The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

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Expand view Topic review: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by aristarchusinexile » Fri May 01, 2009 7:01 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: You'll need to explain better what that even means before I can try answering the question.
Fudge factors to sweeten the way the math fits the theory.[/quote]
That is still no explanation that I can respond to.[/quote]

Your response would be shiny wrapping paper for fudge anyway.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by Chris Peterson » Fri May 01, 2009 3:03 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:
aristarchusinexile wrote:And if the test is subject to free variables, what is the purpose of the math?
You'll need to explain better what that even means before I can try answering the question.
Fudge factors to sweeten the way the math fits the theory.
That is still no explanation that I can respond to.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by aristarchusinexile » Fri May 01, 2009 2:32 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
aristarchusinexile wrote:As well, if math cannot prove the physics, what is the reason for the test?
Math provides a consistency of expression. Certainly, if the math doesn't work, either the idea is wrong, or the mapping of the idea to that math is wrong. That is important knowledge, either way. Math can work fine, of course, without proving any physical truths. But no physical theory can be considered complete until it can be rigorously described in the language of mathematics, so that anybody can test that theory and its predictions.
And if the test is subject to free variables, what is the purpose of the math?
You'll need to explain better what that even means before I can try answering the question.
Fudge factors to sweeten the way the math fits the theory.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by Chris Peterson » Fri May 01, 2009 2:29 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:As well, if math cannot prove the physics, what is the reason for the test?
Math provides a consistency of expression. Certainly, if the math doesn't work, either the idea is wrong, or the mapping of the idea to that math is wrong. That is important knowledge, either way. Math can work fine, of course, without proving any physical truths. But no physical theory can be considered complete until it can be rigorously described in the language of mathematics, so that anybody can test that theory and its predictions.
And if the test is subject to free variables, what is the purpose of the math?
You'll need to explain better what that even means before I can try answering the question.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by aristarchusinexile » Fri May 01, 2009 2:12 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
aristarchusinexile wrote:What I commented on was your comment that math "is critical for any expression of new ideas in physics." Ideas can be presented in any language. Math is only critical to present those ideas to those whose basis of understanding is math, including those who do not have Einstein's ability of picturing ideas in their mind. Math, by the way, seems to rarely prove anything in physics, because free variables (I think that's the accepted term for fudging) seem to be included in most formulas .. very often more than two free variables.
New ideas in physics are often born without involving math, but they are incomplete until framed mathematically. You'll note, for instance, that regardless of how Einstein came up with his ideas initially, he- alone or with help- expressed everything mathematically before publishing.

I cannot think of a single component of physics that does not require math in order to be fully described.

You misunderstand things if you think the purpose of math here is to "prove" anything. It is a symbolic language that allows the ideas to be formally manipulated and tested, something that is impossible in any linguistic language.
I was commenting on your comment "is critical for any expression of new ideas in physics." You are going beyond your comment. As well, if math cannot prove the physics, what is the reason for the test? And if the test is subject to free variables, what is the purpose of the math? I appreciate that you are talking 'approximations', but wonder if you have that same appreciation, and that approximations are attainable without math. However, I do appreciate that it is math which allows Cassini to give us such great photos of Saturn, and I appreciate that this discussion is based on our disparity in views of what science is, and that each of us may bennefit from the other's view, blah blah blah.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by Chris Peterson » Fri May 01, 2009 1:46 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:What I commented on was your comment that math "is critical for any expression of new ideas in physics." Ideas can be presented in any language. Math is only critical to present those ideas to those whose basis of understanding is math, including those who do not have Einstein's ability of picturing ideas in their mind. Math, by the way, seems to rarely prove anything in physics, because free variables (I think that's the accepted term for fudging) seem to be included in most formulas .. very often more than two free variables.
New ideas in physics are often born without involving math, but they are incomplete until framed mathematically. You'll note, for instance, that regardless of how Einstein came up with his ideas initially, he- alone or with help- expressed everything mathematically before publishing.

I cannot think of a single component of physics that does not require math in order to be fully described.

You misunderstand things if you think the purpose of math here is to "prove" anything. It is a symbolic language that allows the ideas to be formally manipulated and tested, something that is impossible in any linguistic language.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by aristarchusinexile » Fri May 01, 2009 1:34 pm

Dr. Skeptic wrote: Having gifted subordinates or colleagues proof-out the mathematics (or lab work) is a common academic practice beneficial to student and mentor alike. Because Einstein used assistance with mathematics should in no way imply he needed it.
According to what I have read he needed it at times because he found it beyond his capabilities .. in one instance, I seem to recall, giving Bhors the task. We are not all gifted alike .. Einstein's greatest gift seems to have been his imagination .. his abilility to conceive (rather, perceive) ideas and present them to himself in images in his mind.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by aristarchusinexile » Fri May 01, 2009 1:31 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
aristarchusinexile wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:It doesn't matter. The point is, in every major publication, Einstein's ideas were fully supported by rigorous mathematical analysis. As such, they were presented in the common symbolic language of science, and therefore accessible to everyone for review. That is critical for any expression of new ideas in physics.
In your opinion of course.
It is not my opinion that math is the common language of physics. That's a simple fact.
What I commented on was your comment that math "is critical for any expression of new ideas in physics." Ideas can be presented in any language. Math is only critical to present those ideas to those whose basis of understanding is math, including those who do not have Einstein's ability of picturing ideas in their mind. Math, by the way, seems to rarely prove anything in physics, because free variables (I think that's the accepted term for fudging) seem to be included in most formulas .. very often more than two free variables.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by Dr. Skeptic » Fri May 01, 2009 11:42 am

aristarchusinexile wrote:
bystander wrote:
aristarchusinexile wrote:Einstein also was said to be poor in math
Einstein was one of the most brilliant mathematicians of our times.
See: Did Einstein flunk math?
More than one of the books I have read have Einstein asking more gifted friends to work out difficult math problems for him.

Did Einstein think in pictures rather than words? http://www.time.com/time/2007/einstein/4.html
Having gifted subordinates or colleagues proof-out the mathematics (or lab work) is a common academic practice beneficial to student and mentor alike. Because Einstein used assistance with mathematics should in no way imply he needed it.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by Chris Peterson » Fri May 01, 2009 12:04 am

aristarchusinexile wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote:It doesn't matter. The point is, in every major publication, Einstein's ideas were fully supported by rigorous mathematical analysis. As such, they were presented in the common symbolic language of science, and therefore accessible to everyone for review. That is critical for any expression of new ideas in physics.
In your opinion of course.
It is not my opinion that math is the common language of physics. That's a simple fact.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by aristarchusinexile » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:09 pm

Chris Peterson wrote:
aristarchusinexile wrote:More than one of the books I have read have Einstein asking more gifted friends to work out difficult math problems for him.
I doesn't matter. The point is, in every major publication, Einstein's ideas were fully supported by rigorous mathematical analysis. As such, they were presented in the common symbolic language of science, and therefore accessible to everyone for review. That is critical for any expression of new ideas in physics.
In your opinion of course.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:03 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:More than one of the books I have read have Einstein asking more gifted friends to work out difficult math problems for him.
I doesn't matter. The point is, in every major publication, Einstein's ideas were fully supported by rigorous mathematical analysis. As such, they were presented in the common symbolic language of science, and therefore accessible to everyone for review. That is critical for any expression of new ideas in physics.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by aristarchusinexile » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:42 pm

bystander wrote:
aristarchusinexile wrote:Einstein also was said to be poor in math
Einstein was one of the most brilliant mathematicians of our times.
See: Did Einstein flunk math?
More than one of the books I have read have Einstein asking more gifted friends to work out difficult math problems for him.

Did Einstein think in pictures rather than words? http://www.time.com/time/2007/einstein/4.html

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by bystander » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:04 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:Einstein also was said to be poor in math
Einstein was one of the most brilliant mathematicians of our times.
See: Did Einstein flunk math?

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by Chris Peterson » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:56 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:Theory is not needed for a Dad to teach his Son how to hit a nail with a hammer .. demonstration is needed.
Hitting a nail with a hammer is a procedure, it isn't an observation from nature that requires explanation. Your example has nothing at all to do with science.
Science is not all theory. There are items known as 'facts' and items known as 'demonstrations'.
The entire purpose of science is to explain nature, and that is done through the development of theories. Without theory, you don't have science. There are no facts in science. There are observations, and there are theories that attempt to explain those observations. Demonstrations (or experiments) are simply tools to connect the theories and observations.
Math is great stuff; but how come Faraday's peers with their excellent educations in math couldn't conceive of what he conceived, and derided him for his conceptions?
Because until his ideas were converted to a symbolic language so that everybody could work with them, there was no way to evaluate them. Once his observations were converted to formal theory, which could be tested, acceptance followed quickly.

Faraday was a smart guy, and his insight is what led to his discoveries. Math doesn't automatically give you that kind of insight, but neither does it limit insight. As I said before, it's just a tool. IMO if Faraday had been more mathematically capable, his progress would have been faster, and his ideas would have gained acceptance sooner.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by aristarchusinexile » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:25 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: No, the observations were accepted as being of good quality. It didn't become usable theory until the observations could be described mathematically, and that math could be used to predict other observations.
Theory is not needed for a Dad to teach his Son how to hit a nail with a hammer .. demonstration is needed.
Chris wrote: No, of course not. It would only mean that the theory was wrong, and people would have kept looking until they found a theory that worked. That happens all the time. Somebody makes an observation, they or somebody else attempts to define the underlying rule, and that is tested. If it works, the rule gains support; if it doesn't, the rule loses support, or is completely rejected. That, in a nutshell, is how modern science works.
Science is not all theory. There are items known as 'facts' and items known as 'demonstrations'. Theory is wonderful from a theoretical point of view .. I have great respect for mine, even if some scientists don't classify them as theories.
At least one biographer has written that if Faraday had been able to do calculus he would never have been able to think imaginatively enough to conceive of what he saw clearly.
That strikes me as a pretty silly observation. Math is just a tool- it has nothing to do one way or the other with how imaginatively somebody can think. If he had been able to do more of his own analysis, it's likely the work would have entered the mainstream faster.[/quote]

Math is great stuff; but how come Faraday's peers with their excellent educations in math couldn't conceive of what he conceived, and derided him for his conceptions? Because their heads were locked on a blackboard instead of roaming space and time. 1 + 1 = 2 doesn't leave room for imagination. Einstein also was said to be poor in math, working outside the normal parametres of scientific thought. Entering the mainstream of science, Chris, means getting around the high, hardened wall of the pride of consensus .. a formidable task even for the mathematically gifted.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by The Code » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:55 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincar%C3 ... ce_theorem

I do not think of time like most. if a black hole event horizon can stop physics dead. The BB was how many times more power full? millions? billions? Black holes do explode but they do not create another universe? If a black hole distorts time which they believe, what did the big bang do to time? Created it? All of it, past and future in one bang. All time is one room that can be accessed by all powerful?. This is my view and does not represent main stream physics theories.

Mark

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:07 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:Faraday's work was totally accepted before it was put into math because he demonstrated it clearly without the math.
No, the observations were accepted as being of good quality. It didn't become usable theory until the observations could be described mathematically, and that math could be used to predict other observations.
If the math had not supported the demonstrations, would the demonstration be wrong?
No, of course not. It would only mean that the theory was wrong, and people would have kept looking until they found a theory that worked. That happens all the time. Somebody makes an observation, they or somebody else attempts to define the underlying rule, and that is tested. If it works, the rule gains support; if it doesn't, the rule loses support, or is completely rejected. That, in a nutshell, is how modern science works.
At least one biographer has written that if Faraday had been able to do calculus he would never have been able to think imaginatively enough to conceive of what he saw clearly.
That strikes me as a pretty silly observation. Math is just a tool- it has nothing to do one way or the other with how imaginatively somebody can think. If he had been able to do more of his own analysis, it's likely the work would have entered the mainstream faster.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by aristarchusinexile » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:47 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Faraday is a great example of how science progresses. His work was quite rapidly put into a testable, rigorous, mathematical framework, which is why it was (and is) accepted.
Faraday's work was totally accepted before it was put into math because he demonstrated it clearly without the math. If the math had not supported the demonstrations, would the demonstration be wrong? At least one biographer has written that if Faraday had been able to do calculus he would never have been able to think imaginatively enough to conceive of what he saw clearly.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:17 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: There is nothing in classical thermodynamics that prevents an increase in order. Life would not exist if that were not possible! But entropy in an isolated system never decreases. That's the Second Law, and it sure as heck hasn't been violated experimentally. And there are similar examples to be found in many places.
Read more.
Fine. Tell me where to read about the Second Law of Thermodynamics being violated.
Chris wrote: If you can't put that in a mathematical framework, so it can be evaluated against some theory, there's not much that can be said.
Tell that to Michael Faraday.
Faraday is a great example of how science progresses. His work was quite rapidly put into a testable, rigorous, mathematical framework, which is why it was (and is) accepted.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by Chris Peterson » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:13 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:I'm glad you said "for the most part..." Bystander, because some PHDs say we absolutely can travel back in time
Nobody who understands anything at all about science would make such a claim. That's because nobody who understands anything about science would use "absolutely" to describe how possible something might be.

There are weak theories (that is, theories that don't produce testable predictions, or which are extremely difficult to test) that allow for the possibility of "time travel". That's all.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by aristarchusinexile » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:07 pm

bystander wrote: For the most part, current theory allows time to flow in one direction only (arrow of time). There was no time before t=0. Time came into existance with the rest of the physical universe.
I'm glad you said "for the most part..." Bystander, because some PHDs say we absolutely can travel back in time (Turock, I believe, is one of those) and that time does have a reverse flow (Moffat). Also, I find the phrase "the time before the Big Bnag" repeated fairly often in my reading of PHD written material.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by aristarchusinexile » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:03 pm

Markus Schwarz wrote:True, at least to my knowledge, Faraday did not have much of a mathematical education. But he published a lot of experimental results that other people could reproduce. And based on his findings other people finally found the mathematical framework that Faraday could not. So, if you know of some experiment which violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics in a closed system then give us the reference! Otherwise a further discussion on that topic seems pointless to me.
Discussion on any topic can point to important knowledge, for instance, that even though Faraday couldn't do the calculus his peers could (and for that he was derided) his name became the most important in his era of science, and one of the most important in ours, perhaps most important because of his discovery of Fields. Math is of no doubt important; but for someone to value math too highly shows a narrow range of opportunity for that person. (!) I would discuss thermodynamics more, but I don't make notes of most of my reading.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by bystander » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:28 pm

mark swain wrote:If our ''space time'' universe, can stretch for 47 billion light years. And it is possible to go forward in time via speed of light..Is it also possible that time can go the other way (back in time past the event horizon) and that the moment after t=0 all time was created in one instant? thanks
For the most part, current theory allows time to flow in one direction only (arrow of time). There was no time before t=0. Time came into existance with the rest of the physical universe.

Re: The View Near a Black Hole (April 19, 2009)

by The Code » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:15 pm

Markus brilliant read thanks.

If our ''space time'' universe, can stretch for 47 billion light years. And it is possible to go forward in time via speed of light..Is it also possible that time can go the other way (back in time past the event horizon) and that the moment after t=0 all time was created in one instant? thanks

mark

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