fossil giant armadillos, and wondered if it might have been washed down from a later layer, but concluded that this was "not very probable". After the expedition returned in 1836 the anatomist Richard Owen confirmed that the tooth was from an extinct species which he subsequently named Equus curvidens, and remarked that "This evidence of the former existence of a genus, which, as regards South America, had become extinct, and has a second time been introduced into that Continent, is not one of the least interesting fruits of Mr. Darwin's palæontological discoveries."

In 1848 a study On the fossil horses of America by Joseph Leidy systematically examined Pleistocene horse fossils from various collections including that of the Academy of Natural Sciences and concluded that at least two ancient horse species had existed in North America: Equus curvidens and another which he named Equus americanus. A decade later, however, he found that the latter name had already been taken and renamed it Equus complicatus.

The original sequence of species believed to have evolved into the horse was based on fossils discovered in North America in the 1870s by paleontologist Othniel Charles Marsh. The sequence, from Hyracotherium (popularly called Eohippus) to the modern horse (Equus), was popularized by Thomas Huxley and became one of the most widely-known examples of a clear evolutionary progression. The horse's evolutionary lineage became a common feature of biology textbooks, and the sequence of transitional fossils was assembled by the American Museum of Natural History into an exhibit which emphasized the gradual, "straight-line" evolution of the horse.

Since then, as the number of equid fossils has increased, the actual evolutionary progression from Hyracotherium to Equus has been discovered to be much more complex and multi-branched than was initially supposed. The straight, direct progression from the former to the latter has been replaced by a more elaborate model with numerous branches in different directions, of which the modern horse is only one of many. It was first recognized by George Gaylord Simpson in 1951 that the modern horse was not the "goal" of the entire lineage of equids, it is simply the only genus of the many horse lineages that has happened to survive.>>

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by bystander » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:17 pm

Nancy D wrote:I thought the horse didn't exist in North America until the Spanish brought them over. Why would there be fossils of ancestors of the horse in the badlands?
Primitive horses show up in the Americas several times, including close relatives of the modern domestic horse. However, all species became extinct in the Americas 11,000 years ago until their reintroduction in the 15th and 16th centuries CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_ ... ern_horses

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by apodman » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:08 pm

Joe Stieber wrote:if I travel ... to the southern NJ Pinelands, the summer Milky Way billows on a clear night
My problem was sticking too close to the well lit beach resorts (there's nothing like an amusement pier for light pollution, caramel corn vapor lofted by sea spray for haze, and a salty crust on my spectacles for total blindness). That and the fear that if I went into the Pine Barrens the Jersey Devil would get me.

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by Joe Stieber » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:54 pm

The Badlands Wall does indeed look like a cardboard cutout. All we need is a model railroad in the foreground. :D

On a more factual note, the text says the picture was taken "looking southwest." Since Jupiter and Capricornus are not long after rising, they are roughly in the southeast; therefore, the center of the picture is actually closer to south-southeast.

As far as seeing the Milky Way goes, I live in the New Jersey suburbs of Philadelphia and have never seen it from my home. However, if I travel about 35 miles (less than an hour) to the southern NJ Pinelands, the summer Milky Way billows on a clear night. That was the case this past weekend when the marvelous band of starlight from Cassiopeia through the Summer Triangle down to Sagittarius was prominent. I was even able to spot Uranus naked eye before the moon rose - all from New Jersey!

Re: 8-18-09 APOD

by bystander » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:49 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:You actually need a very dark location to avoid having the foreground lit by scattered light pollution, which would have made this peculiar lighting effect impossible.
The Badlands at night is very dark, the Milky Way is easy to see. The Park Rangers have an astronomy lecture and show for campers on clear nights.

Re: 8-18-09 APOD

by Chris Peterson » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:39 pm

tlc wrote:This looks fake. The power of any light it would take to actually illuminate the Badlands Wall and cast sharp shadows like that is beyond anything I know of. The foreground is weeds/grass etc and casts shadows on the cutouts behind.
An ordinary flashlight is probably enough; a hand held searchlight certainly so. Compared with the brightness of the Milky Way, these are very bright. Make a long enough exposure to capture the sky and it will be long enough to show the artificially illuminated hills. You actually need a very dark location to avoid having the foreground lit by scattered light pollution, which would have made this peculiar lighting effect impossible.

Re: 8-18-09 APOD

by bystander » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:24 pm

tlc wrote:This looks fake. ... The Milky Way looks like it was taken from an earlier APOD shot that was wonderful.
Commercial, but not fake. Most of Mr. Pacholka's pictures include the Milky Way.
See TWAN Galleries: Wally Pacholka or Astropics.

8-18-09 APOD

by tlc » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:53 pm

This looks fake. The power of any light it would take to actually illuminate the Badlands Wall and cast sharp shadows like that is beyond anything I know of. The foreground is weeds/grass etc and casts shadows on the cutouts behind. The Milky Way looks like it was taken from an earlier APOD shot that was wonderful.

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by Nancy D » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:50 pm

I grew up in a small town in the Texas panhandle. I used to sit on my front porch and look at the Milky Way. Boy do I miss that!

I thought the horse didn't exist in North America until the Spanish brought them over. Why would there be fossils of ancestors of the horse in the badlands?

Re: The Invisible Milky Way

by geckzilla » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:03 pm

I'm the opposite. I went from living in a place where it was easy to spot the Milky Way to living in a place where I might see Jupiter and Venus if I'm lucky. "Milky" is a very appropriate term for it, by the way. It looks nothing like the Badlands photo to the naked eye other than the shape. You need to get away from civilization! Not on the ocean, though. It could be overcast every single night if you try there.

Re: The Milky Way Over The Badlands (2009 Aug 18)

by apodman » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:39 am

Andy Wade wrote:Crikey! Beaten to it! Twice!
At least it shows we're not making this stuff up (unless there's a heck of a conspiracy).

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