Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

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Expand view Topic review: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by aristarchusinexile » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:23 pm

JohnD wrote:
aristarchusinexile wrote:Yes. But remember, I'm not saying "for sure there are canals" .. I'm only saying "it is my belief there are canals."

Well that's alright then.
You have faith.
No point in discussing it any more.

John
My desire for this discussion is mostly that I might learn, to be involved in exploration. As an example, I've learned that Ground Penetrating Radar penetrates ice far better than dry sand. I only said "it is my belief there are canals" to reveal I am not basing on view on scientific evidence, and that I am not being dictatorial in demanding others hold my belief. So, I hope the discussion will go on, as Mars is a fascinating planet.

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by JohnD » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:08 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:Yes. But remember, I'm not saying "for sure there are canals" .. I'm only saying "it is my belief there are canals."

Well that's alright then.
You have faith.
No point in discussing it any more.

John

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by neufer » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:49 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Keep in mind that the first images showing canali were made only a bit over a century ago. And the first good photographs showing the surface (with no canali) were made within a few decades of that. Is it really reasonable that all these structures were completely covered with sand in such a short time?
The eye is an efficient photo detector that can react in 1/10 second to capture a fleeting lull in the turbulent distortions of ground based telescope. It was probably not until Mariner that we could be sure that the canali some observers said that they had seen really didn't exist.

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by aristarchusinexile » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:11 pm

neufer wrote:
“All Snickers made at Waco will be truly green,” said Todd Lachman, president of Mars Snackfood U.S., at the kick-off celebration in May, “not in color, but in the way in which they are manufactured. Snickers, Starburst and Skittles will all be made in a plant powered in large part by renewable energy.”
Snicker .. all greens made at Snickers will be truly Whacko?

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by aristarchusinexile » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:08 pm

Chris Peterson wrote: Keep in mind that the first images showing canali were made only a bit over a century ago. And the first good photographs showing the surface (with no canali) were made within a few decades of that. Is it really reasonable that all these structures were completely covered with sand in such a short time?
Yes. But remember, I'm not saying "for sure there are canals" .. I'm only saying "it is my belief there are canals."

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by neufer » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:13 pm

JohnD wrote:
Chris Peterson wrote: Keep in mind that the first images showing canali were made only a bit over a century ago. And the first good photographs showing the surface (with no canali) were made within a few decades of that. Is it really reasonable that all these structures were completely covered with sand in such a short time?
Those early "images" were just that, artistic impressions drawn by hand.
http://www.delmonicositaliansteakhouse. ... li-big.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannoli wrote:
Cannoli are Sicilian pastry desserts. The singular is cannolo (or in sicilian language cannolu), meaning “little tube”, with the etymology stemming from the Latin "canna", or reed. Originating in the Palermo area, cannoli were historically prepared as a treat during Carnevale season, possibly as a fertility symbol; one legend assigns their origin to the harem of Caltanissetta. The dessert eventually became a year-round staple throughout what is now Italy. As with Sicilian cassata, Sicilian cannoli probably date back to the time of Arab domination.

Cannoli consist of tube-shaped shells of fried pastry dough, filled with a sweet, creamy filling usually containing ricotta cheese (or alternatively, but less traditionally, sweetened Mascarpone) blended with some combination of vanilla, chocolate, pistachio, Marsala wine, rosewater or other flavorings. Some chefs add chopped succade or chocolate chips. They range in size from "cannulicchi", no bigger than a finger, to the fist-sized proportions typically found in Piana degli Albanesi, south of Palermo, Sicily. Sometimes cannoli can be found with the shells dipped in chocolate, in addition to being stuffed with filling.
------------------------------------------------
http://www.mars.com/global/News+and+Media/News+archive/Waco+Landfill.htm wrote:
Local landfill a green energy source for Mars
10 July 2008 - United States

<<As part of a company-wide effort to reduce its environmental footprint around the world, Mars, Incorporated is striving to make its operations more sustainable at every level. As a recent example, one of the company’s largest U.S. snack food plants located in Waco, Texas has converted 60% of its heating fuel source from natural gas to methane gas harvested from the city landfill. With enough supply to power the plant’s boilers for the next 25 years, Mars is significantly reducing its carbon footprint and production costs. Using renewable methane will save the company over half a million dollars a year. It will also reduce the plant’s annual greenhouse gas emissions by more than 10,000 metric tons. That is equivalent to removing 1,900 cars from the road.

“All Snickers made at Waco will be truly green,” said Todd Lachman, president of Mars Snackfood U.S., at the kick-off celebration in May, “not in color, but in the way in which they are manufactured. Snickers, Starburst and Skittles will all be made in a plant powered in large part by renewable energy.”

Replacing natural gas with methane rather than other green energy sources provides a double benefit for the city of Waco and the environment, since city landfills account for the second largest source of human-related methane emissions in the U.S. . “Using all the methane that the landfill produces solves a local and a global environmental problem,” said David Prybylowski, sustainability director for Mars Snackfood US. “Mars is removing methane emissions in the city, eliminating the risk of combustion and reducing powerful global warming gasses.”

The natural byproduct of decomposing organic matter, methane is 20 times more potent a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide and is also highly flammable. Because of these physical and environmental concerns, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) mandates that municipalities and counties capture and mitigate methane gases once landfills reach a certain size. Mars helps Waco do just that by recycling this material for fuel.

The project originally began as the idea of now-retired Mars associate Norm Burgess. As a Waco site engineer, Burgess developed a proposal for fueling the plant with landfill methane in the late 1990s. In time, all the necessary partners and pieces to make his idea a reality came together, culminating in May of this year when the methane-powered boilers were ignited. Methane is harvested through wells and piped from the city landfill to the Mars plant five miles away. At present, 56 wells supply 60% of the plant’s heating fuel needs, and there are plans to dig another 10 wells to increase capacity.>>

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by JohnD » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:24 am

Chris Peterson wrote: Keep in mind that the first images showing canali were made only a bit over a century ago. And the first good photographs showing the surface (with no canali) were made within a few decades of that. Is it really reasonable that all these structures were completely covered with sand in such a short time?
Those early "images" were just that, artistic impressions drawn by hand.
Comparing them with today's high resolution photographs is not comparing like with like.

John

Mars Barchans 20 April

by Allen » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:03 am

LIFE ON MARS?? SCIENTISTS FIND FACE BURIED IN SANDS OF MARS!!!
Super site - best wishes - Allen

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by Chris Peterson » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:46 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:But...If there were canals there (as indicated in the sketch from 100+ years ago) the sand filling them wouldn't be thick enough to fill them completely and they would still be visible. Further, the sand filling them after 100 years would't be hardened enough to block radar signals. Then there is the fact that for these fetures to have been visible to the extent indicated in the old map, they would need to have been impressively large and deep. To have been visible from Earth, they would easily need to be deeper and wider than the "Eagle Crater" where Opportunity landed which if they were filled in by sand, that crater also would have been filled in. If eagle crater still exists (unfilled) then a global canal system should be easily discernable. Therefore, It doesn't exist (yet)
All good points, and there are more. Keep in mind that the first images showing canali were made only a bit over a century ago. And the first good photographs showing the surface (with no canali) were made within a few decades of that. Is it really reasonable that all these structures were completely covered with sand in such a short time? We've been looking at Mars in exquisite detail for about 50 years, and we've never seen a global sandstorm cover anything. We've never even seen a local sandstorm cover anything. Winds on Mars just shift the sand around a little. All of our landers have found exposed surface dating back billions of years. Hard to see how that could be possible if sand had completely covered every remnant of "canals" in just a few decades.

There was an interesting article in Sky & Telescope a few years ago about the canali. It made a strong case that Schiaparelli (and others) were simply seeing the pattern of blood vessels on their retinas superimposed on the planet. I can easily see that effect on the Moon and on a highly magnified Jupiter (but I haven't tried on Mars).

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by kovil » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:26 pm

Thanks APOD for another truly great photo of Mars and its incredible landscape !!!!!

As I often complain about the description's assumptions of what we are seeing, I unconditionally love the photos !!!!!
Congratulations on finding a great photo!

I would venture an estimate that the dunes are 100-200 meters long and 20-30 meters high, the individual Barchan dunes that is.
They tell us what is happening on the surface of Mars, but can we correctly interpret what we are seeing?
This would sure make a nice wall photo in a 4'x5' size !

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by BMAONE23 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:02 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:
BMAONE23 wrote: (re: the rocks that resembled creatures)
I would like to see that image
I would love to see it again, BMA. It was so remarkable I can remember it clearly.
Perhaps it would be found in the early Spirit Rover Images
Or was it in the early Opportunity Images
Or perhaps it was from the Pathfinder Mission

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by JohnD » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:26 pm

I said they were burried, didn't I!?
!?!?!?!?!?!????!??!!?!??
!?!?!?!?!?!!??!!?!?!?
!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
!?!?!?!
?!!?
?

The !?s were supposed to be an inverted period, but the danged calmpooper is rearranging the lines.
But aris, buried doesn't mean invisible, especially from on high. On Earth, "field markings" have been a well used tool of archaeology since planes began to fly. Invisble from ground level, such markings may be obvious from above, especially if there are crops in the ground (not on Mars!) or if the sun is rising or setting, so that the light glances across the ground at an extreme angle, casting long shadows. Search for "Aerial Archaeology" for many examples.

So, again, I challenge you to substantiate your thesis, that the Martian canals were real, and that they are now full of sand.
This is supposed to be a scientific website, where theories are based on evidence, not imagination.

Wierdly, in searching for an example, I came across: http://airminded.org/2009/03/15/the-can ... mars-1962/
Even in 1962, NASA was preparing copies of Mars maps showing the Schiaperelli/Lowell canals to help with the first Mariner missions - they had nothing better to go on!

John

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by BMAONE23 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:16 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:
BMAONE23 wrote:
Here is an image from the Mars Express website indicating the radar imaging MARSIS is capable of penetrating over 3.7Km
The Wiki article said GPR pentrates ice easily, but not sand. Your images are of the south polar ice, BMA. Still, I'm surprised Wiki is so far wrong. Perhaps someone with scientific credentials should correct the entry.
But...If there were canals there (as indicated in the sketch from 100+ years ago) the sand filling them wouldn't be thick enough to fill them completely and they would still be visible. Further, the sand filling them after 100 years would't be hardened enough to block radar signals. Then there is the fact that for these fetures to have been visible to the extent indicated in the old map, they would need to have been impressively large and deep. To have been visible from Earth, they would easily need to be deeper and wider than the "Eagle Crater" where Opportunity landed which if they were filled in by sand, that crater also would have been filled in. If eagle crater still exists (unfilled) then a global canal system should be easily discernable. Therefore, It doesn't exist (yet)

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by aristarchusinexile » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:00 pm

neufer wrote:
aristarchusinexile wrote:
neufer wrote: Is the methane observed on Mars Martian B&O?
B&O or B.O.?
BO Obama.
Is that a FO or an Ag'inst.

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by neufer » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:51 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:
neufer wrote: Is the methane observed on Mars Martian B&O?
B&O or B.O.?
BO Obama.

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by aristarchusinexile » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:48 pm

BMAONE23 wrote:
Here is an image from the Mars Express website indicating the radar imaging MARSIS is capable of penetrating over 3.7Km
The Wiki article said GPR pentrates ice easily, but not sand. Your images are of the south polar ice, BMA. Still, I'm surprised Wiki is so far wrong. Perhaps someone with scientific credentials should correct the entry.

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by aristarchusinexile » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:39 pm

neufer wrote: Is the methane observed on Mars Martian B&O?
B&O or B.O.?

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by aristarchusinexile » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:38 pm

JohnD wrote: Rather than counter your proposal with pictures of nineteenth century Washington street plans, may I suggest that you search the 'net for the very many photographs, to a resolution of half a metre, that are available? For instance look at the HiRise website, which contains 9432 images at present.

If you can find anything - anything! - that can be interpreted as the buried remains of an artificial canal, then you will be short listed for a Nobel. But you won't.

John

PS just to make it easy for you: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/
I said they were burried, didn't I!?
!?!?!?!?!?!????!??!!?!??
!?!?!?!?!?!!??!!?!?!?
!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
!?!?!?!
?!!?
?

The !?s were supposed to be an inverted period, but the danged calmpooper is rearranging the lines.

Canal Knowledge

by neufer » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:21 am

JohnD wrote:Rather than counter your proposal with pictures of nineteenth century Washington street plans,
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030411.html
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_003443_0980

JohnD wrote:may I suggest that you search the 'net for the very many photographs, to a resolution of half a metre, that are available? For instance look at the HiRise website, which contains 9432 images at present. If you can find anything - anything! - that can be interpreted as the buried remains of an artificial canal, then you will be short listed for a Nobel. But you won't.

PS just to make it easy for you: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/
Image
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_008311_1835

http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_005720_1885
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_007055_1450
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_007925_1990
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_004992_1635

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by JohnD » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:03 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:I propose that early hand drawn images of Mars showing canals may have been accurate, the canals filled in by blowing sand. The canals may have been dug as a 'last ditch' effort to save a civilization threatened by climate change, the remnants of that civilization now living underground, possibly accessed by the large 'rabbit holes' photographed by the orbiters. I also suggest we will find creatures living on the surface of Mars, and that a pair of those creatures situated side-by-side and looking directly at the lander, were actually photographed by the first lander, the creatures announced as 'boulders' in press releases.
Rather than counter your proposal with pictures of nineteenth century Washington street plans, may I suggest that you search the 'net for the very many photographs, to a resolution of half a metre, that are available? For instance look at the HiRise website, which contains 9432 images at present.

If you can find anything - anything! - that can be interpreted as the buried remains of an artificial canal, then you will be short listed for a Nobel. But you won't.

John

PS just to make it easy for you: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by neufer » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:35 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:I propose that early hand drawn images of Mars showing canals may have been accurate, the canals filled in by blowing sand. The canals may have been dug as a 'last ditch' effort to save a civilization threatened by climate change, the remnants of that civilization now living underground, possibly accessed by the large 'rabbit holes' photographed by the orbiters. I also suggest we will find creatures living on the surface of Mars, and that a pair of those creatures situated side-by-side and looking directly at the lander, were actually photographed by the first lander, the creatures announced as 'boulders' in press releases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_Avenue wrote:
<<In Washington, D.C., Constitution Avenue is a major east-west street running just north of the United States Capitol in the city's Northwest and Northeast quadrants. The avenue carries heavy commuter traffic on weekdays and heavy tourist traffic on the weekends; it is also an important parade route. The segment of Constitution Avenue west of Pennsylvania Avenue was once the Washington Canal. Construction on the canal, which was part of Pierre L'Enfant's original plan for the city, began in 1810.

Image

Tiber Creek was transformed into the Washington Canal, which ran along what is today Constitution Avenue, eventually working its way towards the U.S. Capitol. It is believed that early city plans called for an extensive network of canals snaking through the Northeast corridor of the United States. In 1872, the canal was converted to an underground tunnel; it had become common for Washington residents to throw their garbage into it, and the unsanitary conditions became a health concern. Additionally, plans for an extensive canal system were abandoned around this time in favor of a railroad system that would connect Washington to the West. These canal plans were not successful; after completion of the B&O Railroad, city officials abandoned their plans for a rail system. The canal was converted to a tunnel and paved over.>>
Is the methane observed on Mars Martian B&O?

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by JohnD » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:31 pm

See a bigger picture, with scales, on the HiRise site: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_007676_1385

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by BMAONE23 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:16 pm

aristarchusinexile wrote:According to a regular APOD poster depths of three kilometres on Mars have been imaged by Ground Penetrating Radar, yet according to Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_penetrating_radar "Optimal depth penetration is achieved in ice where the depth of penetration can achieve several hundred meters. Good penetration is also achieved in dry sandy soils or massive dry materials such as granite, limestone, and concrete where the depth of penetration could be up to 15 m. In moist and/or clay-laden soils and soils with high electrical conductivity, penetration is sometimes only a few centimetres."

I propose that early hand drawn images of Mars showing canals may have been accurate, the canals filled in by blowing sand. The canals may have been dug as a 'last ditch' effort to save a civilization threatened by climate change, the remnants of that civilization now living underground, possibly accessed by the large 'rabbit holes' photographed by the orbiters. I also suggest we will find creatures living on the surface of Mars, and that a pair of those creatures situated side-by-side and looking directly at the lander, were actually photographed by the first lander, the creatures announced as 'boulders' in press releases.
Here is an image from the Mars Express website indicating the radar imaging MARSIS is capable of penetrating over 3.7Km

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by bystander » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:20 pm

spaceLance wrote:Am I missing something?
Must be! Suggest you go to HIRISE Barchans!

Re: Scale for Picture: Barchans on Mars (2009 April 20)

by spaceLance » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:15 pm

Dudes. That looks like some blatant photoshoppery going on there. Am I missing something?

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