Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

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Expand view Topic review: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by neufer » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:41 pm

Jyrki wrote:Some folks were worried about a supernova blinding us as a consequence of a near point-like like source capable of 'turning night into a day' must have awfully high luminosity. Does that wash?
Well, the brightest & closest known supernova was Vela 12,000 years ago which was supposedly as bright as a full moon.

Betelgeuse is twice as close as Vela so it might be as bright as 4 full moons
which would certainly make for a bright night but not a particularly bright day.

And a supernova would be a twinkling near point-like like source
with it's dangerous UV-C radiation absorbed out by our ozone layer.

Richard Feynman was able to watch the Trinity A-bomb blast with his naked eye
by using just the windshield of a Jeep for UV-C radiation protection
and his natural "blink reflex" to visible light for the rest.

Now there might be a few folks willing to simply stare at such a supernova
for extended periods...but they should read about Joseph Plateau
-------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety wrote:
<<The coherence, the low divergence angle of laser light and the focusing mechanism of the eye means that laser light can be concentrated into an extremely small spot on the retina. A transient increase of only 10 °C can destroy retinal photoreceptors. Sufficiently powerful visible to near infrared laser radiation (400-1400 nm) will penetrate the eyeball and may cause heating of the retina, whereas exposure to laser radiation with wavelengths less than 400 nm and greater than 1400 nm are largely absorbed by the cornea and lens, leading to the development of cataracts or burn injuries. Infrared lasers are particularly hazardous, since the body's protective "blink reflex" response is triggered only by visible light.>>

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by Jyrki » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:50 pm

Jyrki wrote: Googling for more information confirmed my recollection that in these parts it is spelled Betelgeuze. If I find an explanation for the variations in spelling I will return to this theme.
In case somebody is interested;
A web dictionary that I managed to find suggests that it is spelled with an 's' e.g. in English and French, and with a 'z' in e.g. Latin and Finnish :-). German uses 'Beteigeuze' but for this an explanation as mistranslitteration some time in the history has been offered. Go figure? Wikipedia lists both, but in the English edition Betelgeuze is automatically redirected to Betelgeuse.

The discussion about its pending explosion has been going on for a couple years now (I missed it earlier, because I was double-employed in 06-08 and had scant time for anything else). Some folks were worried about a supernova blinding us as a consequence of a near point-like like source capable of 'turning night into a day' must have awfully high luminosity. Does that wash? Won't the argument raised by the physicist hero in Hoyle's "Inferno" refute this: The human eye is unable to distinguish between a point source and a disc larger than Betelgeuse [the threat was the center of the Milky Way in that story]... (a lecture on elementary wave optics ensued).

Anyway, Betegeuse has an interesting history.

My first encounter with Betelgeuze was as a 6-year old when I was given a set of "astronomy cards for children" (a publisher's reaction to the Apollo program, I presume). There Betelgeuze was described as a giant star, and they tried to make the kids grasp its size by explaining how long it would take to drive around it with a car. The card actually had a picture of a car driving on a stellar "surface" with the numerical data printed next to it. That car would be driving on thin air rather than glowing yellow/orangish plasma :-)

Cheers,

Jyrki

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by Jyrki » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:47 am

Hey Art!

If this astronomy thing doesn't pay the bills you can embark on an alternative career writing lyrics :-)

Wouldn't it really be something to see it pop in our time! Then the fourth millenium astronomy books would show images of the remaining nebula not unlike the crab nebula, and insert witty remarks about how the explosion is dated according to ancient scriptures, rumours, legends, artists' impressions,...

Is somebody monitoring it continuosly? Would such a commitmen of resources ever be justified? Will it give known warning signs? (some of the links discuss its shrinking cycle?) What are the chances that an amateur astronomer will be the first to spot it? Actually that is a silly question, because it would be impossible to decide "who was the first". A better question might be to guesstimate how soon the news would make major optical telescopes turn into that direction. I can imagine a cranky old guy whining about Beetlejuice ruining his carefully designed series of observations :-)

Googling for more information confirmed my recollection that in these parts it is spelled Betelgeuze. If I find an explanation for the variations in spelling I will return to this theme.

Cheers,

Jyrki

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by neufer » Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:43 pm

orin stepanek wrote:http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1984ApJ...284..223L
After finding this link; I presume that the ejecta must be oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon.
I don't know what else it might be. :?
  • The solar weather outside is frightful,
    The nuclear fire is so delightful,
    And since we've no place to go,
    Let It CNO! Let It CNO! Let It CNO!

    The fire is slowly dying,
    And, my dear, we're still good-bying,
    But so long as you don't yet blow,
    Let It CNO! Let It CNO! Let It CNO!
[the witch doctor sprinkles some [CNO] on Betelgeuse's head; it starts shrinking]

Betelgeuse: [voice getting higher as head gets smaller] Whoa, hey! What are you doing?
Hey, stop it! Hey, you're messing up my hair! C'mon! Whoa! Whoa! Stop it! *Whoa!*...
Hey, this might be a good look for me.
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2p7in ... senora_fun

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by orin stepanek » Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:06 pm

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1984ApJ...284..223L After finding this link; I presume that the ejecta must be oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon. I don't know what else it might be. :?

Orin

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by neufer » Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:38 pm

orin stepanek wrote: http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090805.html

Betelgeuse evaporating! I was just wondering what the gas is that is being given off?
Looks like this star is going a different route than Eta Carinae.
Image

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by AZJames » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:27 am

Thanks Chris. Guess I read the commentary a little too quickly. :oops:

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by orin stepanek » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:59 pm

mark swain wrote:This clip does not represent actual time does it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl-oR7hTTYY

How long does this clips time represent?

Mark
I haven't the foggiest about the time; but I imagine it will be spectacular! 8) I'd like to see it; but I'll bet it'll be long past my time. Then again; could be tomorrow.

Orin

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by The Code » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:25 pm

This clip does not represent actual time does it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl-oR7hTTYY

How long does this clips time represent?

Mark

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by orin stepanek » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:08 am

When Betelgeuse goes it will brighten the night sky for quite a while! I found a small viedo that may be interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl-oR7hTTYY

Orin

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:47 am

AZJames wrote:I'm a little confused by a couple things. The APOD commentary says that Betelgeuse, a red giant, may go supernova in the next few thousand years. But my limited understanding of red giants is that when the star 'blows' it produces a planetary nebula and the core of the star collapses to a white dwarf.
Betelgeuse isn't a red giant, nor does the commentary say this. It is a red supergiant, which lies on an entirely different branch of stellar evolution than red giants. Red supergiants normally end up going supernova (Type II).
Also, at a distance of just 640 light years, I can imagine that when Betelgeuse goes nova we may have a 'new star' rivaling in brightness the full moon. Any chance that radiation from the event may pose a threat to Earth?
A supernova further than 100 ly from Earth is unlikely to pose any threat.

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by AZJames » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:33 am

I'm a little confused by a couple things. The APOD commentary says that Betelgeuse, a red giant, may go supernova in the next few thousand years. But my limited understanding of red giants is that when the star 'blows' it produces a planetary nebula and the core of the star collapses to a white dwarf. The same sort of fate is forecasted for our sun - swelling to a red giant, thence to a planetary nebula and a white dwarf. This scenario is substantially more benign than a supernova where the final outcome is either a neutron star or a black hole. Perhaps Betelgeuse is a special case?

Also, at a distance of just 640 light years, I can imagine that when Betelgeuse goes nova we may have a 'new star' rivaling in brightness the full moon. Any chance that radiation from the event may pose a threat to Earth?

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by apodman » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:31 pm

cwmdavis wrote:... it strikes me as too large, even for a very large telescope.
I had to do the calculations to believe it myself. I was raised in a world where stars were just points of light even with maximum telescopic resolution. But it's true. The angular resolution of the ESO VLT is 2 ten-thousandths of an arc second (250 times as fine as the HST) in certain wavelengths, and the angular size of Betelgeuse is a few hundredths of an arc second. The resolution and size of the image in the photo are well within specs. Very impressive.

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by The Code » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:57 pm

orin stepanek wrote:The above quote shows how close it is from here. I found that interesting also. When you look at the Orion constellation; it's hard to imagine that some of it's stars are a lot farther than others.
Optical illusion ....

Related link here... :

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bmlI ... an&f=false

You may find the rest of that link interesting as well..

enjoy

Mark

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by orin stepanek » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:27 pm


Zeta Orionis appears to be nestled in the Horsehead Nebula, a region of intense starbirth. Actually, Zeta Orionis is only 135 light-years from Earth, while the nebula is 1,600 light-years distant.
I read your link Mark. 8) I did find it interesting; still, seems it doesn't help to add years to Alnitak's life. According to the article it's life span isn't long enough for life as we know it to evolve on a planet that may be orbiting it. The above quote shows how close it is from here. I found that interesting also. When you look at the Orion constellation; it's hard to imagine that some of it's stars are a lot farther than others. BTW Another link has it at a greater distance.http://www.daviddarling.info/encycloped ... nitak.html

Orin

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:33 pm

orin stepanek wrote:BTW are most giants similar in that the outer layers are like this?
Not sure, but I assume so. You can get some sense of things by realizing that the mass range of stars is about 0.1 solar masses to 150 solar masses, so 1500 to 1. The diameter range (for stars still undergoing fusion) is around 0.15 solar diameters to about 650 solar diameters, which corresponds to a volume range of about 1e10 to 1. Clearly there is a huge density range.

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by The Code » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:20 pm

orin stepanek wrote:I figured the core was denser but was really surprised that the outer layer was so rarefied. BTW are most giants similar in that the outer layers are like this?
You may find this interesting, orin


http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 01018.html

Mark

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by orin stepanek » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:46 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
orin stepanek wrote:I find it very interesting that the stars density is less than air! How can that be? It's just a giant poof ball.
But don't confuse "average" with "maximum". You can be sure that it has a nice dense core, just like any star needs to sustain fusion. It just has a very large, thin gas shell around it. Some models for our own sun suggest that when it becomes a red giant, it will be cool enough and large enough to allow the inner planets to continue on their orbits, within the star. It seems likely the outside will be low enough density; the main question is whether it will be cool enough that rocky bodies can survive without dissociation.
Thanks Chris: I figured the core was denser but was really surprised that the outer layer was so rarefied. BTW are most giants similar in that the outer layers are like this?

Orin

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:21 pm

orin stepanek wrote:I find it very interesting that the stars density is less than air! How can that be? It's just a giant poof ball.
But don't confuse "average" with "maximum". You can be sure that it has a nice dense core, just like any star needs to sustain fusion. It just has a very large, thin gas shell around it. Some models for our own sun suggest that when it becomes a red giant, it will be cool enough and large enough to allow the inner planets to continue on their orbits, within the star. It seems likely the outside will be low enough density; the main question is whether it will be cool enough that rocky bodies can survive without dissociation.

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by bystander » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:08 pm

orin stepanek wrote:I find it very interesting that the stars density is less than air! How can that be? It's just a giant poof ball :wink:
Wikipedia: Red Supergiants wrote:These massively large stars are little more than "hot vacuums", having no distinct photosphere and simply "tailing off" into interstellar space.

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by orin stepanek » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:36 pm

Quote: (Betelgeuse is surrounded by shells of dust and gas that it has already blown off through a very strong stellar wind. There is a partial ring of dust lying out at around three times its radius, but more was found at around 650 AUs (James Kaler, 2001; and Rinehart et al, 1998). Even more dust is found around 12,000 AUs out, or 3,000 times the stellar radius. At about 36,000 AUs (or 1,000 times the stellar radius) or so, there is also abundant gas (James Kaler, 2001). In addition, there is a great, assymmetric shell of dust extending to at least 3.3 light-years or one parsec from the star (Baud et al, 1984). Although Betelgeuse is very large in diameter, astronomers believe that it contains no more than 20 Solar-masses so that the star has an average density less than air (University of Leicester Astronomy Society). )

I find it very interesting that the stars density is less than air! How can that be? It's just a giant poof ball :wink:

Orin

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by orin stepanek » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:28 pm

More information on this giant. http://www.solstation.com/x-objects/betelgeuse.htm

Orin

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by bystander » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:06 pm

cwmdavis wrote:Does anyone 'out there' understand the structure of the image, that is, what is star and what is the gas plume? I'd assume the face of the star was the white ball in the center, but it strikes me as too large, even for a very large telescope.
I think you are correct in assumming the white ball is the star. I think the green extending to the right is what they are calling the plume. The scale of the picture may be deceiving.

http://www.eso.org/public/outreach/pres ... 27-09.html
http://www.eso.org/gallery/v/ESOPIA/Sta ... s.tif.html
http://www.eso.org/gallery/v/ESOPIA/ill ... s.tif.html

Re: Betelgeuse Resolved (Aug 5 2009)

by cwmdavis » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:46 pm

Does anyone 'out there' understand the structure of the image, that is, what is star and what is the gas plume? I'd assume the face of the star was the white ball in the center, but it strikes me as too large, even for a very large telescope.

C Wm Davis

Re: Beetle Juice Resolved

by bystander » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:42 pm

JuanAustin wrote:What's the nearest star(s) most likely to explode and what effects would we see, hear or feel here on earth?
http://asterisk.apod.com/vie ... 60#p107160

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